The Truth about PVE scaling and Roster Levels

Azoic

Omg, no! Sure it starts that way, but let's see what lvl they are after an evemt or two of you destroying every node without taking dmg. Quit misleading ppl to **** themselves by leveling...and then relying on boosts and healthpacks even more.

If you want ppl to lvl characters, then fix scaling or have set lvls based on roster or something. Scaling shouldn't go up because you got some cascades...that is a complete cash grab. We need definitive information---posting some shots with a fresh account means absolutely nothing to vets who know better. Don't listen to the dribble in the OP's post new folks.

Unknown

Whatever the origins of a bad scaling, it should be capped lower than what it is now...

Because, the higher the scaling, the more you have to spend in HP/Iso to boost/buy health packs. So, the more competitive you become, the more you have to spend on a game to keep on playing ?

Spending 10K HP in a PvE (and grinding the nodes like hell) to get 4 covers is just not right.

About spending 10K HP, I am not the only one. Some very good players have paid that for Prof X. I gave up myself on Prof X, but paid 10K HP for Starlord...

Loftus

What i don't understand about this is that i've had two level 94 characters for about two months now, and enemies have been around the same level for the duration of those two months.

No matter if i finish in the top 50 of an event or the top 400 i'm never facing 'normal' nodes that are above level 100, except for some whacky cases at the end of an event when everything suddenly goes into overdrive which i can only assume is some weird community scaling thing.

I can't really get my head around it. If i'm already finishing top 20 in events and the enemies haven't levelled at all in 2 months, is this saying i could level people to 300, the enemy normal nodes will remain at 100, i can stomp them up to a 20th place finish them stop and wait for the next event without the enemy ever levelling?

Like a few others have said, i feel like a few tournaments would need to be played with that special roster to see how things truly work. It seems very odd.

JVReal

This feels like rolling a car off the factory line, starting it up and saying "see, there is nothing wrong with these engines" then shutting it off, never driving it, or ever starting it again... despite the fact that there are thousands of claims of engine failure, engine problems, from people who haven't driven them very long.

That account needs to play an event, get effected by personal scaling, by community scaling, and document every node, the levels, damage dealt, damage taken, placement, then see where it's "base scaling" is the next event.

This first post and screen shot means absolutely nothing to me since I have played and have been playing since Oct 2014.

Test environments are nice, but LIVE environments give you real data. D3, of all people, should know this.

Roswulf

I'm a bit perplexed, so I am going to summarize what I understand as the consensus.

The key lesson here is that high-leveled characters that are NOT used on PvE nodes do not meaningfully effect PvE difficulty. Roster strength in and of itself is not a major component of PvE scaling.

Once a high-level character is actually used in PvE, all bets are off. It is unclear to what degree whether the personal scaling algorithm uses character level itself, and to what degree it uses damage taken, win percentage, or some other measure of strength. But it is real and it is terrifying.

So if I have a 2* Roster with no 3* above level 95*, I can safely max my fully covered Hood without elevating node difficulty...so long as I use that Hood exclusively in PvP?

mjh

With this being said the take away is that PVE scaling is too high and should be toned down 10-20%. It makes no sense for even a 270 team to be going up against 399 Ares/Venom/Daken

LXSandman

Scoregasms wrote:

I'm with Phantron on this, I think this post is misleading if it's telling folks to go forth and max out all your characters because "Hey look, low PVE node with all maxed 4* roster! Proof!". There should be a link to that forum thread on PVE by Phaser or NP about using lower level characters in PVE to keep scaling down to reasonable levels.

A test account with zero past PVE history with that roster isn't exactly a normal situation, it only proves that performance and community scaling really are a big deal. Sure, go ahead and max them all but don't use them in PVE and crush nodes because you won't be seeing those levels ever again.

Wasn't it ISO-8 Brotherhood that also had scaling completely turned off a little while back? Lol, ok, so maybe it did happen in game.

Anyway, I think if a post like this is going to be put up by a Mod and a Red, more comprehensive information should be provided as well, not just this one very specific scenario that outright tells folks to max characters and then later they wonder why all their nodes keep increasing in difficulty. You can't undo a change like that.

However if any of this is incorrect, I would love a better explanation.

I think what this post is essentially saying is that if you max out your upper end character to compete in PVP it will have no effect on your PVE scaling as long as you don't start crushing nodes with them. As soon as you start using those higher lvled characters then you will start to change your scaling level and it will be impossible for your lower level guys to compete.

So we can now essentially have 2 "Rosters" one low level roster that you only ever use on PVE then your upper roster for PVP - Just don'm mix them.

LXSandman

Polares

This thread is terrible misleading, character levels influence A LOT on the levels of you enemies in PvE. Maybe it is not a direct variable in the formula, but it is evident that people with 270s can get scaling to 395 and people with 166 generally can't.

PS: And creating a new roster without using it in any match doesn't prove anything. Create three teams, one with 94, one with 166 and one with 270 and then play 30 matches with each of them. Then let's see how is the scaling for these groups.

Unknown

I think that this gives us a data point, but isn't nearly as conclusive as it's being played as. One huge problem - the benefit from levelling 4*s from, say, 166 to 270 - gets you relatively little advantage in PVE now. Only X-Force is truly dominant, thanks to the Goddess nerf, and the primary things he gains are just hit points. An extra 3k hit points isn't shabby, but it's also not gamebreaking. Meanwhile, you're risking the following things bringing him up to 270:

1) If X-Force gets nerfed, you're pretty much back to using a 3* roster with 4* scaling

2) People with 270s are getting higher levels in PVE than people with 166s. I rarely see levels above 300, and generally see them over 250 only in hyper-scaled events like Prodigal Sun or the very end of events when everything's going crazy. Right now, PVE is manageable, and I don't want to risk tinkering with it.

3) I have 34, soon to be 35, 166s. If one goes down, I've got a lot of other good options who can step up in a pinch, and save health packs. If I see 4* scaling, if X-Force goes down, there's a big step down to Goddess (who level caps for me at 168 right now), and after that, I've got Nick Fury, Devil Dinosaur, and the same 166s, only with higher scaling. Invisible Woman isn't going to save my bacon there.

4) They are constantly changing how scaling works. If roster plays a bigger role later, then we're stuck.

5) Most importantly: There's no real way to undo leveling up once you've done it. I might not see significantly worse scaling if I started spending the 1.2 million ISO it would take to take my 4 4*s capable of going to 270 (XF, IW, NF, DD). But I might. And it might wreck PVE, while only giving me a slight advantage in PVP (which is lessened thanks to the new rotating buffs). I need too few covers to be overly concerned with PVP right now; whereas I can do PVE at my own pace, and generally know exactly what I need to do to place at a given rewards tier. PVP is something like the fourth most important part of this game to me, after PVE, DDQ, and LRs. I'm not risking handicapping PVE because I want a slight advantage in the game's worst mode.

Unknown

Only read OP and,not,much more but that OP is a flat out lie.

I've seen a node jump 10 lvls just because I increased my 2*Mag 1 level. Went to the node seen the matchup was iffy about it and figured I would level up,once just because I was still building, returned to have the node +10 levels based on only that change.

XandorXerxes

Please be careful not to conflate a few different things.

The original post is only relevant to the effect leveling your characters has on your PvE opponents. When you start talking about how higher level characters deal more damage and thus level enemy goons, that's a distinct effect that this post isn't addressing. Jamie and IceX are pointing out that if you use Ares, OBW, and (2*) Daken to take on PvE, then leveling your Punisher to 166 isn't going to affect PvE substantially (if at all). If you start using Punisher in PvE, then you will bring other factors into play. They are saying that there's no point in saving your ISO and keeping your Punisher at 94 (especially if you're not planning on using him in PvE).

Now, it could be that the formula has some sort of factor for average level * number of matches won * some constant at the end of it, but at that point you'd have a developer purposely misleading you... for what purpose? Just to make PvE harder on you? If the developers wanted to do that they could just code PvE to be harder on you.

So yes, be aware that using higher level characters in PvE will cause your enemy levels to increase. However, the act of simply leveling those characters does not.

Unknown

XandorXerxes wrote:

Please be careful not to conflate a few different things.

The original post is only relevant to the affect leveling your characters has on your PvE opponents. When you start talking about how higher level characters deal more damage and thus level them that way, that's a distinct effect that this post isn't addressing. Jamie and IceX are pointing out that if you use Ares, OBW, and (2*) Daken to take on PvE, then leveling your Punisher to 166 isn't going to affect PvE substantially. If you start using Punisher in PvE, then you will bring other factors into play. They are saying that there's no point in saving your ISO and keeping your Punisher at 94 (especially if you're not planning on using him in PvE).

Now, it could be that the formula has some sort of factor for average level * number of matches won * some constant at the end of it, but at that point you'd have a developer purposely misleading you... for what purpose? Just to make PvE harder on you? If the developers wanted to do that they could just code PvE to be harder on you.

So yes, be aware that using higher level characters in PvE will cause your enemy levels to increase. However, the act of simply leveling those characters does not.

No, but unless I want to start building a second X-Force - which I don't want to - taking my X-Force to 270 and not using him in PVE means I'm losing my best character for use in PVE. So leveling him means making PVE harder necessarily, either because scaling goes up due to using him, or not having access to him.

stowaway

Ben Grimm wrote:

3) I have 34, soon to be 35, 166s. If one goes down, I've got a lot of other good options who can step up in a pinch, and save health packs. If I see 4* scaling, if X-Force goes down, there's a big step down to Goddess (who level caps for me at 168 right now), and after that, I've got Nick Fury, Devil Dinosaur, and the same 166s, only with higher scaling. Invisible Woman isn't going to save my bacon there.

To me this is a key point, even though I'm playing the game at a tier lower. I had a much weaker roster the last time The Gauntlet ran, but my purely subjective experience is that this Gauntlet was harder to finish. A lot harder. Last time I had trouble with two or three nodes, so I used iso boosts; this time I went from a stack of 27 rainbow boosts down to zero, and used whales three times. All because because Fat Thor was locked out of so many nodes. However PvE is determined, Fat Thor is a linchpin for me, as he's my character with the most levels, most hitpoints, and most ability to deal with opponents 150 levels higher.

I don't regret bringing Thor to 166, and I definitely think people shouldn't deliberately **** themselves because they're worried about scaling. But when you have outlier characters at each tier, and those characters become unavailable, it really drives home the point that PvE enemy levels are out of hand.

TxMoose

LXSandman wrote:

Scoregasms wrote:

I think what this post is essentially saying is that if you max out your upper end character to compete in PVP it will have no effect on your PVE scaling as long as you don't start crushing nodes with them. As soon as you start using those higher lvled characters then you will start to change your scaling level and it will be impossible for your lower level guys to compete.

So we can now essentially have 2 "Rosters" one low level roster that you only ever use on PVE then your upper roster for PVP - Just don'm mix them.
LXSandman

So my current goal is to end up with a maxed Lthor and either hood, loki or doom (depending on cover pulls), for competing in pvp and I'd be ok with only using them for pvp after I climb with **s or other *** characters. But, what happens when they are essentials? Do I have to tank those essential nodes so that I take a 'reasonable' amount of damage? If I play those essential nodes normal with my maxed (and buffed) pvp character, then my scaling goes up? If I pull back and purposely take damage, how much is 'reasonable'? I really want to understand because I enjoy pve and want to continue enjoying it. I know that long-term the importance on pve will lessen once I start consistently placing top 100 in pvp, but would like to have the option to continue enjoying pve.

fmftint

Was that event generated before or after the roster was leveled?

MyFeetStink

stowaway wrote:

To me this is a key point, even though I'm playing the game at a tier lower. I had a much weaker roster the last time The Gauntlet ran, but my purely subjective experience is that this Gauntlet was harder to finish. A lot harder. Last time I had trouble with two or three nodes, so I used iso boosts; this time I went from a stack of 27 rainbow boosts down to zero, and used whales three times. All because because Fat Thor was locked out of so many nodes. However PvE is determined, Fat Thor is a linchpin for me, as he's my character with the most levels, most hitpoints, and most ability to deal with opponents 150 levels higher.

It is my understand that the Gauntlet is the PVE exception, where it is based 100% on your team, your performance, etc. Its not the same as other PVE events, which is why it is in general not competitive (last round not withstanding).

Would would be more interesting to me is if your performance in Gauntlet would impact other PVE events. For instance, if you upgrade 3* for use only in PVP and continue to use maxed 2* in PVE then the idea is your PVE scaling would not go crazy. But Gauntlet it would go up, so if you use the 3*s in there will that impact scaling on typical PVE? Or would gauntlet performance not be included in the mix?

Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.

Unknown

First of all I'm nearly certain that the game absolutely doesn't care about the quality of the character in scaling. That is if you're secretly using AP+3 all boosts on every fight with a team like level 270 IW + Elektra while I'm using a level 270 X Force, the game absolutely isn't going to say, "well the first guy is using Elektra so he shouldn't get much scaling, but the latter guy is using X Force so we'll hit them with every scaling trick in the book". Likewise for the 3* tier I can't see how the game can possibly care whether your level 166 guy is Iron Fist or Beast. If they have that level of sophistication they would have already balanced all the characters that are extra weak/strong.

So even your 'B' team doesn't do anything to lower your scaling if they're equally leveled as your 'A' team. This means you're punished for leveling everyone up as you don't even have the possibility of lowering your scaling since your backup guys are just as high as your main guys. It is not practical to level up guys and then simply not use them since guys who are good at PvP (where higher level is clearly strictly beneficial) tends to be good at PvE too. Having a higher level X Force is going to help you in PvP, and X Force is not exactly weak in PvE either, and not using X Force in PvE sets you very far back competitively.

Finally people need to get the notion that how you play the game matters. It used to and it was trivially manipulable. I usually finish a game with a lower scaling than I started with. All you have to do is:

1. Play until you're guaranteed to win.
2. Start making bad moves (try matching only on the top row).

Since the AI will never use the AP they collected on the same turn, it doesn't matter how badly you're playing. As long as you didn't have whoever you need to win wiped out by a cascade, you can always win the next turn. Given that when this worked that was in the pre nerf Magneto days, it's actually pretty trivial as you can win most games by turn 2, and don't worry, even if enemies are only level 200 you can easily fake any kind of incompetence by matching only the top row very quickly, because I used to do that all the time. D3 eventually caught on this and the fact is that there is no possible way to distinguish genuine incompetence versus faking it, and a strong player can always fake any level of incompetence needed. Further, if that was truly the case, you'd randomly have players who are genuinely incompetent suddenly looking at level 50 nodes and then easily dominate there. We also have people plagued by scaling that are burnt out in PvE and barely play PvE. If you gave up that's got to be even more incompetent than the guys trying to fake it, but again we've never heard of anyone giving up and then found that after finishing horribly a few times everything dropped to a super low level.

Unlike say high level secrecy, this isn't something you can hide because finishing poorly in an event is easy. Let's say finishing under top 500 is very bad. Well, at least half of the playing population has to be able to do it, so we should have plenty of guys doing this, and if this worked you're not going to keep a secret for a method half of the guys can do without even trying (because half of the guys has to finish out of top 500).

Scoregasms

XandorXerxes wrote:

Jamie and IceX are pointing out that if you use Ares, OBW, and (2*) Daken to take on PvE, then leveling your Punisher to 166 isn't going to affect PvE substantially (if at all). If you start using Punisher in PvE, then you will bring other factors into play. They are saying that there's no point in saving your ISO and keeping your Punisher at 94 (especially if you're not planning on using him in PvE).

This is the problem with the OP, this was NOT stated upfront, if it was, then it would be fine and it is something important for folks to know about. This is all I was getting at and that it should've been more clear upfront instead of the "go ahead and level all your characters" line.

Here's NP's post I was referring to, if you haven't read, please do so: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24984

Yes, level up your PVP roster to max to compete more, but keep your separate PVE roster lower so scaling doesn't go out of control. Problem is that most folks will not or can't have duplicates for everyone due to exorbitant roster costs, so what happens when one of your max PVP characters is essential and you don't have a duplicate lowbie version? Now that mystery equation kicks in and you have to deal with the scaling consequences.

I'm hoping that case isn't too terrible though and I can just take some damage be OK, I am going to run an experiment and build a 94 PVE roster, play terrible, take lots of damage and pretty much tank the next month of PVE's to see if i can get my scaling down so I only use my 94 maxed roster in PVE (mix of 2/3/4 characters) and still try and beat the nodes in the end. If it works, then I'll max out my 4* with a healthy group of maxed 3* and only use them for PVP purposes.

However, if this is what it takes to better "enjoy" the PVE aspects while remaining competitive in PVP, then it's a twisted/complicated route to do so. I'm planning to join my Alliance's casual group while I run this experiment so I don't screw them over with my low scoring. Granted, you can be Top2 with a 4*/3* roster as I've been able to do, but it takes a lot more boosts/luck to do so against a 350/395 Juggernaut who is an absolute menace whereas a 140-180 Juggernaut is just a severe nuisance as was seen in this past Heroic Dark Avengers PVE. There are some exceptions of hyper-scaled events like Gauntlet/Prodigal Sun/Simulator Hard that outright favor a more developed and maxed roster, but these seem to be the minority.

My point is that I don't think this is as clear and cut/dry as the original post alludes to and that there are other factors that simply can't be ignored and are in fact exacerbated by simply maxing out your roster to better "enjoy" the game.

XandorXerxes

Scoregasms wrote:

Yes, level up your PVP roster to max to compete more, but keep your separate PVE roster lower so scaling doesn't go out of control. Problem is that most folks will not or can't have duplicates for everyone due to exorbitant roster costs, so what happens when one of your max PVP characters is essential and you don't have a duplicate lowbie version? Now that mystery equation kicks in and you have to deal with the scaling consequences.

I'm hoping that case isn't too terrible though and I can just take some damage be OK, I am going to run an experiment and build a 94 PVE roster, play terrible, take lots of damage and pretty much tank the next month of PVE's to see if i can get my scaling down so I only use my 94 maxed roster in PVE (mix of 2/3/4 characters) and still try and beat the nodes in the end. If it works, then I'll max out my 4* with a healthy group of maxed 3* and only use them for PVP purposes.

What I did was that I used my 2* team for everything. However, I'm to the point where I got a couple fully or almost fully-covered 3*s. Now I still use my 2* team for PvE, but I switch to my 3*-ish team for PVP after a few hundred points (unfortunately I start hitting high level 3* teams around 300-350 points). Since I still use my 2* teams (I have four 2*s) for PvE, my scaling doesn't seem too crazy. I've seen 395s once on an all-goon deadly node (pretty sure community scaling bit me here too, this was after winfinite was well established). If I run into a node that is hard for me and I can't seem to win or struggle mightily with 2*s or if there's one last node that I need to clear but my 2*s are pretty banged up I'll throw my high level 3*s in there just to clear it and move on. I have a couple 3*s who are in the low-hundred area (100-114) as well, and I use them on occasion if two of my main team are hijacked by the enemy.

If PvE is designed to scale that doesn't mean you should automatically use your best characters, it means you can use whoever you want and the game will scale up accordingly. If you throw a 270 X-Force at it, it's going to throw monster goons right back. If you throw together a team of chumps that you think might be fun or interact in a weird way, it's going to throw chumps back. It's still not going to be a cakewalk, but if you take the PVP approach to it (fast and strong characters to end it quick) it's designed to beat you back eventually.

For what it's worth, using the same 2*s over and over will still feel grindy. If you want to use some of your more random lower-leveled 3*s, it'll probably be a bit more fun. The occasional use of your high level guys won't affect it too badly (the two 3*s I usually turn to when I need a node cleared are a level 166 and a level 150).

Scoregasms

XandorXerxes wrote:

What I did was that I used my 2* team for everything. However, I'm to the point where I got a couple fully or almost fully-covered 3*s. Now I still use my 2* team for PvE, but I switch to my 3*-ish team for PVP after a few hundred points (unfortunately I start hitting high level 3* teams around 300-350 points). Since I still use my 2* teams (I have four 2*s) for PvE, my scaling doesn't seem too crazy. I've seen 395s once on an all-goon deadly node (pretty sure community scaling bit me here too, this was after winfinite was well established). If I run into a node that is hard for me and I can't seem to win or struggle mightily with 2*s or if there's one last node that I need to clear but my 2*s are pretty banged up I'll throw my high level 3*s in there just to clear it and move on. I have a couple 3*s who are in the low-hundred area (100-114) as well, and I use them on occasion if two of my main team are hijacked by the enemy.

If PvE is designed to scale that doesn't mean you should automatically use your best characters, it means you can use whoever you want and the game will scale up accordingly. If you throw a 270 X-Force at it, it's going to throw monster goons right back. If you throw together a team of chumps that you think might be fun or interact in a weird way, it's going to throw chumps back. It's still not going to be a cakewalk, but if you take the PVP approach to it (fast and strong characters to end it quick) it's designed to beat you back eventually.

For what it's worth, using the same 2*s over and over will still feel grindy. If you want to use some of your more random lower-leveled 3*s, it'll probably be a bit more fun. The occasional use of your high level guys won't affect it too badly (the two 3*s I usually turn to when I need a node cleared are a level 166 and a level 150).

I'm in total agreement with you, perhaps my situation isn't quite the norm maybe? I have about 6 3* maxed or close to it with a couple 4* (4hor and XF) parked at 192, the rest of my roster is around 100 or below, many still at their base levels. My problem is that I have to use my top roster to compete and beat PVE nodes with how my scaling is (same roster I use in PVP), I'm less than 4 months played and early on, I naturally thought "I'm gonna use my best characters in this PVE!", well, 3 months later with mostly Top 2 finishes under by belt, my scaling is to a point now where I have to use my best team, I don't really have another option anymore.

However, it'll take a very small investment to get my non-leveled 3* and 4* to level 94 (with all my maxed 2*) and my useable PVE Roster now explodes to a large roster I can pick and choose from. I'm starting to get some extra 4* covers, so this includes XF/4hor/Prof X/Fury/IW/BP/HT/LThor/Cyclops/Doom/Grocket/DD/etc, you get the idea, a lot more variety which I think would be more fun to use instead of being forced to use my best characters or spend a lot more ISO to max out more characters. Maybe in a years worth of playing, I can slowly level them all up, but it is what is right now for my roster.

#ThingsIWishIKnew4MonthsAgo