**** Kingpin (Wilson Fisk) **** Updated (8/22/17)

Vhailorx

Blahahah wrote:

Polares wrote:

I agree with both Blahahah and atomzed, KP is a very solid character, he sits nicely in the good-tier, BUT recently devs have released some very good 4s that are better than him. One problem he has now is that he was BFF of xpool before they 'nerfed' his black so he no longer destroyed xpool tiles. This was a big nerf for him, because those two together were a really good duo.

Iceman, IMHB, Jean, Rhulk, Cyclops, xpool, Punisher, Peggy, Nova, Quake, 4hor, Kate, thing and then maybe even ProfX, Antman and x23 are probably better (or more useful) than KP. I think he now sits together with Carnage, WinterS, Miles, Gwen, Drax, etc. that are those 4s that can be used over other good 4s when buffed as long as you don't have any top tier (well buffing to 370 now is quite a difference so I guess now they can be used always when buffed).

I disagree with IMHB being above KP. IMO KP is faster and pumping out yellow is better than needing to be fed black. IF anything I'd put IMHB on the "maybe better" and x23 in the "definitely better". By the time IMHB gets his engine started, KP could have dealt a little over 11k for the same cost (provided you have consistent CD providers) and doesn't have to pour it all into one person. Might just be me, but when Drax is FASTER than the character, has more health and damage baseline which doesn't require him to punch himself in the face for 2k? That's a character whose had his time in the sun and it's time to retire. Power creep ahoy.

Again, you are glossing over the ap cost of the countdown and the opportunity cost of not letting the CD have it's intended effect. To say nothing of the strike tiles. Imhb black is much much better than kp black, it's not even close.

KP's major use now is as the best yellow battery in the game. He has some utility in that he is a relatively rare color combo. Otherwise there is basically always better option. He's mediocre; good but not great.

OneLastGambit

Vhailorx wrote:

Blahahah wrote:

Polares wrote:

I agree with both Blahahah and atomzed, KP is a very solid character, he sits nicely in the good-tier, BUT recently devs have released some very good 4s that are better than him. One problem he has now is that he was BFF of xpool before they 'nerfed' his black so he no longer destroyed xpool tiles. This was a big nerf for him, because those two together were a really good duo.

Iceman, IMHB, Jean, Rhulk, Cyclops, xpool, Punisher, Peggy, Nova, Quake, 4hor, Kate, thing and then maybe even ProfX, Antman and x23 are probably better (or more useful) than KP. I think he now sits together with Carnage, WinterS, Miles, Gwen, Drax, etc. that are those 4s that can be used over other good 4s when buffed as long as you don't have any top tier (well buffing to 370 now is quite a difference so I guess now they can be used always when buffed).

I disagree with IMHB being above KP. IMO KP is faster and pumping out yellow is better than needing to be fed black. IF anything I'd put IMHB on the "maybe better" and x23 in the "definitely better". By the time IMHB gets his engine started, KP could have dealt a little over 11k for the same cost (provided you have consistent CD providers) and doesn't have to pour it all into one person. Might just be me, but when Drax is FASTER than the character, has more health and damage baseline which doesn't require him to punch himself in the face for 2k? That's a character whose had his time in the sun and it's time to retire. Power creep ahoy.

Again, you are glossing over the ap cost of the cooldown and the opportunity cost of not letting the CD have it's intended effect. To say nothing of the strike tiles. Imhb black is much much better than kp black, it's not even close.

KP's major use now is as the best yellow battery in the game. He has some utility in that he is a relatively rare color combo. Otherwise there is basically always better option. He's mediocre; good but not great.

I use hb black to power falcap red...in all honesty imhb is pretty tame now in 4* but his black and blue are very useful for poering other better red users

Mawtful

I quite like KP. Even though he's not top tier, I think he's got one of the more interesting ability sets in the game. A champed KP will get good mileage out of being able to respec abilities, and if there were more "Puzzle" in MPQ, he'd probably get pushed a little higher up in the ranking.

He's somewhat self sufficient (generates AP in a colour he can use, and generates countdowns which can increase damage from Black), but just not in quite as an impressive way as, say, Cyclops. I think the main "problem" is that he doesn't really have any particular synergy with the top of the tier.

I've had a lot of fun grouping him with Flaptain and Quake. With KP specced 3/5/5, my focus is on gathering Purple > Yellow to create Maggia CDs as soon as possible. After that, gathering Blue speeds those goons up and gives me fuel for Quake. For survival nodes, I found myself using Flaptain's Yellow first, since that helped mitigate match/single target damage while Quake's passive was mitigating AoE damage.

Polares

Mawtful wrote:

...
I think the main "problem" is that he doesn't really have any particular synergy with the top of the tier.

He had GREAT synergy with xpool, but for some stupid reason (the one the gave made no sense), they decided to change that. It was one of the greatest combos, get 12 black and 7 purple, fire xpool purple, fire two KP blacks for 11k+3k damage. Really nice.

Devs should bring back this combo...

SnowcaTT

I had three covers somehow in queue last season and champed him so I wouldn't feel bad about selling them.

Instead I feel bad about champing him and "wasting" the ISO - with all the old better 5*'s already champed, I have no idea when I'll ever use him. Maybe someday he'll be buffed alongside Cho/IW/Elecktra/SL.....

Kjeldbjerg

I have the same problem. Keep pulling covers for him, but just know I'll regret champing him, because I can't picture a scenario where I'd use him. So I sell them immediately, to avoid temptation.

Now, if iso flow was better...

Quebbster

Quebbster wrote:

OK, so my Kingpin is speced the way I want him (5/3/5) and I have the ISO to max him. Is there any good reason not to do it now that he's boosted? I have fine maxed fourstars - Wolverine, Nick Fury, Thor, Hulkbuster and Jean Grey. Most other fourstars are softcapped, at least the good ones.

I found this post I made on Christmas day last year, and to follow up I decided to max him, and I am quite pleased with that decision. It's been particularly fun to run Kingpin and Hulkbuster together when they are both boosted. It's actually more common that I use Kingpin's black than Hulkbuster's since I feel I get more damage out of the AP that way.
I'm looking forward to running him with War Machine some day, they have full rainbow coverage and should have pretty nice synergy.
In short I don't quite agree with all the harsh words against Kingpin. He's not a top character, but he is solid and can get you good results if you enjoy playing him.

atomzed

Quebbster wrote:

Quebbster wrote:

OK, so my Kingpin is speced the way I want him (5/3/5) and I have the ISO to max him. Is there any good reason not to do it now that he's boosted? I have fine maxed fourstars - Wolverine, Nick Fury, Thor, Hulkbuster and Jean Grey. Most other fourstars are softcapped, at least the good ones.

I found this post I made on Christmas day last year, and to follow up I decided to max him, and I am quite pleased with that decision. It's been particularly fun to run Kingpin and Hulkbuster together when they are both boosted. It's actually more common that I use Kingpin's black than Hulkbuster's since I feel I get more damage out of the AP that way.
I'm looking forward to running him with War Machine some day, they have full rainbow coverage and should have pretty nice synergy.
In short I don't quite agree with all the harsh words against Kingpin. He's not a top character, but he is solid and can get you good results if you enjoy playing him.

I fully agree with you. I enjoy KP whenever he is buffed. I really like his black, because it's only 6 ap and deals a lot of dmg. His yellow is fun... I like to see it resolve, with me feeling like a commander commanding soldiers.

I never regret champing him.

simonsez

atomzed wrote:

I fully agree with you. I enjoy KP whenever he is buffed. I really like his black, because it's only 6 ap and deals a lot of dmg. His yellow is fun... I like to see it resolve, with me feeling like a commander commanding soldiers.

I never regret champing him.

The problem I have is that he's never buffed in a week where there aren't better options. Like this week, are you really going to want to use his purple instead of Rhulk's? Are you really going to want to use his black when OML's black will hyperbuff Carnage's attack tiles? It's like the devs go out of their way to make the buffs redundant, trying to make sure everyone has a buffed color available to them, rather than buffing characters that might actually work well together.

Quebbster

simonsez wrote:

The problem I have is that he's never buffed in a week where there aren't better options. Like this week, are you really going to want to use his purple instead of Rhulk's? Are you really going to want to use his black when OML's black will hyperbuff Carnage's attack tiles? It's like the devs go out of their way to make the buffs redundant, trying to make sure everyone has a buffed color available to them, rather than buffing characters that might actually work well together.

I like having options. If I want to do massive damage to the entire team, I'll use Rulk. If I need to take out one guy fast Kingpin can dish out a lot of damage for only six black AP...

Vhailorx

KP's black did solid damage when released. But IMO it's a bit weak now. 9K for 6ap (if you have a disposable CD) isn't great in a world of 4* boosted champs.

15-17k (when boosted) single target damage is now solid offensive punch territorty.

I stand by my earlier position. I don't regret champ'ing KP because he serves two useful roles on my roster (yellow battery, and 3rd wheel y/b/p user to make sure I have a rainbow team)

But I very rarely build an A-team (i.e. a team to face high level PvP or hard pve nodes) around KP and am generally underwhelmed when I do.

Polares

Quebbster wrote:

simonsez wrote:

The problem I have is that he's never buffed in a week where there aren't better options. Like this week, are you really going to want to use his purple instead of Rhulk's? Are you really going to want to use his black when OML's black will hyperbuff Carnage's attack tiles? It's like the devs go out of their way to make the buffs redundant, trying to make sure everyone has a buffed color available to them, rather than buffing characters that might actually work well together.

I like having options. If I want to do massive damage to the entire team, I'll use Rulk. If I need to take out one guy fast Kingpin can dish out a lot of damage for only six black AP...

Or you bring Nova( 8K for 6AP and you send the enemy airbone) or Kate (14k for 8 AP) who are much better in general and do some serious damage really fast (and without the need for those countdowns). And I don't even include Punisher, who for 7 black AP has no limit in the amount of damage he can do...

Again, I like KP, he is very solid, but now there are much better options.

Quebbster

Polares wrote:

Quebbster wrote:

simonsez wrote:

The problem I have is that he's never buffed in a week where there aren't better options. Like this week, are you really going to want to use his purple instead of Rhulk's? Are you really going to want to use his black when OML's black will hyperbuff Carnage's attack tiles? It's like the devs go out of their way to make the buffs redundant, trying to make sure everyone has a buffed color available to them, rather than buffing characters that might actually work well together.

I like having options. If I want to do massive damage to the entire team, I'll use Rulk. If I need to take out one guy fast Kingpin can dish out a lot of damage for only six black AP...

Or you bring Nova( 8K for 6AP and you send the enemy airbone) or Kate (14k for 8 AP) who are much better in general and do some serious damage really fast (and without the need for those countdowns). And I don't even include Punisher, who for 7 black AP has no limit in the amount of damage he can do...

Again, I like KP, he is very solid, but now there are much better options.

I think I have too few black covers for Punisher. I like him fine, but he's not the "slayer of Everything" people talk about on the forums... yet. Kate is even worse off. Nova is a very fair comparison though, and I do like him a lot. The massive wall of HP that is boosted Kingpin does have its advantages too though.

Polares

Quebbster wrote:

Polares wrote:

Quebbster wrote:

simonsez wrote:

The problem I have is that he's never buffed in a week where there aren't better options. Like this week, are you really going to want to use his purple instead of Rhulk's? Are you really going to want to use his black when OML's black will hyperbuff Carnage's attack tiles? It's like the devs go out of their way to make the buffs redundant, trying to make sure everyone has a buffed color available to them, rather than buffing characters that might actually work well together.

I like having options. If I want to do massive damage to the entire team, I'll use Rulk. If I need to take out one guy fast Kingpin can dish out a lot of damage for only six black AP...

Or you bring Nova( 8K for 6AP and you send the enemy airbone) or Kate (14k for 8 AP) who are much better in general and do some serious damage really fast (and without the need for those countdowns). And I don't even include Punisher, who for 7 black AP has no limit in the amount of damage he can do...

Again, I like KP, he is very solid, but now there are much better options.

I think I have too few black covers for Punisher. I like him fine, but he's not the "slayer of Everything" people talk about on the forums... yet. Kate is even worse off. Nova is a very fair comparison though, and I do like him a lot. The massive wall of HP that is boosted Kingpin does have its advantages too though.

Punisher is really a monster, I am a 5 player, and when buffed he is good enough to play with those. My team for the last PvE where he was buffed was OML+PH+Punisher and after killing one of the enemies, green was easily doing 10k+ damage AoE, and black over 20k. If I remember it correctly in one of the fights I fired black for 35k+ damage (I think I had 10 strikes on the board so 30k + the strike damage), so when buffed he can almost one shot a maxed 5 :O

I expect just Iceman, Punisher and Peggy to be good enough to play with my 5s (Peggy's blue should be also around 30k damage when buffed if all countdowns go off + stun) until I manage to max my third 5.

Vhailorx

Polares: what about a battery 4* with your 5*s? Seems like Phoenix/oml can already deapbput damage very well. But Phoenix is only a middling battery (at 7ap, her purple is a little pricey, since it really needs 2 casts to reliably generate ap).

Rulk (when boosted) also seems like he could play 3rd wheel with your 5s as a stopgap.

Banjo

simonsez wrote:

The problem I have is that he's never buffed in a week where there aren't better options. Like this week, are you really going to want to use his purple instead of Rhulk's? Are you really going to want to use his black when OML's black will hyperbuff Carnage's attack tiles? It's like the devs go out of their way to make the buffs redundant, trying to make sure everyone has a buffed color available to them, rather than buffing characters that might actually work well together.

Or the devs might not even consider good combos when deciding on who gets buffed, not everyone has the option of picking and choosing from several champed buffed characters.

Crowl

Banjo wrote:

Or the devs might not even consider good combos when deciding on who gets buffed, not everyone has the option of picking and choosing from several champed buffed characters.

While they may not consider good combos, they do seem to like picking bad ones for heroics, how many times have we had loads of special tile generators in doc ock-heavy rosters for example.

Brigby

*Updated Ability Descriptions

sinnerjfl

Please don't implement any of these changes, they are terrible.

himatako

sinnerjfl said:

Please don't implement any of these changes, they are terrible.

I understand that not being able to fire his black power without at least 1 CD tile sounds pretty bad, but shorter duration and increasing in damage for his yellow aren't exactly terrible imo.