Upcoming PVE Mission Points Change

fight4thedream

First i want to thank the devs for listening to our feedback in regards to the current pVe refresh time format. Hopefully this change will be both meaningful and fruitful for both the game, the players and the devs. Although there are still a lot of unknowns on how this change will play out, i echo the sentiments that if this 8 hour trial run proves to be a "failure" that the devs consider a 4 hour refresh time.

With that being said, i agree with DavyBang:

DayvBang wrote:

Competitive pve is still a bad idea, IMO, but this will probably help.

As i have mentioned before, after a player has graduated from Prologue there is an extreme dearth of non-competitive content which i honestly find a bit baffling. You use non-competitive content to attract new players yet with the exception of the Gauntlet you offer nothing in terms of non-competitive play to try to keep them. i can understand why in Year 1 the devs may have felt it wasn't that important since the game was still fresh and young but as things stand now the player base has matured to where an elite has clearly emerged and dominates the competition. This is natural and no i'm not arguing for measures to give new players a handicap or that the devs should try to drive out the most loyal players of the game. However, this power scheme has significant, direct consequences toward n00b progression.

Yes, we know the mythic baby brackets exist. But once those baby tunas graduate from the kiddy pool, they have little chance of progressing at a reasonable pace in those big tanks full of uber whales, sharks, and crazy octopi. it's a scary world out there. Sure pVe is considered the place where the mighty tuna can get it's revenge, and if the environment is right (e.g. the rewards are not something a shark would care to go for the trouble for) they can out perform most of us, but as the 4hor pVe demonstrated, when the rewards are enticing enough, those poor tuna may be tough out of luck (with of course the occasional extraordinary exception).

What i am trying to get at here is that constant competition can be quite demoralizing and tiresome, especially when you are on the "losing" side of things (and even at times when you are on the "winning" side). The reason so many players look fondly on the Prologue is because there were no time constraints, no rankings, just you and the prizes you won and the ability to progress at your own pace. i understand why the devs utilize competition; it keeps people playing. But it also leads to fatigue and burnout.

i understand there are those that like the competitive aspects of pVe and i won't knock them for it. they have it figured out to a science and are good at what they do and should take pride and joy from that. but the reason myself, and others like me, keep asking for non-competitive content is because we would like something else to do than to worry about a ranking. New and different kinds of challenges that aren't all based on the same simple game principle of defeat three enemy AI characters. Freedom to take on a challenge knowing that you can take your time to look over the board carefully instead of rushing to fit as many matches as you can in.

A non-competitive game mode can be utilized to keep those casual players that don't ever crack the top 100, those vet players that are tired of the grind and constant battle, who need a breather every now and then but still would like to play the game and feel they are still progressing in a meaningful way. Obviously, pVe stands out as the best format to undergo the non-competitive treatment but i encourage the devs to consider mini-games and a quest mode that encourages the use of older characters that go untouched outside of buffs and requirements.

There is still plenty of untapped potential in this game and i'm hoping that the devs are able to make the most of it.

Anywhoo, once again you have my thanks for showing us all you do listen and care about the game and the player base. Keep up the great work D team!ﾞ☆⌒o(*^ｰﾟ)v

Unknown

JVReal wrote:

But now, since other people can't think or act for themselves, or self-moderate, I can only play for 20 minutes every 8 hours, and that I have no control over except to not play.

You can play 10 mins every 4 hours clearing half the nodes or 20 mins clearing half the nodes and using that extra time to calculate the best possible move each turn. You didn't follow the optimal clear pattern before so why do you have to do it now? Having the half clear option also allows you double the healthpacks per clear allowing you to clear nodes you might not have attempted before.

There are still options available, do you possess the willpower to continue to self-moderate?

Feedthebeast

Maybe not all pve should be 8 hours but a change of pace is nice

Unknown

I guess it's too much to hope for that we can choose when we enter subs, (like we were before the unannounced change) instead of being automatically entered into each sub when it begins.

Unknown

Moosemaster wrote:

JVReal wrote:

But now, since other people can't think or act for themselves, or self-moderate, I can only play for 20 minutes every 8 hours, and that I have no control over except to not play.

You can play 10 mins every 4 hours clearing half the nodes or 20 mins clearing half the nodes and using that extra time to calculate the best possible move each turn. You didn't follow the optimal clear pattern before so why do you have to do it now? Having the half clear option also allows you double the healthpacks per clear allowing you to clear nodes you might not have attempted before.

There are still options available, do you possess the willpower to continue to self-moderate?

To be fair... playing more often than every 8 hours will actively harm your score. Even when ppl played sub-optimally they were actively improving their score when they played every few hours or so. IF playing PvE more often than every 8 hours was something you personally enjoyed then I can legitimately see why you would be upset with this change. While I may not fully agree with him I can certainly see his point.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

To be fair... playing more often than every 8 hours will actively harm your score. Even when ppl played sub-optimally they were actively improving their score when they played every few hours or so. IF playing PvE more often than every 8 hours was something you personally enjoyed then I can legitimately see why you would be upset with this change. While I may not fully agree with him I can certainly see his point.

Choosing not to clear half the nodes at the very beginning so you can alternate between the nodes is not actively harming your score. You are missing out on a small amount of points from half the nodes you didn't have to actively clear in the beginning. I'm not suggesting he clear a node with a refresh timer on it. He is still getting the same amount of points for the same amount of clears, its just spread out over the hours so he can play more frequently.

Yes its going to hurt some people, including myself. But its still better for the game and you still have options.

Unknown

Color me excited! I welcome most changes in gameplay, makes the game feel less repetitive and more interesting. This change will let people have more time and health packs to do pvp. Maybe now I can do some Shield Sim between refreshes.

JVReal

Moosemaster wrote:

JVReal wrote:

But now, since other people can't think or act for themselves, or self-moderate, I can only play for 20 minutes every 8 hours, and that I have no control over except to not play.

You can play 10 mins every 4 hours clearing half the nodes or 20 mins clearing half the nodes and using that extra time to calculate the best possible move each turn. You didn't follow the optimal clear pattern before so why do you have to do it now? Having the half clear option also allows you double the healthpacks per clear allowing you to clear nodes you might not have attempted before.

There are still options available, do you possess the willpower to continue to self-moderate?

I hear you Moose. Interesting suggestion.

Though, I was following an optimal clear pattern and clearing multiple times before bed, it will be a tough one to not clear all the nodes if my health packs hold out. Some subs go quickly, and some take longer. When there are multiple subs running simultaneously, the stagger would be helpful. There were some Difficult Subs where I had no choice but to stagger runs to allow for health pack regeneration, so if the nodes are tough enough, there would be plenty of time span to stagger them for completion before having to start the run over again.

Going from 3 hours to 8 hours was too giant of a leap for my taste. I did find 3 hour refreshes to be better for me when I had projects going on at home. I could play when I took a break. 4 hours seemed the next logical step, but these guys at D3 seem to go from low to high with nothing in between.

8 hour shield refreshes on a 3 hour shield, 8 hour node refreshes from a 3 hour refresh. No scaling to Monster scaling. Nothing seems balanced when they adjust things. Why should I have expected anything different.

I guess I have no choice but to try it out and hope it sucks bigtime for everyone and that the "data" (whatever that data comprises of) reflects that 8 hours does in fact suck for refreshes.

Unknown

If you want to grind there's always the 6 stacks you can do in the last 8 hours. That's a lot more hardcore than anything anyone ever did even while on 2H 24M refresh time, and it'll pretty much guaranteed victory assuming you minimally kept up prior to this point.

over_clocked

Such a selfless dude, dat JVReal. No, I hope 8 hr refreshes suck big time just for you and other people that find it alright to have 2,5-3-4 hr refreshes in 2-2,5 days long subs.

JVReal

locked wrote:

Such a selfless dude, dat JVReal. No, I hope 8 hr refreshes suck big time just for you and other people that find it alright to have 2,5-3-4 hr refreshes in 2-2,5 days long subs.

No more selfish than people demanding 8 hours because they can't control themselves. Just because the liquor store is open 24 hours, doesn't mean I spend all 24 hours there.

To be fair, I've only ever known the 2.5 and 3 hour refreshes. Those of you who have played longer may be able to share some insight on what longer refreshes are like. I would like to hear your experiences because I truly don't understand the appeal to 8 hours or longer.

Trisul

JVReal wrote:

No more selfish than people demanding 8 hours because they can't control themselves. Just because the liquor store is open 24 hours, doesn't mean I spend all 24 hours there.

**** kind of straw man argument is that?

It's a matter of convenience, not compulsion.

JVReal

Trisul wrote:

JVReal wrote:

No more selfish than people demanding 8 hours because they can't control themselves. Just because the liquor store is open 24 hours, doesn't mean I spend all 24 hours there.

**** kind of straw man argument is that?

It's a matter of convenience, not compulsion.

How so? People's complaint was "the grind", thus compulsion. Compulsion created an inconvenience, though obviously not inconvenient enough to stop grinding.

Trisul

JVReal wrote:

How so? People's complaint was "the grind", thus compulsion. Compulsion created an inconvenience, though obviously not inconvenient enough to stop grinding.

Usually, there are two reasons for grinding a PvE:
1. Help your alliance as much as possible
2. Get high rankings to win covers

These objectives are not compulsions; we deliberately choose them as goals. To obtain these goals, the game requires anywhere from 30 min to 1 hr of gameplay for a full clear, dependent on roster and luck. Over a 24-hour period, this requires 8 clears to optimize, which we can estimate to 4-8 hours daily gametime.

"That is a lot of gametime to earn an optimal score, more than what the game should reasonably ask for." <--- [primary complaint of grinders]
"I can't control myself, please force me to play less." <--- [what you claim is their complaint]

Players that clear nearly optimally will do so in order to obtain their goal(s), and will choose to do so because their goals are worth the tedium, not because they lack the self-control necessary to stop playing the game. It's a calculated decision.

NorthernPolarity

At first i thought jvreal was crazy, but now i think i understand his point. To be fair, the underlying problem across all of this is that since jv cant compete in pvp due to roster, pve is the only place for him to play and feel like hes progressing meaningfully. The real real problem is the lack of content this game has to offer besides pvp and the one running pve. But wait, whats that you say? Trisul just data mined a new feature thats a daily pve (probably gauntlet style) that you can win 3* covers in?!?! Problem solved. JV has content that he can play during the pve refresh, and all of us raging alcohol... Err i mean grinders can stay sane and not feel compelled to grind 7x a day.

JVReal

Trisul wrote:

JVReal wrote:

How so? People's complaint was "the grind", thus compulsion. Compulsion created an inconvenience, though obviously not inconvenient enough to stop grinding.

Usually, there are two reasons for grinding a PvE:
1. Help your alliance as much as possible
2. Get high rankings to win covers

These objectives are not compulsions; we deliberately choose them as goals. To obtain these goals, the game requires anywhere from 30 min to 1 hr of gameplay for a full clear, dependent on roster and luck. Over a 24-hour period, this requires 8 clears to optimize, which we can estimate to 4-8 hours daily gametime.

"That is a lot of gametime to earn an optimal score, more than what the game should reasonably ask for." <--- [primary complaint of grinders]
"I can't control myself, please force me to play less." <--- [what you claim is their complaint]

Players that clear nearly optimally will do so in order to obtain their goal(s), and will choose to do so because their goals are worth the tedium, not because they lack the self-control necessary to stop playing the game. It's a calculated decision.

I completely agree with all the facts that you present. I bolded the point above that is my point. The choice is to set your goals to grind away and finding it worth the tedium. I too find it worth the tedium.

I enjoy playing, I try to play optimally, if I can't, I like knowing that when I do have a break in my life, I can hop on and play without much detriment because with 3 hour refreshes, missing one isn't too bad. What I do not like is that the game I enjoy playing will not be available to play optimally until I wait 8 hours. To me personally it feels absurd to have a phone game you can only play once every 8 hours.

Here's how I perceive my schedule to look like with 8 hour refreshes using my usual midnight slice:
For optimal play that puts me at:
1. midnight run, clear it once.
2. 8 am (though work starts at 8, so I clear it at 7 am for less points, putting me 9 hours away from full refresh)
3. 4 pm (though I don't get out of work until 5, home at 6pm, missing 2 hours of refreshed times since I won't play while driving)
4. 2 am (optimally 12 am... but wait, because of the delays from actual work time, i'm now actually at 2 am. we aren't supposed to have to get up in the middle of the night to play... thus the 8 hour refreshes...) won't happen since I sleep at night. So instead I double up my 6 pm run
5. 10 am. Since I doubled up my 6pm run so I can sleep, that puts me at a 16 hours for a refresh. taking me from 6pm to 10 am, the middle of my work morning. Wait until Lunch 12 pm for full points or play early at 7 am for less points pushing my refresh time 6pm.
6. 8 pm./6 pm depending on my choice of when I played in the morning or during lunch. A normal run and then progressively grind down nodes if it's a 48 hour node.

That gives me only 4 optimal runs in a 48 hour window because 8 hours is so darn awkward. The rest of my runs are worth less points, and/or miss more optimal play time with 8 hour refreshes than I ever did playing 3 hours. So much less fun. So much more impact missing those optimal refreshes.

With 3 hour refreshes, I am never given the feeling that I have to play for less points until the very end of the sub, or just before bed. The penalty is not as bad either because doubling up nodes before bed allows me time for sleeping and ready to play in the morning only adding another 3 hours, not another 8.

8 hour refreshes are a whole lot more restricting than 3 hours. 3 hours lets you live your life and play when you have time. 8 hour makes you feel like you can't play without penalty and if you don't or can't play right on the refresh, it compounds and you lose out a whole lot more than a 3 hour refresh. 8 hour feels more encroaching upon my life than 3 hours ever did.

Then again, that's just my take on it. I don't like a game telling me when I can and can't play. 3 hour refreshes never dictated when I played. 8 hour refreshes is an attempt at dictating when I play.

JVReal

NorthernPolarity wrote:

At first i thought jvreal was crazy, but now i think i understand his point. To be fair, the underlying problem across all of this is that since jv cant compete in pvp due to roster, pve is the only place for him to play and feel like hes progressing meaningfully. The real real problem is the lack of content this game has to offer besides pvp and the one running pve. But wait, whats that you say? Trisul just data mined a new feature thats a daily pve (probably gauntlet style) that you can win 3* covers in?!?! Problem solved. JV has content that he can play during the pve refresh, and all of us raging alcohol... Err i mean grinders can stay sane and not feel compelled to grind 7x a day.

Thank you for understanding it, wish I had expressed it that simply. That is essentially my feelings. The one event I felt successful in now feels like it's being taken away from me.

More content would be marvel-ous.

Unknown

I don't agree with the notion that PvE shouldn't be competitive, but it's baffling how every PvE event is competitive too. I'd think it'd be a no brainer to sell non competitive PvE chapters with a buy in like say for 250 HP you get a version of Prodigal Sun that you can go at your own pace that gives you say a heroic + 100 HP back at the end so that it looks like a decent value but still makes D3 money in the long run.

Unknown

Technically.... We asked for 4hrs based on poll results.

Casinos are open 24/7 and I've never seen a floor manager tell me to go to bed.

As with the cool downs, it's only forcing people to play on a preset schedule and not leisurely. 8hrs here, 8hrs there.... That's a lot of time for players to find another game to occupy their time. Once they find something they're allowed to play when they want to, it's going to be MPWho?

As with everything "addictive" it's a very low % of players that feel the need to wake up to **** feed the game.

GothicKratos wrote:

jzahm wrote:

Adam12 wrote:

You can still play the game as much as you like. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to play without waiting 8 hours between refreshes.

not without diminishing returns, which is bad for placement.

my initial point is that you are blaming a game for peoples decisions, not their own personal choices.

i'm done with this conversation. have a good day (or night, wherever you may be!)

Realistically, as we are all human beings, we should not give incentives for negative behavior in one another. It has nothing to do with holding one another's hands, and everything to do with good will and decency. Combined with the fact this is a competitive game mode, and we all know competition brings out the worth in us humans.

One could argue that the one's willing to make that sacrifice should get higher placement for making those sacrifices, but that's not what you're arguing at all. You're arguing that MPQ is coddling their playerbase, when all reality, it's simply doing what the community asked for -- try reading all the positive feedback in this thread.

mohio

I'm gonna get a little math-y in here. Basically just to say, calm down you guys, play when you want within your 8 hour window and don't worry so much (until the last 8 hours then prepare to go nuts). Here goes:

One additional recent "stealth" change besides the 3 hour refresh trial, is that there is an additional stack on each node. So now each stack will only take off 16.67% (1/6th) of the total points. For an 8 hour refresh, that is barely more than 2% an hour. So, have to go to bed 5 hours after your last clear? Well, clear it again and you still get 94% of max value. Sure it's not ideal, and lots of people WILL stay up or set alarms and get right at 100% for each clear up until the end. But you know what? Even if it's a 48 hour sub and you did your 6 full "normal" clears (at 0, 8, 16, 24, 32, 40 hours) for *only* 575% of full points, you can still make that up just by doing a little extra at the end. It's all coming down to how much people can do at the end anyway, so being slightly behind going into it is surely unfortunate, but is no insurmountable challenge. Most people will still not budget enough time to do more than 2 clears, but that 3rd clear is still worth 67% of a full clear, and the 4th is worth 50%.

tl;dr - doesn't matter if you clear optimally or not, it's going to come down to the last 2-3 hours and who gets in that 3rd-4th-5th clear vs the guys that only have an hour and a half or so to play and will do as much as they can in that shorter amount of time.