Planned Updates To Shields - New Start Date

Options
1101113151621

Comments

  • Westy3079
    Options
    I understand that this change is to make it harder for the top scorers but surely it's just going to make it harder for everyone? As someone who has been playing about 400 days I still only have 1 fully covered 3 star, I have plenty close at 11 or 12 but don't have the ISO to max them & even if I did I wouldnt max them because I don't want to screw myself out of playing pve competitively. Why are we continually penalised for progressing & trying to do well in this game?
    I work my **** off every month to progress myself & my alliance but I've only ever been lucky enough/spent enough to get to 800 points twice.
    I would love the chance to get some of the higher progression rewards but it's not possible, I'm never going to get top spot in any event so my only way to get more xforce of fthor covers is to buy them or get lucky. All the other options are taken By people who already have one or 2 complete covered characters of the one I am trying to get. They have spent & or played hard so I'm not taking anything away from them but why do I have to fight against peoe that totally eclipse my roster, I'm happy to have a go at beating fully maxed 3 star teams & expect to fight people a bit better than me to progress, maybe even a team with one 4 star but fighting 2 & another regular 3 star boosted to the same levels is pretty much impossible even if I boost the hell out of it..
    Any luck I get is usually for some lame character that I'm only collecting for completions sake.
    Just wondering what I have to do to progress & become competitive in pvp short of throwing a load of money at it? I know this is supposed to address that but it just feels that as soon as I gain any traction that the goalposts get moved again.
  • whitecat31
    whitecat31 Posts: 579 Critical Contributor
    Options
    TheDobot wrote:
    Maybe this has been touched on, but I want to write it anyway. I've been thinking about this change and I'm afraid for the average player now. The hard hitters are going to have to play more and that means they are going to feast on the lower and mid range teams in the bracket. Before no one ever had to worry about those players because they were shielded, but now they might be playing at the end crushing the average player who is just trying to just get in the top 100. Does anyone else feel this way? Just a note too...I'm not complaining just throwing this out there.

    Well of course. It will be just like the lightning round environments. You skip around looking for easy teams to poach, because you can beat them with very little risk and health loss. Besides you will get a nice iso reward while doing it. The established teams, will easilyy beat down other peoples new teams.
    You could say, the way you search for teams won't allow for that once you hit a certain threshold. I would say I have teammates on Q in my alliances that I will purposely suicide into, to build up their points.
    It works like this. 14 players in an alliance of 20 will beat the crud out of the 2 to 3 star transitioning teams, until a threshold of 650 is met. The other 6 in the alliance get designated as special targets and get attacked by 14 players who all lose on purpose as fast as possible, using useless characters like invisible woman, bagman, one star characters, and re queuing them up to do it again as fast as possible creating a large node of opportunity to hit later. Basically lose to as many teammates as possible to drop down to the lower ranks, and pound the 2 star teams into oblivion rinse and repeat and harvest tons of ISO along the way.
    The two star teams that would have been ignored in the past, are now to be stepped upon.
  • _RiO_
    _RiO_ Posts: 1,047 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    whitecat31 wrote:
    TheDobot wrote:
    Maybe this has been touched on, but I want to write it anyway. I've been thinking about this change and I'm afraid for the average player now. The hard hitters are going to have to play more and that means they are going to feast on the lower and mid range teams in the bracket. Before no one ever had to worry about those players because they were shielded, but now they might be playing at the end crushing the average player who is just trying to just get in the top 100. Does anyone else feel this way? Just a note too...I'm not complaining just throwing this out there.

    Well of course. It will be just like the lightning round environments. You skip around looking for easy teams to poach, because you can beat them with very little risk and health loss. Besides you will get a nice iso reward while doing it. The established teams, will easilyy beat down other peoples new teams.
    You could say, the way you search for teams won't allow for that once you hit a certain threshold. I would say I have teammates on Q in my alliances that I will purposely suicide into, to build up their points.
    It works like this. 14 players in an alliance of 20 will beat the crud out of the 2 to 3 star transitioning teams, until a threshold of 650 is met. The other 6 in the alliance get designated as special targets and get attacked by 14 players who all lose on purpose as fast as possible, using useless characters like invisible woman, bagman, one star characters, and re queuing them up to do it again as fast as possible creating a large node of opportunity to hit later. Basically lose to as many teammates as possible to drop down to the lower ranks, and pound the 2 star teams into oblivion rinse and repeat and harvest tons of ISO along the way.
    The two star teams that would have been ignored in the past, are now to be stepped upon.

    Yep. This is more or less the scenario that's playing in my head as well.

    So; once again D3P/Demiurge have not quite thought this change through to its logical conclusion...
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    for once, this wasn't a late Friday afternoon news-dump
    Might as well have been. It's not like Hi-Fi has been around to address any of the reasons why this is an awful idea.
  • CNash
    CNash Posts: 952 Critical Contributor
    Options
    This is more of a comment on how changes are communicated than on the topic of changes to shields, but... how about when a change is in the works, float the idea in the forum first? Instead of "this is going to happen, here are the specifics and why we're doing it", something like "We're considering making this change; we'd appreciate some feedback and will take your concerns into consideration during the planning process." I know David says, "Your feedback is welcomed", but "welcomed" doesn't necessarily mean "we're going to pay attention to it".

    It gives the community a heads-up well ahead of the change, it lets people feel more involved in the evolution of the game (right now, this thread feels like half constructive feedback, and half pleading with the devs to do things differently), and it helps to mitigate the "father knows best" attitude that game developers tend to have. I get that it's their product, they're the ones being paid to make it better, but at the moment it feels a little like when Microsoft announce changes to Windows or Office - "You'll really love our changes, and if you don't, well... sucks to be you I guess, we're the industry standard!".
  • CNash wrote:
    This is more of a comment on how changes are communicated than on the topic of changes to shields, but... how about when a change is in the works, float the idea in the forum first? Instead of "this is going to happen, here are the specifics and why we're doing it", something like "We're considering making this change; we'd appreciate some feedback and will take your concerns into consideration during the planning process." I know David says, "Your feedback is welcomed", but "welcomed" doesn't necessarily mean "we're going to pay attention to it".

    It gives the community a heads-up well ahead of the change, it lets people feel more involved in the evolution of the game (right now, this thread feels like half constructive feedback, and half pleading with the devs to do things differently), and it helps to mitigate the "father knows best" attitude that game developers tend to have. I get that it's their product, they're the ones being paid to make it better, but at the moment it feels a little like when Microsoft announce changes to Windows or Office - "You'll really love our changes, and if you don't, well... sucks to be you I guess, we're the industry standard!".

    This might possibly be the most sensible post in this thread. It certainly carries the most veracity.
  • CNash wrote:
    This is more of a comment on how changes are communicated than on the topic of changes to shields, but... how about when a change is in the works, float the idea in the forum first? Instead of "this is going to happen, here are the specifics and why we're doing it", something like "We're considering making this change; we'd appreciate some feedback and will take your concerns into consideration during the planning process." I know David says, "Your feedback is welcomed", but "welcomed" doesn't necessarily mean "we're going to pay attention to it".

    It gives the community a heads-up well ahead of the change, it lets people feel more involved in the evolution of the game (right now, this thread feels like half constructive feedback, and half pleading with the devs to do things differently), and it helps to mitigate the "father knows best" attitude that game developers tend to have. I get that it's their product, they're the ones being paid to make it better, but at the moment it feels a little like when Microsoft announce changes to Windows or Office - "You'll really love our changes, and if you don't, well... sucks to be you I guess, we're the industry standard!".

    This might possibly be the most sensible post in this thread. It certainly carries the most veracity.

    That's right we're the boss. It's our product. They should seek or superior knowledge before doing anything. We 1% represent the 99% of players who play differently from us. Just because the 99% is responsible for the real money that keeps the game going for the 1%, this does not mean you should try and do things for them that we don't like. We're the ones who complain about everything and are often wrong. If you don't listen to us you're a pudding brain.

    Full disclosure: I play games, I don't design them.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    simonsez wrote:
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    for once, this wasn't a late Friday afternoon news-dump
    Might as well have been. It's not like Hi-Fi has been around to address any of the reasons why this is an awful idea.
    I understand that people are upset, I am too, but taking it out on HiFi is the wrong approach. He's just the messenger, and he works for the publisher, not the devs who made this decision
  • over_clocked
    Options
    Whew, finally read the thread. Sorry if my suggestion is dumb for some very basic reasons. Here it is.
    Shields are very convenient to protect one's score and to allow for some life. That was their intended purpose after all.
    How about we don't nerf shields but the hopping instead? If one breaks shield in anything but the last 10 minutes of it, they are subject to a point decrease multiplier a la point refresh stacks in PvE. Moreover, the decrease periods should stack leading to less and less effective point gains. This way players can still use as many shields as they wish and break whenever they wish but they would just penalize themselves for attempting to get ahead through tons of shieldhops and people that more or less play normally (only shield when they have to go, run out of healthpacks, etc.) will be ahead instead since they will be getting normal point gains instead of +5 or +7 per hop.
    Of course having more versatile shields would help as well. Maybe change the 3 hr to 3-4, add a 5-6 hr shield, change the 8 hr to 8-10, add a 12-15 hr shield. Definitely needs more variety and will encourage better planning and not obsessing over scores (I would hope).
    Thoughts? Flames?

    Post-disclaimer: I do shieldhops but only out of necessity and not enjoyment. I hope there are other ways introduced to compete besides ranks and scores, new exciting modes, since excellent competitive players like reckless, Daveomite and many others I have come to know through the forums deserve to have a fun outlet for their desire to prove themselves in their favourite game and to knock themselves out if they wish so.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Spoit wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    for once, this wasn't a late Friday afternoon news-dump
    Might as well have been. It's not like Hi-Fi has been around to address any of the reasons why this is an awful idea.
    I understand that people are upset, I am too, but taking it out on HiFi is the wrong approach. He's just the messenger, and he works for the publisher, not the devs who made this decision

    I agree that we should not take our frustration out on HiFi, but the fact of the matter is he should be on the forum taking some Q and A as to why the changes are being made this particular way. This is part of his role and why his position was created. By having even a short Q and A to give more of an explanation would at least give the people on the forum an understanding as to what is going on. Even if we are 1% of the player base there should be a place players can go to get a better understanding as to why the Devs are changing the game in specific ways. More communication is always better. When ice or Dave are answering questions people on the forum are less abrasive, more willing to listen, and ask questions to get clarification. Without we get people lashing out in frustration because we don't agree with the way the Devs are changing the game and don't understand why they choose this particular way to change the game.

    D3 has come light years in the past 7 months with communication and that is great. There is still room to grow and I hope it happens soon.
  • over_clocked
    Options
    Realized that my suggestion doesn't account for people that are willing to plan their whole life around MPQ and shortest 3 hr shields, much like me when I grinded that 4or PvE without much sleep. It's not really a victory, is it? icon_e_smile.gif
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    locked wrote:
    Whew, finally read the thread. Sorry if my suggestion is dumb for some very basic reasons. Here it is.
    Shields are very convenient to protect one's score and to allow for some life. That was their intended purpose after all.
    How about we don't nerf shields but the hopping instead? If one breaks shield in anything but the last 10 minutes of it, they are subject to a point decrease multiplier a la point refresh stacks in PvE. Moreover, the decrease periods should stack leading to less and less effective point gains. This way players can still use as many shields as they wish and break whenever they wish but they would just penalize themselves for attempting to get ahead through tons of shieldhops and people that more or less play normally (only shield when they have to go, run out of healthpacks, etc.) will be ahead instead since they will be getting normal point gains instead of +5 or +7 per hop.
    Of course having more versatile shields would help as well. Maybe change the 3 hr to 3-4, add a 5-6 hr shield, change the 8 hr to 8-10, add a 12-15 hr shield. Definitely needs more variety and will encourage better planning and not obsessing over scores (I would hope).
    Thoughts? Flames?

    Post-disclaimer: I do shieldhops but only out of necessity and not enjoyment. I hope there are other ways introduced to compete besides ranks and scores, new exciting modes, since excellent competitive players like reckless, Daveomite and many others I have come to know through the forums deserve to have a fun outlet for their desire to prove themselves in their favourite game and to knock themselves out if they wish so.

    So I will look at this idea from the point of view that we want to stop extreme shield hopping and have scores be closer to the progression totals. If we penalize someone for breaking a shield early, let's say 15 points per match hoppers instead of generating 50 points per match per hop will get 35 unless they wait till their shield is about to expire, or fully expires. If people are only making 2 matches per hop you will bring scores down, but will not stop people from hopping and have people being PTW by just hopping more and out spending other players. Your idea will lower scores but will not really address the issue of PTW.
    I still think the best 2 options are set the number of shields a player can use in one PVP. It might be 3 it might be 5. This way players can only spend so much on shields to win.
    Number 2 option is to just put a short CD between shields. Once you break shield you cannot shield again for 15-20 min. No flipping between 8 he shield and 3 hr shield it is just you break shield and you cannot shield again for 15-20 min. Ideally this should be time you are playing. The issue with this option is at high scores if you are exposed for 10 min your team will get hit for more points than you win. This is where the Devs would have to put something in place to allow people to climb but not lose a mass of points at the same time.
    I will say I do shield hop as well, I might not hop to 1300 very often but I have. This is a tough issue to tackle for D3. It needs to be addressed but it seems that every idea is still wrong.
  • Unknown
    edited December 2014
    Options
    wymtime wrote:
    I agree that we should not take our frustration out on HiFi, but the fact of the matter is he should be on the forum taking some Q and A as to why the changes are being made this particular way. This is part of his role and why his position was created. By having even a short Q and A to give more of an explanation would at least give the people on the forum an understanding as to what is going on. Even if we are 1% of the player base there should be a place players can go to get a better understanding as to why the Devs are changing the game in specific ways. More communication is always better. When ice or Dave are answering questions people on the forum are less abrasive, more willing to listen, and ask questions to get clarification. Without we get people lashing out in frustration because we don't agree with the way the Devs are changing the game and don't understand why they choose this particular way to change the game.

    D3 has come light years in the past 7 months with communication and that is great. There is still room to grow and I hope it happens soon.
    When I first started reading the forums I also wondered why they were so bad at communicating. But I realized that pushing for increased communication is futile because it will only be surface level at best. We already see it in the PR-spun Q&As.

    They have very little incentive to be more transparent, because it will just make it easier for forumites to min-max and make it harder for them to "level the playing field." As evidenced by all the posts where people try to decipher rubberbanding, scaling, and sharding, passionate players will put in the effort to figure things out by themselves, with or without the devs explaining the exact details.

    As far as why the devs implement certain changes in the game, I feel this is obvious as well. They need $ to survive. Casuals form the largest pool of potential paying players. Thus, they strive to cater to casuals (to convert them) without alienating the established veterans. Balancing this dichotomy is not easy. I think many people do realize this. But it doesn't mean we won't call them out when they post changes like this one - which appears to benefit the 99% but actually will make things more difficult (unless they pair this change with additional ones that modify the ladder system).
  • reckless442
    reckless442 Posts: 532 Critical Contributor
    Options
    gobstopper wrote:
    As far as why the devs implement certain changes in the game, I feel this is obvious as well. They need $ to survive. Casuals form the largest pool of potential paying players. Thus, they strive to cater to casuals (to convert them) without alienating the established veterans. Balancing this dichotomy is not easy. I think many people do realize this. But it doesn't mean we won't call them out when they post changes like this one - which appears to benefit the 99% but actually will make things more difficult (unless they pair this change with additional ones that modify the ladder system).
    That may be true of their intent, but I am still failing to see how the benefits casual players. Maybe one in 100 will be able to get a better placement reward due to lucking out at not being hit during the likely craziness of the last few hours. But most casual players will still hit a 166 wall -- probably even lower than before because many 166s won't be able to climb out of the MMR bubble due to shield hopping -- and, as people have pointed out, they will provide more appetizing targets for the 166s than other 166s. I know in my First Avenger climb, when I was stuck in the 400s with only 20-23 pt matches, it wasn't the players with max-X-Force/Goddess I was choosing to hit for 23; it was the level 94s. Casual players also will not be likely to reach the progressions they currently reach; they benefit from higher scores which translate into higher targets.

    All I can figure is that the devs are concerned that casual players are discouraged when they see a bracket leader at 2000 when they are barely able to break 600. But I'm not sure they would be any less discourage by a bracket leader at 1000 when they are struggling to break 400, which is what they are likely to face after the shield nerf.
  • wymtime wrote:
    So I will look at this idea from the point of view that we want to stop extreme shield hopping and have scores be closer to the progression totals. If we penalize someone for breaking a shield early, let's say 15 points per match hoppers instead of generating 50 points per match per hop will get 35 unless they wait till their shield is about to expire, or fully expires. If people are only making 2 matches per hop you will bring scores down, but will not stop people from hopping and have people being PTW by just hopping more and out spending other players. Your idea will lower scores but will not really address the issue of PTW.
    I still think the best 2 options are set the number of shields a player can use in one PVP. It might be 3 it might be 5. This way players can only spend so much on shields to win.
    Why is P2W an issue for you? Yes, in games where paying gets you things that non-payers cannot get, P2W is a problem. If HP was a currency that could ONLY be gained through spending $, yes P2W would be a problem. However, in this game, given enough time, an F2P player can accomplish the exact same things as a paying player (see HailMary). Why should a player that spends $ on shields not have an advantage over a player who does not?
  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,609 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Does anyone remember the reasoning when sharding was first created? New players see leaders in their brackets at astronomical scores that they'll never be able to achieve; then they get discouraged and quit. This is the same thing. The forum applauds someone reaching 3000 for the first time, but 450 players in that bracket see the score and say, "I shouldn't even try for top 150."

    Not saying their plan is the best way forward. Just saying that I can see the reasoning for wanting to reduce crazy shield hopping.
  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    The main purpose of sharding was to ease the load on the servers, as it could split the load between multiple "shards". They took the opportunity to "gently nudge" newer players into separate shards from veteran players, I suppose to try to help even the playing field a little and prevent the issue that you bring up.
  • Another thing to think about...

    This isn't going to stop outside of game communication. It will simply increase.

    I have an idea that I'm mapping out to continue shield hopping, but will take pretty much most of the top alliances to communicate, and hops to be on large scale. This is totally possible, and, in my opinion, a nice way to say "nu Uh" to the devs trying to be our parents. Lol.

    Why on earth is one of the justifications "outside game communication" as if that's a bad thing.

    So, like oph, but bigger, and more permanent.
  • Accident-eLe
    Options
    If they want newer players to not be overwhelmed by high scores in top ten why don't they give us more ladder transparency. The 2* players are never making top 10 anyway regardless of hopping but would it be nice if they could see top 25 or 50 or even 100? Why do I have to be within ten spaces of a rank to know how many pts I need. Newer players would push harder for there brackets if they could see the differences were only 1 to 200 pts and not blankly guessing.
  • reckless442
    reckless442 Posts: 532 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Another thing to think about...

    This isn't going to stop outside of game communication. It will simply increase.

    I have an idea that I'm mapping out to continue shield hopping, but will take pretty much most of the top alliances to communicate, and hops to be on large scale. This is totally possible, and, in my opinion, a nice way to say "nu Uh" to the devs trying to be our parents. Lol.

    Why on earth is one of the justifications "outside game communication" as if that's a bad thing.

    So, like oph, but bigger, and more permanent.
    Related to that, outside communication will probably place more emphasis on sniping competitors. I've noticed with time-sharding in shards with fewer points that players have specifically requested help knocking down someone competing with them for placement rewards. In the past, players would mostly try to push to increase their own score because points were available. But with points at a premium, especially in the higher scoring range, the people at the top are targeted more by the entire pool so they can't hop as much and must instead try to knock down the guy fighting for that reward. I only see that increasing if this shield-nerf goes through because points will be even harder to come by.