*** Cyclops (Uncanny X-Men) ***

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  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Since I already did the black, am bored, and find this fun, let's guess red:

    At level 1, 2 base, level 5:
    11AP Cap: 95 + 8AP, 209 + 9ap return, 551 + 10. Damage multiplier 2.2 (1->2), 2.63 (2->5)
    8AP Torch: 177, 248, 460. Multiplier 1.4 (1->2), 1.8 (2->5) (plus collect 2 red tiles)
    5AP Gamora: 208, 250, 541. Multiplier 1.2, 2.16
    10AP Cyclops: 425, 540, ? Multiplier 1.27, ?

    So on surface he doesn't fit the pattern, where it looks like more AP -> bigger damage boost. Difference between base 1 and base 2 should be around 1.5 or 1.6. (Also evidence of why Cap is so strong, scales much faster). You can assume the row destruction offsets that, since it has the added tile damage. That's obviously considered more valuable than Torch's red collection, since the multiplier is even less there. The others have a moderate increase in the jump from 2->5, so it's likely Cyclops' jump is somewhere around 1.6. That can change with more tile destruction or other conditions, but if it's a WYSIWYG ability, base at level 5 should be around 850-900. Call it 875.

    Looking at base ->166 scaling, which isn't quite linear from what I've seen, but pretty close:

    Cap: 551->4031 27.6 per level, 5% of base
    Torch: 23.25 per level, 5% of base
    Gamora: 9.35 per level, 1.7% of base
    Cyclops: unknown

    Interesting that the 1.7% of base number comes up again for Gamora, as it did with yellow for Cage. 5% is roughly 3 times that (Torch is actually 5.05%), so there may be something there in how all scale. So if I use the 1.7% number again, you've got max for Cyclops at 14.875 per level, ~2750 max damage + tile destruction.

    I can probably get closer by looking at comparable 10AP abilities and how they scale, which might be more apples/apples, but given the initial description in the interview where it says "Takes a chunk out of support like Hood," I think 2750+tiles is a fair assumption.

    Also means 3/5/5 all the way.

    edit: checked Thor red and Magneto blue also. Thor 40-166 scaling is also 5% of base per level. Magneto's 1.7% of base per swap. Hmmmmmmm...
  • Okay, jokes about playing nice with Patch aside, if I'm trying to be objective...

    His yellow clearly looks like the most usable power. It seems to be a serviceable red battery for the likes of Cap and HT, or 4* Thor if you're so fortunate, with some additional cascade potential. That's solid, and it's pretty cheap.

    Depending on how his red scales, it may or may not be decent. If you could, say, aim the row destruction at five covers that would be something. We'll see.

    He black is expensive. Needing to have the red on the field for ultimate power makes it a little problematic since if you're taking him with you it's probably with the idea of launching red attacks in mind and you're almost certainly going to want to use his yellow long before you have 13 black. Maybe as a late game, snatch victory from the jaws of defeat kind of thing, but it doesn't sound terribly practical on paper. Add to that the fact that we do in fact live in an X-Force world and he's unlikely to see much run in PvP. Still, I can see myself using him in PvE. Might be fun. Color me mildly intrigued.
  • scotteescottee Posts: 1,569 Chairperson of the Boards
    The devs obviously wanted a game-changing combo with their favorite character. Cyclops yellow into Moonstone red.

    inEden wrote:
    I don't get why people keep talking about infinite combos. There are diminishing returns. That is why a match 5 is twice as hard as a match 4. Forget about infinite combos. You are getting good use out of his yellow once in an average match.

    Perhaps Cykes and Lcap will decent in PVE

    Um, infinite combos let you walk about of all PVE hard nodes with basically full health. I don't think I lost a single node in the Gauntlet, and used little if any health packs.
  • ColognoisseurColognoisseur Posts: 714 Critical Contributor
    Not sure where you got the year from but Uncanny X-Men #127 is from 1979.
    X-Men #1 came out at the end of 1963.
  • SnowcaTTSnowcaTT Posts: 3,282 Chairperson of the Boards
    Not sure where you got the year from but Uncanny X-Men #127 is from 1979.
    X-Men #1 came out at the end of 1963.

    They took the text from the Marvel link, which appears as:
    Uncanny X-Men (1963) #127
    Published: November 10, 1979
    Added to Marvel Unlimited: January 01, 2004
  • AronditeArondite Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    It seems weird to me that Cage's yellow is generally lauded as being pretty powerful (despite the 13AP), and yet Cyclops' black is being termed useless. Comparing to Beast is hilarious

    Base (lvl 40) stats:
    Cage yellow at level 2: 658 + 159x2 = 976
    Cyclops Black at level 2: 937 + 549 = 1486

    Cyclops Black does almost as much as Cage even before the red condition. Assuming it scales roughly the same:

    Base stats:
    Cage yellow at level 5: 2251 (2.31 multiplier from lvl 2)
    Cyclops black at level 5: 3432

    Max stats:
    Cage: 7141 (about 38.8 increase per level, or about 1.7% of base)
    Cyclops (estimated, based on 58.3 per level, or 1.7% of base): 10783 + 2 turn self stun which I'd bet reduces to 1 turn at level 5 (6793 w/o red, based on base stats of level 1/2 being 63% of max possible damage)

    I mean, unless he scales absolutely atrociously, it looks like he has the single biggest, single-target move in 3* land, possibly one-shotting everyone except 4Thor/Dino. (and 249 versions of a few).


    It's gonna be hard to gauge if they'll scale proportionally. It's already confirmed that before the final rank of the skill, one of the covers is going to reduce the self-stun to a single turn, so that could possible take away or reduce 1 cover's worth of cover-scaling on the damage.

    Additionally, there are a few of Luke's covers that scale the base damage plus the ally damage. It's not guaranteed that cyclops' covers will scale the base and bonus damage together at any point.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm assuming we're looking at a power house who's gonna nuke down villages here, too. I just don't know if it's safe to say it's gonna be proportionate to their 2-Cover scale.
  • Not sure where you got the year from but Uncanny X-Men #127 is from 1979.
    X-Men #1 came out at the end of 1963.
    Comic series often have the year of their first issue appended to distinguish them from other series with the same name

    UXM for example has three series, 1963, 2011, and 2013, and you'll often see "UXM (1963) #127" rather than "UXM (vol 1) #127"
  • ColognoisseurColognoisseur Posts: 714 Critical Contributor
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    Not sure where you got the year from but Uncanny X-Men #127 is from 1979.
    X-Men #1 came out at the end of 1963.

    They took the text from the Marvel link, which appears as:
    Uncanny X-Men (1963) #127
    Published: November 10, 1979
    Added to Marvel Unlimited: January 01, 2004


    Now that is hysterical the company itself doesn't know when it was published.
  • ColognoisseurColognoisseur Posts: 714 Critical Contributor
    gamar wrote:
    Not sure where you got the year from but Uncanny X-Men #127 is from 1979.
    X-Men #1 came out at the end of 1963.
    Comic series often have the year of their first issue appended to distinguish them from other series with the same name

    UXM for example has three series, 1963, 2011, and 2013, and you'll often see "UXM (1963) #127" rather than "UXM (vol 1) #127"

    Not the best way of making something clear but then there have been so many X-Men #1's and series that might be the only way to keep them even semi-straight.
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Arondite wrote:

    It's gonna be hard to gauge if they'll scale proportionally. It's already confirmed that before the final rank of the skill, one of the covers is going to reduce the self-stun to a single turn, so that could possible take away or reduce 1 cover's worth of cover-scaling on the damage.

    Additionally, there are a few of Luke's covers that scale the base damage plus the ally damage. It's not guaranteed that cyclops' covers will scale the base and bonus damage together at any point.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm assuming we're looking at a power house who's gonna nuke down villages here, too. I just don't know if it's safe to say it's gonna be proportionate to their 2-Cover scale.

    All fair points. Reading it again, it says it will down support characters in a blow, but you'd think if it did 10k damage it would say something like 'downs a single opponent'. So it's probably not a 10k nuke. Not sure where 'support' line is drawn (is Daken support?) but think it's safe to say it's above 6800 damage, and with the stun drawback, it's probably at least in the 8k range.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Not sure where 'support' line is drawn (is Daken support?) but think it's safe to say it's above 6800 damage, and with the stun drawback, it's probably at least in the 8k range.
    I'm thinking Hood/Loki, not Daken, and I wouldn't expect this to be stronger than Mystique's black.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    [So...isn't it obvious why they like Moonstone so much?
    Where's this pic from?
  • GrumpySmurf1002GrumpySmurf1002 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2015
    simonsez wrote:
    Not sure where 'support' line is drawn (is Daken support?) but think it's safe to say it's above 6800 damage, and with the stun drawback, it's probably at least in the 8k range.
    I'm thinking Hood/Loki, not Daken, and I wouldn't expect this to be stronger than Mystique's black.

    Why not? It does considerably more base damage than Mystique, and scales up at level 2 where Mystiques does not.

    At level 5, Mystique's stats from lvl40 to 166 also improve by the 1.7% number (986 -> 3130 base, 17 per level (~1.7% of 986); 1316->4172 conditional, 22.66 per level, ~1.7% of 1316)

    Cyclops is at 937 base, 549 conditional, just at level 2. It would have to almost literally not increase between level 2 & level 5 to do less damage than Mystique, or follow a completely different scaling condition than what I'm likely to prove is fairly consistent across all abilities as current.

    Edit: Looks like it's only holding for 3* so far. XForce/4Thor don't conform to 1.7% base per level increases. Beast/Blade do. Panther and GSBW look to be in the 5% tier with Cap and Torch's red.
  • Phantron wrote:
    I wish D3 stop making these characters that can accidentally go into an infinite combo because it's apparently very hard to figure out if color A generates color B and color B generates color A you got a problem there. Other than some kind of possible infinite combo trick I don't see much point to this character. The abilities look solid in a world without X Force except that's not the correct world. Or is the point of this character that you can have even more broken stuff? When can we get a green ability that generates yellow so that character can infinite with Thor (3*)? Why keep on make characters with decent 4/5 match moves and pretend you don't have a guy that can take out half of the guys with a 3 match move?

    Since it's an X-Force world; guess we won't see you grinding for good ol' Cyclops in PVE or PVP?

    You could just admit that not all characters can be on X-Force, 4or, or even Blade or MQ level. Some characters are more suited for PVE, not PVP. Some characters are just self-indulgences. But, it's lots of fun getting new covers so you can fun playing the characters later. The ones I feel bad for are the ones with X-Force or 4or and that is all they use except when forced to by Essential nodes, Featured PVP's, or lock outs. That seems boring.

    Well if you don't use Xforce/Thor...no 3* covers...boring.

    After your fun PVE where you get 1-5 covers, then what? No iso, no hp, no more covers. Unfortunately this game comes down to Xforce/Thor = winning = 3* covers = no use for 3* covers since you were forced to get xforce/thor.

    Thankfully 8 hour refreshers came so you aren't sacrificing all of your life for little reward anymore.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Switchman wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    I wish D3 stop making these characters that can accidentally go into an infinite combo because it's apparently very hard to figure out if color A generates color B and color B generates color A you got a problem there. Other than some kind of possible infinite combo trick I don't see much point to this character. The abilities look solid in a world without X Force except that's not the correct world. Or is the point of this character that you can have even more broken stuff? When can we get a green ability that generates yellow so that character can infinite with Thor (3*)? Why keep on make characters with decent 4/5 match moves and pretend you don't have a guy that can take out half of the guys with a 3 match move?

    Since it's an X-Force world; guess we won't see you grinding for good ol' Cyclops in PVE or PVP?

    You could just admit that not all characters can be on X-Force, 4or, or even Blade or MQ level. Some characters are more suited for PVE, not PVP. Some characters are just self-indulgences. But, it's lots of fun getting new covers so you can fun playing the characters later. The ones I feel bad for are the ones with X-Force or 4or and that is all they use except when forced to by Essential nodes, Featured PVP's, or lock outs. That seems boring.

    Well if you don't use Xforce/Thor...no 3* covers...boring.

    After your fun PVE where you get 1-5 covers, then what? No iso, no hp, no more covers. Unfortunately this game comes down to Xforce/Thor = winning = 3* covers = no use for 3* covers since you were forced to get xforce/thor.

    Thankfully 8 hour refreshers came so you aren't sacrificing all of your life for little reward anymore.

    Heroics are the main thing that matter now for these character builds. Since it is indeed an X-Force world, there is no argument against optimizing for heroics, in which case we want to know the best standalone build anyways so that we can do so. Maybe down the line, they introduce something that promotes roster diversity, but until then, it still makes sense to discuss what the build is assuming no X-Force for the purposes of Heroics.
  • I would also strongly recommend Uncanny X-Men #201, where he battles (Mohawk) Storm for leadership of the team - also featuring the first appearance of Cable as a baby (Nathan Summers).

    Do not dismiss the original run of X-Factor, especially issues #65 - 68 - besides the amazing artwork by Whilce Portacio, they are the issues where baby Nathan Summers is abducted by Apocalypse and taken to the future where he eventually grows to become Cable.

    Also the New X-Men storyline Planet X, that (spoiler alert) concludes (again) with Jean Grey dying in issue #150.

    All key moments in the character's development, IMO.
  • h469E7603
    ...also, black.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Why not?
    Purely guessing based on the interview. Since they specified it can down a "support character", I take that to mean the lowest level of health. Otherwise, they shouldn't have needed to specify that it can down a "support character".
  • john1620bjohn1620b Age Unconfirmed Posts: 367
    ark123 wrote:
    john1620b wrote:
    Of course I know that blue is 4* Thor's best skill. I wasn't saying it should *replace* Thor's own combo -- my point was that sometimes you end up collecting yellow/red without getting any blue, and if using Cyclops, you could still potentially win without even needing to launch blue.

    So you're bringing a support that maybe helps her use her worst skill instead of hood or loki to make her full combo happen faster.
    Yes, I am.

    Because sometimes Loki and Hood are downed. Because sometimes they're not useable. Because they're easier to one-shot. Because I like variety. There are lots of reasons why you might use a different support character.

    If you don't think Cyclops will be a viable team-mate for Thor, you're entitled to your opinion. I just happen to disagree with you.
  • AronditeArondite Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    john1620b wrote:
    ark123 wrote:
    john1620b wrote:
    Of course I know that blue is 4* Thor's best skill. I wasn't saying it should *replace* Thor's own combo -- my point was that sometimes you end up collecting yellow/red without getting any blue, and if using Cyclops, you could still potentially win without even needing to launch blue.

    So you're bringing a support that maybe helps her use her worst skill instead of hood or loki to make her full combo happen faster.
    Yes, I am.

    Because sometimes Loki and Hood are downed. Because sometimes they're not useable. Because they're easier to one-shot. Because I like variety. There are lots of reasons why you might use a different support character.

    If you don't think Cyclops will be a viable team-mate for Thor, you're entitled to your opinion. I just happen to disagree with you.

    Cyclops is not gonna be a bad hero. He's not gonna suck. He's not gonna be a burden on your team.

    But don't discuss him as a 4Hor enabler. If you're gonna use a 4Hor enabler, use a 4Hor enabler. Not a guy who barely does anything for her and happens to be able to stand on his own.
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