*** Cyclops (Uncanny X-Men) ***

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Comments

  • MawtfulMawtful Posts: 1,646 Chairperson of the Boards
    Is there any rule that states his Black ability won't damage the whole enemy team at rank 5? In the same way that GSBW's Green suddenly switches from single target to team wide.

    Maybe I'm missing the point, but his Red seems to compare fairly well against other 3* red abilities. Look at She-Hulk's red at rank 1:

    Shulk - 83 dmg and 10 tiles destroyed. 9 AP
    Cyke - 425 dmg and 8 tiles destroyed. 10 AP.

    That's more than 5 times increase on damage for 1 AP.

    She-Hulk's first upgrade to red is simply a damage upgrade as well - the extra tiles destroyed are at rank 3 and 5 - so we don't know if Cyclops shapes his blasts as he ranks up (maybe into an X shape?).

    As for partners - I'm going to be keeping an eye on Ragnarok. A cheap red ability that can be used to fuel a cheap green ability that can be used to shake up the board? Sure, I'll try that. Since Mutant Revolutionary is 7 AP, it's very unlikely to roll back around into an infinite-turn combo wombo, but it'll be great for generating some cascade AP.
  • edited February 2015
    ark123 wrote:
    He seems to be a better version of Iron Man 40. Yellow generates red and one of his moves stuns himself. Should be great with Patch 3/5/5.
    He tanks red, yellow and black if you pair him with patch. That's just about the worst combination possible.
    Yeah, see, that's gonna be a problem. And yet we have this little tidbit from the interview with Producer Joe Fletcher from D3Publisher:

    "...takes Team Up tiles on the board and converts them to Red tiles. This will naturally feed into either his own Optic Blasts or some of the other powerful Red based abilities like Wolverine’s Best There Is..."

    So just to get this straight, you need to collect 7 yellow to swap for red so you can TBTI. Problem, Cyclops is tanking too many colors. Needs to stun himself. So you need 13 black on hand too. Oh wait, for him to stun himself there needs to be a ton of red on the board. But we already collected it for TBTI. So are we collecting yellow again to swap again and get back to the 10 red on the board so we can stun Cyclops and THEN we get to TBTI? Or does he stun himself and then we collect the rest of the red within two turns and THEN we TBTI? This is starting to sound like a lot of work.

    See, it's things like this that make me wonder about their design process. At least if his color priority was black/red/yellow there'd be a fighting chance you could pair him with Patch, if he's not boosted and you put Patch in front. But that's not the case is it? Not too slick.
  • Thugpatrol wrote:
    ark123 wrote:
    He seems to be a better version of Iron Man 40. Yellow generates red and one of his moves stuns himself. Should be great with Patch 3/5/5.
    He tanks red, yellow and black if you pair him with patch. That's just about the worst combination possible.
    Yeah, see, that's gonna be a problem. And yet we have this little tidbit from the interview with Producer Joe Fletcher from D3Publisher:

    "...takes Team Up tiles on the board and converts them to Red tiles. This will naturally feed into either his own Optic Blasts or some of the other powerful Red based abilities like Wolverine’s Best There Is..."

    So just to get this straight, you need to collect 7 yellow to swap for red so you can TBTI. Problem, Cyclops is tanking too many colors. Needs to stun himself. So you need 13 black on hand too. Oh wait, for him to stun himself there needs to be a ton of red on the board. But we already collected it for TBTI. So are we collecting yellow again to swap again and get back to the 10 red on the board so we can stun Cyclops and THEN we get to TBTI?

    See, it's things like this that make me wonder about their design process. At least if his color priority was black/red/yellow there'd be a fighting chance you could pair him with Patch, if he's not boosted and you put Patch in front. But that's not the case is it? Not too slick.

    They don't have a design process - look at Starlord, lol.

    I think there's at least one person who knows how to design characters at D3, but they don't always get put on new characters. I mean look at all the revamped characters(besides Daredevil) - pretty good.
  • edited February 2015
    raisinbman wrote:
    They don't have a design process - look at Starlord, lol.

    I think there's at least one person who knows how to design characters at D3, but they don't always get put on new characters. I mean look at all the revamped characters(besides Daredevil) - pretty good.

    I think there's a group of designers who doesn't know X Force (and to a lesser extent Thor 4*) exists. There's a guy who still think Ragnarok was his old 2 AP Thunderclap self (see the explanation on Star Lord about how his yellow feeds into Thunderclaps). There's also a guy who thinks there are no other ability that converts color A to color B besides the ability he just designed. Based on the revamps I think their design is pretty solid, but it's designed while missing key information (like X Force exists) or not being aware the world has changed (like Moonstone is no longer, or rather, never was, very good).
  • Phantron wrote:
    raisinbman wrote:
    They don't have a design process - look at Starlord, lol.

    I think there's at least one person who knows how to design characters at D3, but they don't always get put on new characters. I mean look at all the revamped characters(besides Daredevil) - pretty good.

    I think there's a group of designers who doesn't know X Force (and to a lesser extent Thor 4*) exists. There's a guy who still think Ragnarok was his old 2 AP Thunderclap self (see the explanation on Star Lord about how his yellow feeds into Thunderclaps). There's also a guy who thinks there are no other ability that covers color A to color B besides the ability he just designed. Based on the revamps I think their design is pretty solid, but it's designed while missing key information (like X Force exists) or not being aware the world has changed (like Moonstone is no longer, or rather, never was, very good).

    I don't understand their fascination for Moonstone unless they're playing a Moonstone that's not released and is less random/similar to 3*/2*Marv
  • CaptainFreakyCaptainFreaky Posts: 451 Mover and Shaker
    raisinbman wrote:
    I don't understand their fascination for Moonstone unless they're playing a Moonstone that's not released and is less random/similar to 3*/2*Marv

    The designers are almost all guys aren't they? So...isn't it obvious why they like Moonstone so much? Let's just say they aren't using their brains when they say they like to play with her...

    moonstone-as-ms-marvel.jpg
  • raisinbman wrote:
    I don't understand their fascination for Moonstone unless they're playing a Moonstone that's not released and is less random/similar to 3*/2*Marv

    The designers are almost all guys aren't they? So...isn't it obvious why they like Moonstone so much? Let's just say they aren't using their brains when they say they like to play with her...

    moonstone-as-ms-marvel.jpg


    I mean I get it, Imma guy. And yes this is a one-handed game if you're into that. But like...I dunno. Is that why Starlord is "good" too icon_e_wink.gif?
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    LOL

    I love how everyone trashes a character before all his cover levels are released, I remember when people said Blade and Luke Cage would suck, that his yellow is too conditional etc.

    Here are three scenarios as to how he'll play out.

    5/3/5--Black ends up being really, really powerful at 5, like 5K target 2K AoE, like a Thor Call of the Storm, in this case you just need enough yellow to ensure the board has enough to make black Max.

    5/5/3--Black ends up being meh, and you decide to turn Cyclops into a combo machine with his yellow or Mystique or as a red engine for someone

    3/5/5--Black is utterly amazing but requires lots of red on the board as a balance effect, meaning you will need yellow to ensure the red tiles.

    The only downside I can see is that yellow could bite you in the tinykitty, if you make lots of red, as that means there is more on the board for the AI to match, and depending upon your opponent that could possibly not be good

    My gut tells me 5/3/5 is going to be the best build, just based on the interview black just sounds like something the devs made really powerful but with some clauses so to keep it balanced, and red just is too core of an ability to not have as 5, but that's me.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    It seems weird to me that Cage's yellow is generally lauded as being pretty powerful (despite the 13AP), and yet Cyclops' black is being termed useless. Comparing to Beast is hilarious

    Base (lvl 40) stats:
    Cage yellow at level 2: 658 + 159x2 = 976
    Cyclops Black at level 2: 937 + 549 = 1486

    Cyclops Black does almost as much as Cage even before the red condition. Assuming it scales roughly the same:

    Base stats:
    Cage yellow at level 5: 2251 (2.31 multiplier from lvl 2)
    Cyclops black at level 5: 3432

    Max stats:
    Cage: 7141 (about 38.8 increase per level, or about 1.7% of base)
    Cyclops (estimated, based on 58.3 per level, or 1.7% of base): 10783 + 2 turn self stun which I'd bet reduces to 1 turn at level 5 (6793 w/o red, based on base stats of level 1/2 being 63% of max possible damage)

    I mean, unless he scales absolutely atrociously, it looks like he has the single biggest, single-target move in 3* land, possibly one-shotting everyone except 4Thor/Dino. (and 249 versions of a few).
  • john1620bjohn1620b Age Unconfirmed Posts: 367
    ark123 wrote:
    john1620b wrote:
    Yellow generating red for 4* Thor is quite useful, if you have her. Charged tiles will generate yellow AP faster, leading to more red, which will lead to even faster Smites. It will likely be possible to generate enough charged tiles to kill the other team with just Cyclops' yellow and Thor's red, without even using her blue.

    You do understand that 4* thor's best skill is by far her blue, right? That it fuels everything she does? That naked smites are worse than a bunch of 3* skills?

    A naked max level smite does 3.4k damage for 10 red. That's pretty awful.
    Of course I know that blue is 4* Thor's best skill. I wasn't saying it should *replace* Thor's own combo -- my point was that sometimes you end up collecting yellow/red without getting any blue, and if using Cyclops, you could still potentially win without even needing to launch blue.
  • Mawtful wrote:
    Is there any rule that states his Black ability won't damage the whole enemy team at rank 5? In the same way that GSBW's Green suddenly switches from single target to team wide.

    Maybe I'm missing the point, but his Red seems to compare fairly well against other 3* red abilities. Look at She-Hulk's red at rank 1:

    Shulk - 83 dmg and 10 tiles destroyed. 9 AP
    Cyke - 425 dmg and 8 tiles destroyed. 10 AP.

    That's more than 5 times increase on damage for 1 AP.

    She-Hulk's first upgrade to red is simply a damage upgrade as well - the extra tiles destroyed are at rank 3 and 5 - so we don't know if Cyclops shapes his blasts as he ranks up (maybe into an X shape?).

    As for partners - I'm going to be keeping an eye on Ragnarok. A cheap red ability that can be used to fuel a cheap green ability that can be used to shake up the board? Sure, I'll try that. Since Mutant Revolutionary is 7 AP, it's very unlikely to roll back around into an infinite-turn combo wombo, but it'll be great for generating some cascade AP.

    Lol what kid of math is that. She hulk's red hits all characters and causes a predictable cascade.

    Also this is a match 3 game. abilities that cost multiples of 3 are always better than ones that arent
  • john1620b wrote:
    ark123 wrote:
    john1620b wrote:
    Yellow generating red for 4* Thor is quite useful, if you have her. Charged tiles will generate yellow AP faster, leading to more red, which will lead to even faster Smites. It will likely be possible to generate enough charged tiles to kill the other team with just Cyclops' yellow and Thor's red, without even using her blue.

    You do understand that 4* thor's best skill is by far her blue, right? That it fuels everything she does? That naked smites are worse than a bunch of 3* skills?

    A naked max level smite does 3.4k damage for 10 red. That's pretty awful.
    Of course I know that blue is 4* Thor's best skill. I wasn't saying it should *replace* Thor's own combo -- my point was that sometimes you end up collecting yellow/red without getting any blue, and if using Cyclops, you could still potentially win without even needing to launch blue.

    So you're bringing a support that maybe helps her use her worst skill instead of hood or loki to make her full combo happen faster.
  • ScoregasmsScoregasms Age Unconfirmed Posts: 373
    It seems weird to me that Cage's yellow is generally lauded as being pretty powerful (despite the 13AP), and yet Cyclops' black is being termed useless. Comparing to Beast is hilarious

    Base (lvl 40) stats:
    Cage yellow at level 2: 658 + 159x2 = 976
    Cyclops Black at level 2: 937 + 549 = 1486

    Cyclops Black does almost as much as Cage even before the red condition. Assuming it scales roughly the same:

    Base stats:
    Cage yellow at level 5: 2251 (2.31 multiplier from lvl 2)
    Cyclops black at level 5: 3432

    Max stats:
    Cage: 7141 (about 38.8 increase per level, or about 1.7% of base)
    Cyclops (estimated, based on 58.3 per level, or 1.7% of base): 10783 + 2 turn self stun which I'd bet reduces to 1 turn at level 5 (6793 w/o red, based on base stats of level 1/2 being 63% of max possible damage)

    I mean, unless he scales absolutely atrociously, it looks like he has the single biggest, single-target move in 3* land, possibly one-shotting everyone except 4Thor/Dino. (and 249 versions of a few).

    I think for me personally, it's not a simple comparison since we're talking about a Yellow Ability versus a Black. Having a Yellow outlet for a 7K nuke comes in handy a lot (at least for me) and throw in charged yellows and it just gets there that much faster. What other big damage abilities are there for Yellow really? Twin Pistols (which also ends turn), Thunder Strike?

    Black on the other hand, if I'm running XF, unless the board is starved of the strongest color, SS gets cast every time just because it helps to accelerate my other abilities and depending on the board, does insane damage. The comparisons I believe that you are seeing are against Surgical Strike and Rage of the Panther, both of which give more bang for the AP cost. Basically, Cyclops Black being used becomes more situational versus being used all the time for me whereas I'll throw a Righteous Uppercut 9 times out of 10 with the Yellow AP.
  • SnowcaTTSnowcaTT Posts: 3,282 Chairperson of the Boards
    gamar wrote:
    If you want the very short version, google “I want this thing off my lawn.”

    "What other lies have you told?"

    Haven't read any comics in years, so these quotes let me track down some storylines here https://comiczombie.wordpress.com/2012/ ... s-moments/
    , very nice.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Scoregasms wrote:
    I think for me personally, it's not a simple comparison since we're talking about a Yellow Ability versus a Black. Having a Yellow outlet for a 7K nuke comes in handy a lot (at least for me) and throw in charged yellows and it just gets there that much faster. What other big damage abilities are there for Yellow really? Twin Pistols (which also ends turn), Thunder Strike?

    Black on the other hand, if I'm running XF, unless the board is starved of the strongest color, SS gets cast every time just because it helps to accelerate my other abilities and depending on the board, does insane damage. The comparisons I believe that you are seeing are against Surgical Strike and Rage of the Panther, both of which give more bang for the AP cost. Basically, Cyclops Black being used becomes more situational versus being used all the time for me whereas I'll throw a Righteous Uppercut 9 times out of 10 with the Yellow AP.

    Color certainly matters, but we can probably shut down the character discussion forum if everything dissolves into

    If Char = XForce
    Then Discuss
    Else return "Character is not XForce"

    There's an army of people without XForce (you'll find them everyday in General Discussion making sure you know they don't have him) that have to decide whether Cyclops is better than the previous passing fancies that have come around. That's worth not dismissing him because he has an inferior color to (arguably) the best move in the game.

    That said, Rage is a close comparison. Rage is 11124 at max, but spread across 3 opponents. Against the 270 twins, Rage barely makes a dent, whereas it appears that Cyclops has the ability to eliminate XForce from scratch. That's likely more valuable, and worth the extra 1AP cost. That's also likely to be a saught after skill in PvE against high-level opponents where removing one opponent > damaging all.

    As far as XForce, obviously Surgical is a monster and favorable boards can do massive damage + cascades, but the average Surgical (9 tiles) is around 5k damage. At some point , probably not here, there's a damage point where executing a move for X Damage is more valuable than 5k + AP generation. 11k single target has to be approaching that limit, as the biggest moves that Surgical fuels are unlikely to do 6k damage behind it, aside from the 270 twins.

    Moral of the story, as long as it scales reasonably, 5 black here looks like an absolute must if you're talking 'optimal.'
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Agreed. But what if Surgical would steal red or blue or purple. Or what if 2 guys are left and you need Surgical plus XForce to down a guy or just use Cyclops black to down him, while saving your green. I agree with Grumpy though when you start to compare anyone to a 4* you just invalidated your arguement IMO.

    3* characters should only be compared to 3* characters, and in those regards Cyclops looks to be shaping up to be a really good character.

    BTW, if they could ever implement it, what if instead of playing against the AI you played against an actually human player? Would then bringing 4hor and X-Force always be a good idea? IMO I would take Fury over 4hor because he would be much harder to defend with X-Force, plus you would Surgical for yellow, not green or red.
  • Phantron wrote:
    I wish D3 stop making these characters that can accidentally go into an infinite combo because it's apparently very hard to figure out if color A generates color B and color B generates color A you got a problem there. Other than some kind of possible infinite combo trick I don't see much point to this character. The abilities look solid in a world without X Force except that's not the correct world. Or is the point of this character that you can have even more broken stuff? When can we get a green ability that generates yellow so that character can infinite with Thor (3*)? Why keep on make characters with decent 4/5 match moves and pretend you don't have a guy that can take out half of the guys with a 3 match move?

    Since it's an X-Force world; guess we won't see you grinding for good ol' Cyclops in PVE or PVP?

    You could just admit that not all characters can be on X-Force, 4or, or even Blade or MQ level. Some characters are more suited for PVE, not PVP. Some characters are just self-indulgences. But, it's lots of fun getting new covers so you can fun playing the characters later. The ones I feel bad for are the ones with X-Force or 4or and that is all they use except when forced to by Essential nodes, Featured PVP's, or lock outs. That seems boring.
  • ZeiramMRZeiramMR Posts: 1,295 Chairperson of the Boards
    Actually, I see a use for the Cyclops black power if it doesn't become an AoE; over leveled PvE fights. Niche to be sure, but if it is enough to take out or nearly take out an annoyance like Luke Cage in this recent Gauntlet, that could be worth it.
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    LOL

    I love how everyone trashes a character before all his cover levels are released, I remember when people said Blade and Luke Cage would suck, that his yellow is too conditional etc.

    I don't remember anyone saying Luke Cage SUCKED. I do remember folks saying "LOL HIS RED IS TRASH IDGAF ABOUT THIS CHARACTER". Blade? No one in their right mind said he sucked unless I missed the super-troll/oblivious posts.
    It seems weird to me that Cage's yellow is generally lauded as being pretty powerful (despite the 13AP), and yet Cyclops' black is being termed useless. Comparing to Beast is hilarious

    While I'm not gonna speak on Cyclops yet too much, there is a difference between yellowflag.png and blackflag.png. Namely, one of those colors doesn't go towards Surgical Strike. Scoregasms said it well. That being said I'm late to the convo so you can probably just ignore this.
  • I have this new theroy. It's called "What if Wolverine gets killed?" Despite our best efforts sometimes wolverine takes a smite to the face and dies (or gets punched by Luke Cage in PvE). Characters should be built based on the idea XF does not exist. Says "LOL Black Sux cuz SS" ONLY because XF exists is not good. Not to mention If you are running Cyclops, TGT, XF his red is equally useless. During the Storm tournament, the only times I lost was if I killed the enemy XF and then Storm used 5 blackflag.png a few times and I died. You can bet those Storms weren't built with "LOL Black Sux cuz SS" in mind.

    Clearly yellowflag.png is 5 covers. Conversion to red is extremely valuable, and from TU tiles? Extra valuable. Until I see the levels on redflag.png or blackflag.png I can't say if 5/5/3 or 3/5/5 is better, but I do know TGT and XF existing shouldn't influence the build.
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