**** Invisible Woman (Classic) **** [PRE 2015-04]

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

I think the main problem is that when offensive character beat you, the fight is just over and you're dead and you move on. When defensive characters checkmate you, you're left to linger in the match until they slowly erode your health over time. That's much more aggravating to play against.

Other that that a lot of people don't know where the retreat button is I don't see that as a problem, though a working defensive character completely neuters the shield hopping meta game if the said character is strong enough to drag games out outside of the comfort of shield hopping range even if the said character cannot win. For example, imagine a character that has a passive: "Cannot be downed until 10 minutes has elasped". It'd be an unbelievably strong defensive character even though this ability does absolutely nothing to help you winning. Until the shield hopping meta game is somehow fixed I don't think there's much point to try to make defense strong. It doesn't work well by design (defense cannot be boosted, an early defensive move does very little to impact the game versus an early offensive move) and if it somehow worked, you would end up destroying the shield hopping metagame. Now I don't have a particularly high opinion of shield hopping, but it makes D3 some money and a lot of people seem to enjoy it, so I don't think it makes sense to destroy it for no reason without anything to show for it, even in the name of balance.

El Satanno

ark123 wrote:

There are plenty ways to make defensive characters playable. You can make a character with a cheap ability that stops any abilities of a certain color from being played the next turn, or that makes the opponent's skills more expensive (like SL, except good - none of this countdown tile ****), or you can make heroes that reflect damage (like cStorm or hulk, but a passive that actually reflected a portion of the total damage received the following turn/turns, or a smaller reflection that's a passive). This last idea directly counters characters that overkill for several thousand, and makes people actually think before just jamming xf 4t in every team.

I'm not sure why no one has mentioned anything like this before, but it's brilliant. Really, why are 2* Storm and Hulk the only characters that have (somewhat) meaningful damage retaliation? That's a great way to make IW someone valuable as well. Give her something offensive to boot, and suddenly you've got an opponent a little bit like Deadpool: Don't want to focus on them instead of a really powerful attacker, but can't afford to completely ignore them, either. If you can't nuke her to into oblivion in a single shot, she could be a real pain in the **** to deal with, like Hulk.

Nellobee

El Satanno wrote:

ark123 wrote:

There are plenty ways to make defensive characters playable. You can make a character with a cheap ability that stops any abilities of a certain color from being played the next turn, or that makes the opponent's skills more expensive (like SL, except good - none of this countdown tile ****), or you can make heroes that reflect damage (like cStorm or hulk, but a passive that actually reflected a portion of the total damage received the following turn/turns, or a smaller reflection that's a passive). This last idea directly counters characters that overkill for several thousand, and makes people actually think before just jamming xf 4t in every team.

I'm not sure why no one has mentioned anything like this before, but it's brilliant. Really, why are 2* Storm and Hulk the only characters that have (somewhat) meaningful damage retaliation? That's a great way to make IW someone valuable as well. Give her something offensive to boot, and suddenly you've got an opponent a little bit like Deadpool: Don't want to focus on them instead of a really powerful attacker, but can't afford to completely ignore them, either. If you can't nuke her to into oblivion in a single shot, she could be a real pain in the **** to deal with, like Hulk.

For IW, she should retaliate like crazy if you hit her allies. Because let's face it, you touch Sue's friends or family, and you are done for.

over_clocked

Another idea for rebalance... Boy we are sure full of those!

10 AP - Now You See Me
Place a 4-turn CD on a select non-CD tile, while on board, enemy can't use active skills in that colour, but your own active skills in that colour are 10% stronger.
2: 20%.
3: 30%.
4: 40%.
5: places 2 3-turn CDs for 2 colours the enemy can't use, your attacks in those are 30% stronger.

9 AP - Force Bubbles
Locks 2 chosen tiles in force bubbles. Passive: take x damage less for each force bubble.
2: locks 3 tiles.
3: locks 5 tiles.
4: locks 6 tiles.
5: takes 100 damage less for each bubble.

9 AP - Force Field Crush
Destroys 3 chosen force bubbles and 8 tiles around them, gaining AP and dealing x damage for each bubble. Ends the turn. If no bubbles, places 3 and keeps the turn.
2-4 increase damage dealt, 5 always keeps the turn.

Unknown

Wonko33 wrote:

Mattfal wrote:

Troll power: 21ap force away: invisible woman throws a force bubble at target character, which carries them away from the battlefield

or her invisibility power make it that you can't see who one of her teammate is when you pick them in PvP , you see her, one other and third is mystery until they use one of their powers

Ha. That's a fun suggestion.

Unknown

Or make her yellow passive: any damaging move that targets her has a %chance to completely miss. Forget the tile business entirely and make her invisible. Then take turn ending off of her green and change nothing else. She now has the capability to go infinite and is quite difficult to remove.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

Or make her yellow passive: any damaging move that targets her has a %chance to completely miss. Forget the tile business entirely and make her invisible. Then take turn ending off of her green and change nothing else. She now has the capability to go infinite and is quite difficult to remove.

I was trying to think of something similar, but wasn't sure how it should work:
Idea 1:
If Sue Storm is dealt X damage or more, destroy a random yellow tile (Does not generate AP). If that yellow tile was an invisibility tile, Sue Storm dodges the attack and instead takes 0 damage.
Passive: At the beginning of the turn, Sue Storm places a yellow invisibility tile on a basic yellow tile.

Idea 2:
If Sue Storm takes damage while an invisibility tile is out, a random yellow tile is destroyed instead. If the tile destroyed is not the invisibility tile, the attack misses, dealing 0 damage.
11 AP: Sue Storm places an invisibility tile on a random yellow tile.

Either one makes invisibility powerful enough to be worth using, eg a 4* ability, while taking into account battle fatigue by reducing the number of yellow tiles when she dodges. It also allows the ability to stack the power, without necessarily being too overpowering. Downside is that her Achilles Heel would be X-Force's Surgical Strike, but he is a master assassin. Barring that, it also makes her more dangerous in a long battle, as she effectively changes the environment to enable to her hide better.

Unknown

Lidolas wrote:

What about a passive that works somewhat similar to ?

This makes good sense to me, though I'm not sold that it should be a passive. Some kind of trap tile mechanic actually makes sense for someone who can make invisible force barriers, and clearly now that they have this damage negation mechanic coded it's a no-brainer to give some version of it to Sue in a way that protects other members of the team and not just herself as Elektra's does. Another way to go would be a power that makes a short duration countdown tile that negates a big hit. Hell, combine them. Make said countdown tile, but if it's matched it makes a trap (or two, or three) that eats damage. There could even be consequences then for matching the traps. Possibilities abound.

papa07 wrote:

What about an active/passive like Doom's purple where she creates a bubble at the start of each turn?

This idea I like a lot. If she's going to have bubbles and/or protect tiles they need to be way faster. I think it's pretty clear these late game defensive powers like Sentinel of Liberty and Force Bubbles are just bad. Some kind of active/passive power a la Doom's purple might work, combining her current blue and green into one power by pooping out bubbles every turn up to a certain number determined by how many covers you have with the ability to pop them as the active component.

Nellobee wrote:

For IW, she should retaliate like crazy if you hit her allies. Because let's face it, you touch Sue's friends or family, and you are done for.

I like this suggestion too. Could work sort of like DP's black. If your attack would damage someone other than Sue for some amount of damage, she puts up a barrier that negates a certain amount.

There's actually a lot of good suggestions in this thread. Maybe one of the developers will read it and, you know, develop something. She certainly needs the help, the poor lass.

Unknown

FFC needs a buff more than anything else. If we could select the 3 bubbles that would be the bees knees and close to Xforce and 4or or at least Fury level. At the very least, we should be able to pick 1 bubble and the other 2 bubbles be random.

Taganov

The_Valeyard wrote:

FFC needs a buff more than anything else. If we could select the 3 bubbles that would be the bees knees and close to Xforce and 4or or at least Fury level. At the very least, we should be able to pick 1 bubble and the other 2 bubbles be random.

Yup. Tired of exploding my own shield.

dkffiv

Leave her at squishy tier HP, have yellow passively add a single 400/500/800 (3/4/5 cover) strength yellow protect tile at the beginning of the turn (like Luke Cage) in addition to its current power (and cause attacks on invisible targets to be negated rather than jumping out of the way unless everyone is down). Cut blue in half (7 mana 4 bubbles, makes strength 400 random blue protect tile), leave green as is. With a nearly always up 800 strength protect tile match damage is negated and it can seriously hinder some special abilities.

I finally got my IW up to 270 and was playing with her against some level 166 non-top tier 3*. With 3 blue protect tiles up Punisher/Daken couldn't touch me and Torch did minimal damage.

Unknown

dkffiv wrote:

Leave her at squishy tier HP, have yellow passively add a single 400/500/800 (3/4/5 cover) strength yellow protect tile at the beginning of the turn (like Luke Cage) in addition to its current power (and cause attacks on invisible targets to be negated rather than jumping out of the way unless everyone is down). Cut blue in half (7 mana 4 bubbles, makes strength 400 random blue protect tile), leave green as is. With a nearly always up 800 strength protect tile match damage is negated and it can seriously hinder some special abilities.

I finally got my IW up to 270 and was playing with her against some level 166 non-top tier 3*. With 3 blue protect tiles up Punisher/Daken couldn't touch me and Torch did minimal damage.

You can't have a passive that strong because it still does something actively unless you mean to change Invisibility to just a passive. Those numbers seem overkill though since after about 200 you don't really need more protect strength. I'd rather IW passively avoids 5/15/25/35/50% of all attacks directed at her. That'd give her a very high amount of effective HP but you can still get unlucky, and it'd make cheap moves more effective on her since her overall HP is still low.

Unknown

at the very least, 4* should be at least as good as the very top 3* characters. She's barely better than beast right now, and not as good as several 2*.

AND she costs a lot more to max.

Since she's been around so long so there won't be many people flocking to buy her covers, D3 probably wouldn't be in any rush to rework her.

Unknown

LoreNYC wrote:

Since she's been around so long so there won't be many people flocking to buy her covers, D3 probably wouldn't be in any rush to rework her.

You could have said the same thing about X-Force, although clearly we're already well beyond anything that could be considered rush status. They'll probably get around to it. Eventually. I can see it now, 2nd Anniversary tokens featuring increased drops of the new IW!

whitecat31

Ok back in 2014 This was the link
Invisible Woman Changes Coming! circa January 2014.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2184&p=30817

4-star heroes are intended to be formidable, end-game caliber opponents. Prior to this revision, Invisible Woman (one of the most powerful heroes in Marvel canon) wasn't fulfilling her role, or rating, as intended. Did somebody call her bag-lady ?

This tuneup should help establish her as a legendary team-mate.

I think they might want to take Invisible Woman out of the 4 star rotation of cover packs and upgrade her.

whitecat31

onimus wrote:

This is more an issue with the power of Xforce and 4hor than it is the weakness of IW.
But right now, in this game, if you aren't Thor or Xforce, you don't matter.

I am sorry I can not really agree with either statements.
First off we all matter. You can get first place without Disney Princess Thor. I will agree that Xforce makes things easier, but there are other combos out there that are decent. You don't have to have Disney Princess Thor.
Take for instance Hood with X force.
You can still rapidly climb with a 2 star combo of Storm and Magneto with full boosting and make top 10 with shield hopping.

Now to the point of Invisible Woman. She is a disappointment in many ways and it has nothing to do with Xforce or Thor.
Not only is every 4 star hero rated higher than her but almost every 3 star hero is rated higher than her by our fellow players.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21083 This was back in December.
The only 3 star characters considered worse than her is Doctor Octavius and Beast (who have been pulled to possibly be redone) Even Ares and OBW is rated higher than her.
Now the worst part is there clearly was some troll voting for Invisible Woman, but sadly those troll votes were 9 people laughingly ranking her number 2. One person ranked her number 1 and about 10 others put her in the top 5. To be fair, there was also troll votes for Doc Ock and Beast, but I still think either of them might be better than her.
If you take those troll votes away she slides below quite a few two stars including all the Thors.

Now new players who get her from a cover drop and are completely uneducated about the game are going to get excited by getting a 4 star character cover.
It is usually without finding out she is might be the worst investment in the entire game.
I know this because it happened to me.
Luckily, I never put ISO into her, but I see countless players with an invisible woman with ISO dropped into her useless wretched carcass.

Why is she so bad?
Two of her abilities cost too much to be effective.
The cheap ability only does damage if the expensive ability is used or she gets a chance to repeat the cheap ability.
The cheap ability really does not do that much damage ( 2100 damage with max level and max covers), and it also causes you to end your turn.
The cheap ability is the worst team up in the entire game since it does nothing but makes the AI lose a turn.
Let's not forget she is fragile and has lower hit points than all the other 4stars (8220hp when maxed).
She cost tons of to max level just like all other 4 star characters.
Her covers are almost impossible to get to fully cover the character for most new players. (Not exactly a bad thing considering the above items)
Her artwork is the least inspiring of all the female characters except squirrel girl, but to be fair Squirrel girl is supposed to be a laugh generating fun character.
I might have said all characters artwork but have you seen Bag Ladies opposite Bagman? You might have deleted him.

What is she good for?
Trolling fellow alliance members who ask for Team-ups.
Used in conjunction with bagman for retreating purposes. (although many other characters can fill this role)
Pathetic bragging rights.
She somehow makes MPQ money.

IamTheBiggs

tanis3303 wrote:

It's not even a difficult fix. Her abilities are already unique and interesting, and actually quite fun to play around with. They just cost WAY too much. Drop her yellow to 12. Drop her blue to 9 or 10. Remove the "end the turn" clause on her green. Done.

Agreed! Done.

Unknown

Is there a rework incoming for invisible woman?
Thought i saw something the other day that alluded to it
Cant find so maybe someone here knows ?

Unknown

NooTs wrote:

Is there a rework incoming for invisible woman?
Thought i saw something the other day that alluded to it
Cant find so maybe someone here knows ?

They mentioned it in the interview a month or so ago that they plan to rework beast, she hulk, doc oct, and Sue Storm.

Unknown

Ah ha thx buddy
Thought i was going crazy