**** Invisible Woman (Classic) **** [PRE 2015-04]

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  • Unknown
    Unknown
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    My attempt at a rework.
      Grant Invisibility - 15 yellowtile.png
      The Invisible Woman hides the weakest member of the team. Turn a chosen basic Yellow tile into an Invisibility tile. While it's on the board, the invisible character can't be targeted.
        Level 2: Costs 1
      yellowtile.png less
      Level 3: Costs 1 yellowtile.png less
      Level 4: Costs 1 yellowtile.png less and generates a strength 30 protect tile on a random black tile.
      Level 5: Costs 1 yellowtile.png less and generates a strength 50 protect tile on a random black tile
      Max Level: Strength 306 protect tile
        Force Bubbles - Passive bluetile.png
        Whenever Invisible Woman attacks by making a yellow match she uses her power to blast the battlefield with force bubbles, putting 1 random basic tile in a force bubble. At the beginning of the turn, Invisible Woman pops a force bubble, generating AP and dealing damage.
          Level 2: A force bubble is also generated whenever IW matches blue. Level 3: A force bubble is also generated whenever IW matches green. Level 4: Force bubbles may also randomly target enemy tiles. Level 5: 2 force bubbles are generated on each yellow, blue, or green match IW makes. 2 Force bubbles are popped at the beginning of each turn.
          Force Field Crush - 9 greentile.png
          Invisible Woman shatters a 3x3 area around 1 random Force Bubble, dealing 42 damage and unlocking but not destroying it. If there are no Force Bubbles on the board, she creates 1 in a random location. This ability ends the turn. Generates AP.
            Level 2: Unlocks or places 2 Force Bubbles Level 3: Each unlocked Force Bubble does 84 damage Level 4: Unlocks or places 3 Force Bubbles Level 5: Each unlocked Force Bubble does 168 damage
          Max Level: 724 damage for each released bubble


          Green is untouched. With yellow there's a reduced cost and a protect tile and higher levels. With Blue, it's a rework to represent her skill in attacking enemies, but also shielding the team with dangerous force bubbles as she does so. These force bubbles can then be used either in a large attack with the green ability, or gradually as a way to chip away at the enemy's morale while helping her own allies.
        • ErikPeter
          ErikPeter Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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          Not a fan. Her yellow is still awfully overpriced, and green is still turn-endy, and I feel like the board would quickly become clogged with bubbles as she matches YGB, since the more there are the harder it is to match them away.

          My newest idea for a fix comes from the idea that whatever happens, she needs to viable against other 4*s, which dish out giant 5-10k hits; Instead of just giving her a huge attack, Sue could instead be given the means to withstand/prevent the big hits. Basically, Blue can be mostly unchanged but make force bubbles way better. So something like

          blueflag.pngForce Bubbles 11 AP
            Locks 2 chosen tiles in Force Bubbles before creating a strength 147 Protect tile. PASSIVE If Sue or one of her allies would hit for more than 800 damage, unlocks one random Force Bubble, reducing damage from the attack by 80%.
          Level 2: Locks 3 chosen tiles.
          Level 3: Protect tile strength increased to 339.
          Level 4: Triggers if sue or one of her allies would be hit for more than 1350 damage, and reduces damage from the attack by 100%.
          Level 5: Creates 2 Protect tiles. (678 total)

          I think this would be good because it allows for specific countermeasures, like strike tiles or other cheap attacks that deal enough to break a bubble without feeling the attack is "wasted". And since it only triggers on big hits, should always be a welcome relief, unlike Elektra's black traps being used to soak up match damage.

          Other changes I'd suggest are making Green do more damage or not end the turn, and Yellow be cheaper and targetable (using an ally selection input like Colossus' Fastball Special).
        • ErikPeter
          ErikPeter Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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          konannfriends wrote:
          uhhmm.... Force Field Crush...... not useful...... Doesnt it deal a base damage of 2400 , plus damage for the 24 tiles destroyed. plus the fact that your gaining 24 ap.... i dont think that it should end the turn but i see why it does. if you could easily deploy force bubbles and detonate them for 9 ap, potentially getting 3-5 of those green back. and detonating again. into a loop..... seems fun to use and awsome.. all while gaining ap in your other colors.
          What I was saying was, if it has to end the turn, it should only do so when you detonate the force bubbles, not when you use it to create random new ones.

          But actually since you mentioned it, "2400 + tile damage + 24 AP", all for the low, low price of 13 bluetile.png + 9 greentile.png , is bad. That there is why this thread has been so active lately. From a damage perspective, scaled up to level 270, Grey Suit Widow (one of the "weaker" characters) would do 6000 AoE damage (+ tile damage to the target) for 9 purpletile.png and roughly 9 greentile.png . She's considered weaker because it's harder to gather a lot of AP in two specific colors than it is to gather only one (and the AI doesn't use her purple properly on Defense.)

          That comparison doesn't consider the usefulness of Force Field Crush's AP gain, but GSW's Deceptive Tactics generates roughly 10 greentile.png and 6+ in other colors, plus crits and tile damage of 1.5-3k, for 9 purpletile.png . That's almost as good as Force Field Crush without having to save up AP beforehand (not to mention the process of collecting and maxing a 4* character to get her to "full power"). Other AP generation powers are similarly better; Aggressive Recon gets you 24 AP for 11 purpletile.png , with the added bonus of setting your foes back. X-force generates an average of 4700 damage and 9 AP for 11 blacktile.png (and drains 10 AP from your opponent.). Blade steals 3 AP per turn as long as his tile remains, plus dealing 2k damage at 166 (scaled to 270, it'd have to be much more). Loki gets AP for free. Powers that flood the board with tiles of given colors usually generate more AP then they cost, plus the damage from multiple criticals and cascades (Thor, Iron Fist, MMags, Mystique, Hulk's Rage, etc., etc.)

          I cede that the the 5th rank is where powers really shine, and after a year and a half of playing, my IW is only 4/3/3; Still, that doesn't excuse how weak she feels. By comparison, my 3/2/0 Fury is much more potent. A 4* who is essentially unusable at 10 covers--even in the 3* meta--diminishes the core draw of the game which is the excitement of finding rare and powerful characters.

          Basically there are two schools of thought for IW changes:
          • Tweak her powers to be stronger, using the same design intent, or
          • Rework her entirely
          The first option has issues, mostly for balance issues as mentioned above, but also because it's not that fun. I do occasionally pop her into a match, just to mess around. The pieces are there--Building up blue, detonating green, getting some AP to fuel other powers; maybe getting lots of yellow and turning multiple team members invisible--just cute little things you can do but they don't really feel powerful. Even worse, they often kind of get in the way; Perhaps you lock up a deadly CD, but then a cascade or the AI unlocks it. What would have been a sigh of a relief is a sigh of frustration, since you "protected" that CD from being simply matched away and now it's coming back to get you (and is less likely to be adjacent to some tiles of the proper color).

          If we keep the powers working "as they do", but stronger--doubling the damage done by green, perhaps, and making blue and yellow a couple of AP cheaper, it doesn't solve the problem that the powers are anti-fun for both sides. 8 force bubbles isn't much more useful than 5, but it does make it harder for me to make matches. If I'm in a situation where locking 8 tiles is necessary--a ton of enemy CDs, or big attack tiles--and ONE of those gets unlocked randomly, it is often very difficult to match away before the negative effect happens because the board is all clogged up. Activating Blue's nothing but a Protect tile and minor frustration unless there's nasty tiles on the board, or if you've already built up some Green. And fighting Sue? She can be a pain to defeat in PvP, thanks to board clog, but reducing the choices I have when matching tiles just makes the game feel random and pointless.

          And finally, but perhaps just as importantly, the bubbles/crush dynamic isn't really thematic. Bubbles? She's the strongest member of the team (and a 4*) because her abilities are crazy-powerful. Her effect on the battle should be huge and game-shifting, not just a speedbump. I suppose my question to the devs would be, "What is the design intent behind Sue's powers?" Was she just supposed to own PvE (where it's potentially easier to get the blue and green you need to get the chain going, and there are more tiles worth Bubbling)? What role is she supposed to play on a team?

          Tl;dr: Force Bubbles gotta go. Sue should be the 4* Defender.
        • Unknown
          Unknown
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          I still vouch for a passive invisibility skill, how about if it was like "As long as Invisible women is still alive, the lowest HP target cant be targeted"?
          That would probably make a nice pairing with say The Hood who cant be targeted until IW HP is lower than Hood.
        • ErikPeter
          ErikPeter Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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          That's a neat idea, but how do you make it improve over 5 ranks?

          Maybe "If an ally takes x% of their maximum health in damage, Sue turns them invisible (creating an invisibility tile)" ... And then higher ranks lower the x% threshold. So maybe your opponent uses Rage of the Panther and your whole team turns invisible until your enemy can destroy some of the tiles. Or to weaken it they could be "Invisibility Countdown tiles" until rank 5. And the devs would be happy with it because it means you lost a chunk of HP and probably will reach for a heal pack icon_e_smile.gif
        • konannfriends
          konannfriends Posts: 246 Tile Toppler
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          akiratang wrote:
          I still vouch for a passive invisibility skill, how about if it was like "As long as Invisible women is still alive, the lowest HP target cant be targeted"?
          That would probably make a nice pairing with say The Hood who cant be targeted until IW HP is lower than Hood.

          I think that passive would be awesome but yeah how would you improve it through covers?
          The devs have been creating powers that work with ap and also have w passive but I could see what they could give her.

          I see that everyone wants to give force bubbles the guillotine so I'm guessing she will be completely reworked if the devs fo with the highest wants.
          I personally don't care about the force bubbles But I really like the force field crush ability. Granted you have to drop 13 blue ap to get it to work.

          Whatever then end game is I hope she keeps the ability to gain 24 ap.
        • DrNitroman
          DrNitroman Posts: 966 Critical Contributor
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          konannfriends wrote:
          I see that everyone wants to give force bubbles the guillotine so I'm guessing she will be completely reworked if the devs fo with the highest wants.
          I personally don't care about the force bubbles But I really like the force field crush ability.
          The fact is that since IW was released, they never tried to design another characters using bubble forcefield.png special tiles whereas special tiles like web web.png tiles, trap trap.png tiles or more recently charged ones are used by different characters. So I guess it's a hint that they will give up forcefield.png tiles.

          But I agree with you, I hope that IW will keep some kind of force field crush ability together with an invisibility power as I feel these 2 abilities are essential for icon_invisiblewoman.png.
        • action711
          action711 Posts: 129 Tile Toppler
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          have you ever seen anyone fight with her? I haven't.

          Have you ever fought with her yourself? I haven't.

          She's a four star character, supposedly Legendary! Yet when I check out other people's roster she's usually left at lvl70.

          I know there's an intricate discussion going on about her powers and how they could change, but I want to say this:

          Profanity is forbidden on the forums. Even if you spell it with numbers. Please don't do it again.

          Change her, quicktime!
        • simonsez
          simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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          Given that the devs have now made it clear they don't intend for 4s to be more powerful than 3s, and given that the Rags rework makes it clear that whoever is doing the reworks these days is really bad at it, I think we can all stop wetting our pants over IW. If/when they ever get around to buffing her, I'm completely confident it'll be nothing at all to generate enthusiasm.
        • JamieMadrox
          JamieMadrox Posts: 1,798 Chairperson of the Boards
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          Merged the rant topic with the main character discussion. Please keep character discussions to the character's topic or post it to the General forum.
        • Square
          Square Posts: 380 Mover and Shaker
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          simonsez wrote:
          Given that the devs have now made it clear they don't intend for 4s to be more powerful than 3s, and given that the Rags rework makes it clear that whoever is doing the reworks these days is really bad at it, I think we can all stop wetting our pants over IW. If/when they ever get around to buffing her, I'm completely confident it'll be nothing at all to generate enthusiasm.
          It's strange, people seemed to be happy with Loki and Doom, so why think the person/people working on it are really bad at it?
        • simonsez
          simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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          Square wrote:
          It's strange, people seemed to be happy with Loki and Doom, so why think the person/people working on it are really bad at it?
          Because I see Rags. Let me repeat what I said. Whoever is doing the reworks THESE DAYS is really bad at it.
        • Unknown
          Unknown
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          Force Bubbles:

          Current:

          13 bluetile.png
          Susan focuses her power to lock the enemy down and save the team. Locks 2 chosen tiles in Force Bubbles before creating a Blue Protect tile with a strength of 91.

          Level Upgrades:
          Level 2: Locks 5 chosen tiles.
          Level 3: Increases Protect tile strength to 200.
          Level 4: Locks 8 chosen tiles.
          Level 5: Increases Protect tile strength to 400.

          Proposed:

          9 bluetile.png
          Susan focuses her power to lock the enemy down and save the team. Locks 1 chosen tile in Force Bubbles before creating a Blue Protect tile with a strength of 45.

          Level Upgrades:
          Level 2: Locks 2 chosen tiles.
          Level 3: Increases Protect tile strength to 100.
          Level 4: Locks 4 chosen tiles.
          Level 5: Increases Protect tile strength to 200.

          PASSIVE: Susan is free to move any Force Bubbles on the board. Special tiles within Force Bubbles matched by Susan's team become basic tiles.

          I think this would be a lot more interesting of a use of Sue Richard's tile locking, when it only applies to the enemy team (provided they don't have their own IW), then it could be used as a neat offensive force when it could allow a setups of match-4s that the enemy team can't make. To prevent AI bugs, Force Bubbles will still be calculated as immovable tiles, so that the board reshuffles, even if an Invisible Woman were alive on the team and able to make a match with a moved bubble. To offset this advantage, an IW on defense would immediately use her targeted Force Bubbles to encase the player's special tiles, as many as possible.

          The cost of the ability is reduced and the generated bubbles halved, as well as reduced Protect Tile potency, in order to offset the boost in utility that this would create. While the potency is halved, the cost is reduced by only a third, given the improved utility and the ability to better control when and how often Force Bubbles can be placed.
        • FaustianDeal
          FaustianDeal Posts: 760 Critical Contributor
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          Thinking about your suggestion I was pondering the other things force bubbles have been used for that could make the character more interesting:

          What if enemy countdown tile locked inside of a force bubble continued to count down while inside the bubble? If they reached reached 0 inside the bubble they would disappear with no effect. The image here would be Susan encasing an explosive (rocket launcher, tommy gun fire, etc.) inside of a force bubble to protect her team from the effects. (The team is still able to receive benefits from friendly countdown tiles - again thematically appropriate.)

          I would also say that friendly special tiles located inside of a force bubble cannot be targeted by abilities that would normally be able to hit them. (Captain Marvel can't destroy a protect tile inside a bubble, Moonstone can't steal a countdown inside a bubble, etc.) If you want to say that the first cast of a power that would affect a bubbled tile pops the bubble, that makes logical sense and gives players/AI another avenue to get at the concealed tiles to destroy them.

          Force bubbles probably shouldn't be able to stay in place if IF is downed/stunned though. Again, from a thematic perspective her force fields are not typically depicted as remaining in place when she loses consciousness.

          Some of the best ideas for changing her bubbles run into problems because bubbles, as implemented now, are neutral. If both teams run IW, bubbles generated by either IW are fair game for the other to manipulate or pop. I don't know if that is 100% thematically accurate.
        • konannfriends
          konannfriends Posts: 246 Tile Toppler
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          simonsez wrote:
          Square wrote:
          It's strange, people seemed to be happy with Loki and Doom, so why think the person/people working on it are really bad at it?
          Because I see Rags. Let me repeat what I said. Whoever is doing the reworks THESE DAYS is really bad at it.

          I personally dont have a problem with rags rework. i think that his green could have been made more effective but other than that hes a high health green ap generated who can deal decent damage for low ap cost. right now he a suitable support for Gsbw and Squirell girl. as he can also tank for them.

          also please try to stay on topic the mods are always lurking!

          in Invisible womans case lets hope who ever did the Xforce rework does hers as well. and is she is not getting a rework lets hope who ever did sentry or or 2* hawkeye does not touch her.

          I dont even care if shes top tier or not , i just want her to be usable. people say she is better than elektra but i dont see it? i mean people really ahte anything thats less than nick fury/Godess
        • dkffiv
          dkffiv Posts: 1,039 Chairperson of the Boards
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          konannfriends wrote:
          simonsez wrote:
          Square wrote:
          It's strange, people seemed to be happy with Loki and Doom, so why think the person/people working on it are really bad at it?
          Because I see Rags. Let me repeat what I said. Whoever is doing the reworks THESE DAYS is really bad at it.

          I personally dont have a problem with rags rework. i think that his green could have been made more effective but other than that hes a high health green ap generated who can deal decent damage for low ap cost. right now he a suitable support for Gsbw and Squirell girl. as he can also tank for them.

          also please try to stay on topic the mods are always lurking!

          in Invisible womans case lets hope who ever did the Xforce rework does hers as well. and is she is not getting a rework lets hope who ever did sentry or or 2* hawkeye does not touch her.

          I dont even care if shes top tier or not , i just want her to be usable. people say she is better than elektra but i dont see it? i mean people really ahte anything thats less than nick fury/Godess

          GSBW and SG are basically supports and you don't want to bring 2 supports to a battle.

          IW is terrible and has bad internal synergy. Her yellow is incredibly expensive and too easy to randomly remove for what it does. Her blue is decent and her green, while in theory is decent, is terrible because it directly works against her blue and yellow. You can't control the explosions and its too risky given that you may destroy your own protect or invisibility tile. You're forced to place 8 bubbles with 5 covers which means you're either stacking them all in 1 corner to avoid blowing up your special tiles or you're spreading them out to maximize the chance you'll get AP with green. She also has less hp than something like a third of the 3*s.
        • Unknown
          Unknown
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          I don't have enough covers of IW to really give her powers a whirl but from what I hav eplayed I think the biggest issues are that A) Invisibilty is practically useless. At least the form Xavier was given is pretty interesting.

          B) Force bubble creation is way too slow. I would much rather have yellow be a power that helped feed blue, or reduce the cost of blue.

          C) Force crush ending the turn, even if no bubbles were destroyed. Again, being able to use it as a bubble creator and not lose your turn would help speed up her damage potential.
        • monsterjoe77
          monsterjoe77 Posts: 20 Just Dropped In
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          really hoping for a reworking of this character. i have 9 covers for her. just waiting for her to be more useful.
        • whitecat31
          whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
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          I look at Professor X's invisibility and it cost 7 AP and it is better than Sue Richards at half the cost.
          It seems so unfair.
        • NighteyesGrisu
          NighteyesGrisu Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
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          whitecat31 wrote:
          I look at Professor X's invisibility and it cost 7 AP and it is better than Sue Richards at half the cost.
          It seems so unfair.

          yeah, the way they're ignoring her you could almost think she's invisible or something...
        This discussion has been closed.

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