Nefarious Foes - Matchmaking Test - Discussion

Unknown

stevenbrule wrote:

EDIT: MUCH better after tweak!

Hmmm. So far it was made horrible and afterwards improved to slightly bearable... I hope ppl can agree that what we had b4 NF was still better?

Unknown

_hiddles_ wrote:

stevenbrule wrote:

EDIT: MUCH better after tweak!

Hmmm. So far it was made horrible and afterwards improved to slightly bearable... I hope ppl can agree that what we had b4 NF was still better?

I do agree with this wholeheartedly. The tweak has improved things slightly but pre NF was ok in my opinion. Sure you hit a wall of 166 at around 600 points but that's why I levelled up my roster to get past that wall which is surely how progression in pvp should be.

Unknown

Ugh. Just ugh.

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

Okay, yes I do.

Why is this happening during a non-standard event?

Nefarious Foes is a weird-**** event. Doubled levels on non-standard characters. Not just half again, doubled. This turns a level 94 Ares into a monster close to the level of 270 XForce. It makes it exceedingly unclear what is a hard match and what should be a hard match. It makes it hard to evaluate skips (aside from the obvious Daken/Sentry/Hood malarky). Is that Juggernaut node dangerous? Well, okay, probably not, but you get the point. This is not your bog-standard PvP event. This is not even remotely comparable to your bog-standard PvP event. Normally I'd be running Patch or LThor to climb; now they're completely outclassed by some of my 2*s. The fact that this is the only subsequent opportunity to get covers for a new character after the character was released in Juggernaut Heroic, AKA "the worst PvE event in the game by a mile" is just adding insult to injury.


Secondly, rollout is everything.

When someone is queuing up Slobofix at 0 points, something's gone wrong. This is not to say that people should be immune from attacks; they shouldn't be. But what most of us saw at the start of this was the wall of 322s (and the occasional XForce) - something we usually don't run into until we've done our fair share of climbing. The way this game is set up, this makes sense - if every match was against enemies of the same level, climbing would be an incredible chore and take forever. We don't want that. Now, apparently it's sort of balancing out. But what's the impressions players took away from this? "D3 broke matchmaking even more than previously". Did you guys know this was going to happen? If you did, you should've warned us - said something along the lines of "we changed matchmaking; involved is a temporary reset on MMR. Matchmaking will be wonky for the first few minutes but it should balance out very quickly once you start playing". That would have made people say, "ah, okay, it'll get better", rather than "uninstalling this **** game".


Thirdly, Speaking of balancing out... Is it balancing out? Nobody can really tell! Nobody knows what's going on under the hood. There's no transparency. None of us have any idea how this new matchmaking system works. You know what I've noticed about most matchmaking systems? They tell you how they work! In DOTA, it's not just visible, it's your main tracker of "how good am I". In Street Fighter and Marvel vs. Capcom, your ranking is displayed publicly and you can either do matchmaking with anyone, or with just people around your rank. How does MMR work in MPQ? Nobody knows. Nobody has a damned clue. So how can we know if this will balance out? Some people are speculating that this new system is to make matchmaking more based on roster strength - if that's the case, I'm joining the large group of people saying "we're done". Give us transparency. What's actually going on here?


Lastly, if you didn't know this was going to happen, why not? Oh right. It's because you don't have a test server. At this point, for all we know, NorthernPolarity has better tools to test the game than you do! Look, how many times does this same thing have to happen before you guys decide, "Hmm, having a beta test server is worth considering"? It happened with true healing. It happened with the previous matchmaking change that instituted the "wall of 166". It happened with Beast, Doc Ock, Falcon, She-Hulk, and numerous others. It happened with Sentry, a character who breaks this game in the same way Ivan Ooze breaks the MMPR fighting game. You guys need to test these things. You need better community outreach but above all some decent playtesting. And you know what? I'm 99% sure that if you send out the call, you'll find guys willing to playtest betas for new mechanics or characters under an NDA for free. Certainly enough to make a decent test server. Why this hasn't happened is kind of beyond me, I'm not gonna lie. Why is your test case for a massive shift in how matchmaking is made to a game where matchmaking matters this much a non-standard event giving away rare covers for a brand new character? Why is this even happening on the main server to begin with when it should have been tested on, yanno, a test server! WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE FOR SOME REASON!


I'm not gonna judge this change yet. I haven't seen that much (although what I have seen is some turbo ****). But I will judge the way it was rolled out. This was a **** disaster, all of which could be avoided by following some basic good practices in design and even science. Christ, do you think you're gonna get good data for this change? Then you've failed at answering a question I was given in 3rd grade about experiment design - you never change more than one variable at a time.

Lystrata

Hrm. Will start by saying I didn't begin NF the moment it started, only after the announcement of another update - so I won't comment on the rage that took place before that update.

But playing it now, I can safely say... I have no idea what they've actually done? Nothing seems different to me, whatsoever. I didn't begin with any 'easy' seed teams, but I also didn't enter the moment it opened to cue them up. Otherwise, the teams I've been playing appear to be on-level enough? *shrug*
If it's of relevance, I'm a transitioning 2*-3* player, with a few 3*s, but nothing amazing like fully levelled Sentry/Hood/Daken or such.

Haven't gotten to 600 yet, so don't know if the changes are meant to affect that 166 wall you hit around 600-700 or not. Sooo... yeah. Nothing negative from me. Just a general bewilderment re: what's actually taking place.

Either way, I think it's good of them to start trying to deal with MMR - hopefully the onslaught of negative feedback won't just push them into a 'hell with it, we'll leave it as it was then' corner.


EDIT: And really, for everyone complaining they did this with a 'new character', if they'd put in an old 3* reward, the complaint would then be 'you're making all these changes and we're fighting harder than previously, just to get 3* Storm again?!'. Can't win, sometimes.

yogi_

Just scanned over sections of this thread.

Seems as though something they were trying had good intentions (where have we heard that before) but well.... thanks for trying.

***
Before we continue - beta testing a new feature and having a new character as a reward? Um... seriously...? There is really a disconnect here between theoretical stuck in an office game development and legit actually being at the end of it.

Also it was a poor choice of events, given the unusualness of the characters that are boosted and etc etc. Should have gone the most uninteresting, boring, normal PvP (so really almost anything else). But yes, it's mid season, you need to run something unusual and you wanted to push a test out. I get it, but again, like with so much of what you are doing (like True Healing, like TU's)... comes back to the disconnect between what you are trying to do and how you actually do it. Really... whatever short term execution and long term planning and design processes you run under need a complete overhaul - you have overarching game development planning and guides, yes? (or are we stuck with True Healing until we just give up playing).

***
Back on topic..

My intial seeds teams were not pretty at all, did one skip on each and still not pretty but not AS terrible.

Interesting to know what their aim was.

Was it to have a more genuine PvP experience where you get matched more at the start with people similar to you? In this case, almost any change would have interferred with progress as usual.

Maybe the change alone (excluding the difficulty was too high) was theoretically correct but could the rest of the structure need work?

I think an important test to be having, but agree with an earlier poster somewhere that it could have had a little more time internal testing (where have we heard that before). They really need to get some external people involved in some of this.

Unknown

Started as soon as the event opened up. Easy seed teams seemed to last longer than usual for me, up to 200+ points, at which point monster Ares showed up in every match. I'm a fairy new player, 4 max 2* lots of uncovered unleveled 3* with 142 Bp and 112 lazy Thor being my bigger 3*. At this point gains have stalled, can't even break 300 whereas I usually end up between 550-650. When I do manage to eke out a win it's costing me 2 hp between matches to remain competitive. I also seem to be being blasted by teams way above my level when on defense.

Unknown

I'm apparently having the opposite problem as everyone else.I have 4 maxed 2* (including ares), and 2 maxed 3*(including daken). Sitting at first in my bracket with 400 even. Started about an hour late, have seen mostly under leveled 2* teams plus a few mixed maxed 3* teams. Not seeing many nodes with more than 20 points, but the teams I am seeing would be crazy to retaliate my max laken, ares, thor/hulk team.

Unknown

mikeydollar7 wrote:

For me this takes away all sense of progression and fun (which was already long gone from PvE). PvP is not supposed to be a 50:50 game from zero points up - I recall D3 saying before that players wanted to have some easier fights then progress to more difficult in order to enjoy playing. Even more so if you have invested time and/or money to build your roster.

I probably classify as a whale (maybe a small one!) and this has pushed me to uninstall - until D3 confirm the experiment is failed and finished. I have no desire to be a guinea pig!

For those who don't know, Mikey is one of the leaders of the x-men. You know, those guys who take first and second in every single PvP, and probably collectively spend more on this game than the bottom 80% combined. If Mikey is talking, hopefully devs are listening.

Unknown

I seem to be having a different experience from most people.

My top 25 people (the varsity team) are right now all level 156 or 155. That includes every 3* and 4* except a handful, all of which (except for the newest 3) are at least level 152 (plus the the three who cap at 140). The 3 people I've used so far are Lazy Daken, CMags, and Hood. All are 156 boosted to 312. I didn't tank this time, since people were saying it didn't work, but I tank religiously and skipping a single one doesn't usually matter.

At the same time, I'm not very fond of PVP, and rarely go above 800 or so. This has clearly affected my sharding, and I'm getting significantly easier brackets than most people appear to. I usually finish in the mid-high teens with a score in the low 800s. Sometimes that will get me a top ten, and 900+ will almost always get me a top ten. This appears to mean I have lowish sharding for someone with my roster.

I"m seeing a huge mix of teams from all over the map. The majority are low-level, including several VERY low level. Aside from a handful of 336s, most of what I'm seeing is one or two people below 100 (boosted), and maybe a single 187 (boosted). There are tougher opponents mixed in there, but less than one in ten is comparable to my roster. Most are unmaxed 2* rosers, or 2* rosters with a maxed Ares or Moonstone as their only person above 100th level.

I started after 6 pm Eastern, so that may reflect the later mechanic at work. But if this is what it will be for me from here on, this will be the easiest PVP I've ever played.

Unknown

Maxed Hood, CMags, and Rags and I'm getting matched against enemies in the sub 100 range. Even some 1*s. This was true for about 6-7 matches so far.

Not sure what they did but it's certainly not working well.

For reference, I took 2 months off and have been pretty casual since I came back because I was hitting maxed 3* until this one. Also, I've been getting mostly light brackets since coming back. (with an occasional death bracket after doing too well on the previous one)

yogi_

jtvincible wrote:

mikeydollar7 wrote:

For me this takes away all sense of progression and fun (which was already long gone from PvE). PvP is not supposed to be a 50:50 game from zero points up - I recall D3 saying before that players wanted to have some easier fights then progress to more difficult in order to enjoy playing. Even more so if you have invested time and/or money to build your roster.

I probably classify as a whale (maybe a small one!) and this has pushed me to uninstall - until D3 confirm the experiment is failed and finished. I have no desire to be a guinea pig!

For those who don't know, Mikey is one of the leaders of the x-men. You know, those guys who take first and second in every single PvP, and probably collectively spend more on this game than the bottom 80% combined. If Mikey is talking, hopefully devs are listening.

Progression? First few hundred points, then some more, then shield, then Sentry, then shield, then Sentry, then shield and so on and repeat- maybe throw in a random other character to amuse yourself. Repeat every 3 days. I guess that is progression in a sense.

Fun? Well, maybe, if the above is fun, each to their own, I guess.

Calling PvP progression and fun in any genuine sense of the words surely is a stretch... I guess it's a matching tiles game and given the other option is grinding PvE, maybe it is.

This one change that they clearly labelled as an experiment made you uninstall? That's all it took? There are no other reasons you ragequit and uninstalled given you are in a top alliance and all? Clearly it would have happened eventually then anyway.

Unknown

Ghast wrote:

Riggy, the only mod still pretending to care wrote:

<Removing offensive image. Please read the forum rules>

I find the images in Jamie's post far more offensive than anything francky has put up thus far.

If it wasn't you, I'd down voted. There's only one thing more awesome and that better encapsulates the mpq spirit than crotch rainbows.... The great and all powerful T.S.P. Nothing that great has come or gone from MPQ than that legend. The game is worse off without his presence. He had to leave because the world was not ready for his greatness. If we're lucky (and don't go back to tiny kitty MMR) maybe he'll rise... Errrr.... Return again.

Unknown

_RiO_ wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Thanks everyone for this thread and your in-game testing and valuable feedback. We've been collecting a ton of data and we'll be sharing results of that data in the future.

In the last hour or so we made another change to the matchmaking system. If you could please continue to play and comment it would be helpful (you may need to skip through a half dozen opponents to see the "new" change more quickly).

Thanks!

While I appreciate the attempt at a hot-patch, an actual apology for this royal screwup would be more apprecated than continued droning on about (and over-reliance on) statistics that by now are uselessly skewed.
I might add that this kind of screweup by all rights should have revealed itself instantly given proper testing on a proper staging environment. I feel this is the case with many if not all critical issues we have been seeing with this game over the past year. I'm not saying this in anger, merely stressing it to get the point across.
Please, please: upgrade your development practices to catch this kind of thing early!!! There's only so much a game's community can take before it becomes totally toxic.

MPQ players play testing beta and non-beta for 13 months and going strong.

yogi_

stephen43084 wrote:

_RiO_ wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Thanks everyone for this thread and your in-game testing and valuable feedback. We've been collecting a ton of data and we'll be sharing results of that data in the future.

In the last hour or so we made another change to the matchmaking system. If you could please continue to play and comment it would be helpful (you may need to skip through a half dozen opponents to see the "new" change more quickly).

Thanks!

While I appreciate the attempt at a hot-patch, an actual apology for this royal screwup would be more apprecated than continued droning on about (and over-reliance on) statistics that by now are uselessly skewed.
I might add that this kind of screweup by all rights should have revealed itself instantly given proper testing on a proper staging environment. I feel this is the case with many if not all critical issues we have been seeing with this game over the past year. I'm not saying this in anger, merely stressing it to get the point across.
Please, please: upgrade your development practices to catch this kind of thing early!!! There's only so much a game's community can take before it becomes totally toxic.

MPQ players play testing beta and non-beta for 13 months and going strong.

Oh yeah, that's the post I was looking for earlier... Not so much the apology part but more connection between the development and the execution.

Unknown

Seems fine? Maybe it shafts people with maxed rosters but I'm getting a bunch of lvl 100 enemies which I can beat fairly easily. Lets see what things look like over 500.

LordWill

Let me say I've been following this and cannot believe some of the posts....

This is a test. They are TRYING to fix stuff that people have been whining about for months. It seems no matter what they do, people find a reason to complain.

They said this was a test, they have given everyone fair warning and asked for our help. They stated they could roll back the changes if need be and people are talking about quitting? Seriously?

They aren't going to be perfect but they have done a much better job of communicating and working on the game. Cut them some slack.

Furthermore the only way for them to test Matchmaking changes is to do something like this on a massive scale. Doing it on a small server with even 100 people wouldn't give them the information they need. Looking at what happens "in the real world" helps them to make "real world fixes".

Guys, they asked for our help. The least we can do is show them we care and help with feedback and constructive comments. We all want the game to be better.

Unknown

stephen43084 wrote:

_RiO_ wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Thanks everyone for this thread and your in-game testing and valuable feedback. We've been collecting a ton of data and we'll be sharing results of that data in the future.

In the last hour or so we made another change to the matchmaking system. If you could please continue to play and comment it would be helpful (you may need to skip through a half dozen opponents to see the "new" change more quickly).

Thanks!

While I appreciate the attempt at a hot-patch, an actual apology for this royal screwup would be more apprecated than continued droning on about (and over-reliance on) statistics that by now are uselessly skewed.
I might add that this kind of screweup by all rights should have revealed itself instantly given proper testing on a proper staging environment. I feel this is the case with many if not all critical issues we have been seeing with this game over the past year. I'm not saying this in anger, merely stressing it to get the point across.
Please, please: upgrade your development practices to catch this kind of thing early!!! There's only so much a game's community can take before it becomes totally toxic.

MPQ players play testing beta and non-beta for 13 months and going strong.

Hahah implying it isn't all beta.

Raffoon

Just got out of my seed teams. This is crazy. Nothing but max levels everywhere.

It looks to me like they decided to use the behind-the-scenes MMR to match people to a much higher degree than before. That means:
-Scores will be lower overall, since the max teams can't steamroll the 2 star teams for the first 600 easy points
-Lower level 2* teams have about as much chance to win first place as a team of full featured 4 stars. If they're only fighting people around their MMR and their MMR is low, then they will never see max level teams.

The biggest problem with that change is that rewards are still tied to how high you score.

While equality across rosters seems good at first, it completely takes away the RPG aspect of the game. This is the same problem that PVE faces so glaringly. Leveling up your character offers no advantage and so is completely meaningless. In a hypothetical, basic RPG game, say you go from doing 10 damage per hit to 20 damage per hit, but your opponent's health goes from 100 hp to 200 hp. You would see absolutely no difference in play experience. No power is actually gained.

I don't know about you, but I think the RPG part of this game is what really sets it apart and keeps me coming back. You level up characters and add them to your team. Maxing out a character and knowing that he or she will let you score higher because they're awesome feels GOOD. I'd bet it's the heart and soul of the reward portion of the game for a lot of people.

Another thing: Sometimes you just want to warm up by flicking a few tiles around. Maybe you don't want to spend every single game you play in a state where somewhere between 1-3 unlucky matches will spell certain doom.

Now there is one good side to this. Less low level people being ground to a pulp by max level teams on their way up the ladder. Here's an idea to help solve that issue instead of the current changes. Mix in some additional seed teams throughout all ranks. You can scale them so they're around the same level as a typical player at that rank. If the guy you're attacking has a 50% (or 30%, or whatever%) chance of just being a computer, then that's one less fellow's day that you've ruined on your climb up the ladder. That means we'd have more happy humans (They didn't get attacked. yay!) and less happy computers. (They got attacked. Oh no, they're so mad!) I don't know about, you but I'm on team human.

Unknown

Okay so these are my nodes.

http://i.imgur.com/9eYrUj2.png
http://i.imgur.com/KSJs5dE.png
http://i.imgur.com/ucLVBK9.png

I just skipped once in each.
How does that make any sense.

Carnage_78

LordWill wrote:

Let me say I've been following this and cannot believe some of the posts....

This is a test. They are TRYING to fix stuff that people have been whining about for months. It seems no matter what they do, people find a reason to complain.

They said this was a test, they have given everyone fair warning and asked for our help. They stated they could roll back the changes if need be and people are talking about quitting? Seriously?

My thoughts exactly!

Over-reaction much people...this is a trial & veterans are threatening to rage quit after just a few hours of one experimental PvP event in the off season...keep it cool folks!

We are all at different stages of building a roster with our time & efforts...it is not always ideal or easy by any means at any level of the game (just different obstacles to go over)...but it would not be worth playing if it was too easy either...so don't throw everything away in a fit of frustration for a few hours of struggles with the game.

Just play through the beta testing to see how it balances out over the entire event instead of raging right away at the beginning...

They do want the community comments but if there is nothing constructive being brought forward by us all then it won't help them much. Objective points either positive or negative is potentially helpful to figure out what is going well & wrong...but enflamed comments that are purely emotional will not do much other than venting your frustration on a forum and will not help them solve anything.

Keep in mind that this a fun game...and that we are lucky that the developers are actually listening to us by trying to fix an issue that as been bugging a lot of people for a long time.

Deep breaths my fellow MPQ players...I will be out there with you all trying to improve my ranking...what ever the game throws at me!