*** Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon) ***

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Although you can't place the tiles, if you just get 10 purple it's going to be able to convert enough unless you already have 12+ black AP, and at that point you can either use purple for damage or just use the black AP for something if you got anyone who can use it. One interesting side effect is that IF + X Force will trivially infinite on most DA matchup since purple is their strongest color about half of the time, so Surgical Strike will usually hit purple, though to be fair being able to blow away boring DA events is not the worst thing you can do in terms of balance.

Not sure why people are still thinking Thor is the one responsible for the imbalance after how medicore she was in Cage Match and the only restriction applied by that event was you can't use X Force. Thor can't do anything without getting rid of a person fast, and right now the only guy who can reliably get rid of even a weak character with a 3 match move is X Force (X Force). Even boosted, Berserker Rage is not something you can use to immediately get rid of someone with having the other pieces go along with it since it can backfire on you easily, and if you have to wait for say 9g + 11black (for Trickery) or 9g + 10r + 9blue (for Smite) that's already very slow. Now X Force uses the same 3 match green/4 match black, but both of his moves have no drawbacks and is will generally collect a large amount of AP being used, which greatly reduces the amount of AP you need in other colors (and for Surgical Strike, it's often 0 for a certain color). If there's no X Force you almost have to resort to a 4 match move to just kill someone, since the only 3 match moves that can qualify would be Berserker Rage (risky), Fireball (not quite enough damage and is on red), and Oldest Trick in the Book (easy to lose the CD and it's red) and if you need a 4 match move to get anything going, there's nothing fast about that setup at all.

Well said. And balancing X-Force could be done so simply without changing the character as much. I have said to have Surgical Strike do exactly the same as it does, but instead of getting AP from # of tiles destroyed, you just get the AP the team had of their strongest color. This would probably stop the Surgical Strike into an always X-Force. So then when you do Surgical Strike 1st turn from boosts and Iron Fist, you would do a good chunk of damage, but wouldn't steal anything since they have no AP

this makes sense.

Unknown

Or the alredy mentioned change in cost, X Force for 10 green and SS for 13 black. Now seriously, why is SS cheaper than TBTI (in quantity)?

Unknown

ShionSinX wrote:

Or the alredy mentioned change in cost, X Force for 10 green and SS for 13 black. Now seriously, why is SS cheaper than TBTI (in quantity)?

I think Surgical Strike is designed assuming that the player is stupid enough to not be able to figure out what the enemy's strongest color is and thus not bring anyone that can possibly take advantage of the pile of AP you get.

SnowcaTT

Saw there were many more pages in this thread, figured I'd head in and start listening how OP Iron Fist is!

Instead, I come in and find yet another thread full of complaints about how OP X-force is. SMH. I don't even want to go back and see if folks are trying to compare the OP level of this 3* to the OP level of a 4*.

Edit: Fine, I went back...at least it's complaining about how the 3* OP will further boost the OP 4*. All's well then!

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

Saw there were many more pages in this thread, figured I'd head in and start listening how OP Iron Fist is!

Instead, I come in and find yet another thread full of complaints about how OP X-force is. SMH. I don't even want to go back and see if folks are trying to compare the OP level of this 3* to the OP level of a 4*.

Edit: Fine, I went back...at least it's complaining about how the 3* OP will further boost the OP 4*. All's well then!

Asking for ppl not to talk about Xforce is like asking the sun not to shine - happens occasionally and will happen permanently when we all die.

dr tinykittylove

Seriously Iron Fist's purple and black are ridiculous. 4k for 5 pink, and a 500attack tile right from the start of the match? I would much rather fight xf/thorina than IF/random 3*.

Unknown

I haven't tried either character yet, but it looks to me like Iron Fist and Blade play very similar roles.

Unknown

dr tinykittylove wrote:

Seriously Iron Fist's purple and black are ridiculous. 4k for 5 pink, and a 500attack tile right from the start of the match? I would much rather fight xf/thorina than IF/random 3*.

The free damage that you WILL get every round, even if you stun the entire team, is a huge detriment for attackers. While most teams you can just deny AP and focus the biggest hiter, taking only a few 3-match damage, against IF you gonna need boost and taking about 1.5k+ damage always, if you focus IF. unless you use +3 all/+3 purple/+3 black boosts together and X-Force + IF to instant SS.

Unknown

complete skill details, GJ

OzarkBoatswain

So here's the simplest changes I can come up with to make him more reasonable.

Purple changed to 8 AP (+3)
Passive changed to a repeating CD tile like Human Torch's, so that it goes off at the beginning of the next turn instead of at the end of the current one.

dr tinykittylove

Ozark Boatswain wrote:

So here's the simplest changes I can come up with to make him more reasonable.

Purple changed to 8 AP (+3)
Passive changed to a repeating CD tile like Human Torch's, so that it goes off at the beginning of the next turn instead of at the end of the current one.

8ap would bring it more in line with other colour change skills like Ms Marvel or Cyclops and Doom. Seems fair.

The passive I think might work if as someone else suggested, they set a minimum ap threshhold like Falcon's blue.

Unknown

Ozark Boatswain wrote:

So here's the simplest changes I can come up with to make him more reasonable.

Purple changed to 8 AP (+3)
Passive changed to a repeating CD tile like Human Torch's, so that it goes off at the beginning of the next turn instead of at the end of the current one.

I think the changes will be more severe to purple and black. I don't expect changes to the green because we already have heroes with better green, especially if his other 2 abilities are nerfed. His green is similar to BP's yellow and Punisher's green with strike tiles of similar strength, although in my opinion it is a lot better already than both of them. Compared to BP's yellow, it costs 1 less, it is easier to get to 12 black than 12 Team-Up, and deals direct damage to remove someone who is ready to use an ability. Compared to Punisher's, and without 12 black banked, they are very similar considering Punisher can cause cascades. If he has 12 black, he is better.

Purple - I think the cost they will choose will need 3 matches. Increase the cost of the purple to 7, but also reduce the number of black tiles it places to 7-8.
Black - A reduction to the damage is pretty much unavoidable. Maybe drop it by 20-25%, in the area of 400 instead 500. An alternative option, or even additional to the damage drop, would be to place the attack tile if there are no other Attack tiles AND no Strike tiles. You can't escape the first tile, but if this is matched and there are other friendly tiles, it won't appear again.

Unknown

Since an equal amount of offense and defense always favors the offense, the attack tile value shouldn't even be greater than Luke Cage's shield as those two abilities are functionally the same. Of course since the game doesn't care for things like offense/defense balanced this is probably irrelevent, though even in an offense dominated world the attack tile way undervalues passive. I'm guessing the design of this game is like say you have a skill that does 200 damage/AP per color and you got one such skill in each color then each turn you basically do 800 damage at least (200 match damage, 3 AP converts to 600 damage later), so the fact that you've a passive means you're no longer doing damage via AP consuming moves on one color so it should contribute enough damage to make that up. However since you get 9 skills between 3 guys you already have 3 abilities that probably aren't doing really doing damage in the first place, and then there's also the fact that nobody gets all the color equally because there are always some skills that are overwhelmingly more powerful so you'd just try to get that color and the fact that you don't have a purple power usually doesn't matter.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Since an equal amount of offense and defense always favors the offense, the attack tile value shouldn't even be greater than Luke Cage's shield as those two abilities are functionally the same. Of course since the game doesn't care for things like offense/defense balanced this is probably irrelevent, though even in an offense dominated world the attack tile way undervalues passive. I'm guessing the design of this game is like say you have a skill that does 200 damage/AP per color and you got one such skill in each color then each turn you basically do 800 damage at least (200 match damage, 3 AP converts to 600 damage later), so the fact that you've a passive means you're no longer doing damage via AP consuming moves on one color so it should contribute enough damage to make that up. However since you get 9 skills between 3 guys you already have 3 abilities that probably aren't doing really doing damage in the first place, and then there's also the fact that nobody gets all the color equally because there are always some skills that are overwhelmingly more powerful so you'd just try to get that color and the fact that you don't have a purple power usually doesn't matter.

I think the real problem is balance doesn't matter in this game unless a hero is horrifically tinykitty or horrifically overpowered - so Iron Fist getting nerfed or not I think will largely depend on how cancerous he is to the PVP meta-game, if the hypotheticals become reality.

I would like to see some alternative win conditions(venom's , deadpool whales) wherein protect tiles become true heal, or you can win somehow through defense.

Phaserhawk

Here's my whole issue.

Cyclops comes out with a 7AP yellow that only changes 8 TU tiles to red at max level.

Then you have Iron Fist who changes 9 tiles for 5 purple, not to mention the possible dmg.

So both skills are meant to fire up the others, Cyclops yellow is to enhance his black and speed up his red.

Iron Fist's purple is to enhance his purple or enhance his green, yet his purple is 10 times the skill cyclops yellow is and for 2 less AP. This is what does not make sense to me.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Here's my whole issue.
Cyclops comes out with a 7AP yellow that only changes 8 TU tiles to red at max level.
Then you have Iron Fist who changes 9 tiles for 5 purple, not to mention the possible dmg.
So both skills are meant to fire up the others, Cyclops yellow is to enhance his black and speed up his red.
Iron Fist's purple is to enhance his purple or enhance his green, yet his purple is 10 times the skill cyclops yellow is and for 2 less AP. This is what does not make sense to me.

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say they give some value to the fact that Cyclops' power is more predictable, since it directly targets one type of tile to change rather than just spraying the board with randomly placed tiles. When you put these powers side by side though it does seem fairly ridiculous.

famousfoxking

Thugpatrol wrote:

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say they give some value to the fact that Cyclops' power is more predictable, since it directly targets one type of tile to change rather than just spraying the board with randomly placed tiles. When you put these powers side by side though it does seem fairly ridiculous.

Which is weird, because it also means Cyclops' power has several counters (Regrowth, Polarizing Force, Mistress of the Elements) based simply on denying him the tiles he would need to change. IF's power can't really be countered in the same way: it's going to lay tiles no matter what. Now, you could gather black to help limit the cascades generated, but to my mind, transforming random basic tiles is probably better than transforming only one type of tile. The only time limiting it one type of tile makes any sense to me is in cases like Technopathic Strike where the upper limit is all of them.

CrookedKnight

Also, Cyclops has a power that charges just from having red on the board, while IF needs to actually match black. It's still hugely in favor of Danny, but there's a justification.

Phaserhawk

CrookedKnight wrote:

Also, Cyclops has a power that charges just from having red on the board, while IF needs to actually match black. It's still hugely in favor of Danny, but there's a justification.

and that is a good point. In a vaccuum I think that IF is fine as he is, but unfortunately that's not how the game works. I would love to see the game without AP boosts as they are. My suggestion.

TU 6--+3 Green/Black AP

In fact I think all boosts should become TU's. You can tweak the costs etc, but I think this would really add depth to the game as you can still get a color boost, just not to start, but I digress

Unknown

Iron Fist's conversion is insanely overpowered probably because he has no active black to use that black AP. Of course, nobody could possibly imagine pairing him up with the strongest character the game that has the best black skill in the game too. Even without X Force, pairing him up with Black Panther and I don't see any 3* only team that can withstand 2 ROTPs which you can probably get after 10 purple AP, less if you're lucky. A lot of teams would be effectively downed after 1 ROTP when you add IF's considerable attack tile damage.

This is kind of like the original Daken whose Phermone Rage is about as strong as a top tier green skill even though it didn't consume green AP or even required you to match it, because you might unfathomably not have any green powers on your team. Of course no one really did that unless you're going for a Falcon/Daken/pre nerf Magneto team (Blade was not available before Daken was nerfed, and if you're not using pre nerf Magneto your third person is almost certainly someone who has a green power) but that didn't stop him from getting the original version of Phermone Rage.