Cancel the Heroic Juggernaut

yogi_

"David wrote:

Moore"]I brought this up to the developers today in our daily conversation and they were already aware of the sentiments being expressed regarding Heroic Juggernaut. So, the feedback is being heard. Two things were expressed. Firstly, please do continue letting us know what you don't like about these types of Heroics. The opinions and suggestions are being taken into consideration so that we can improve moving forward. Secondly, you'll see less of this type of Event as the new PVE content is added to the game.

I know! Let me stop you right there - the new PVE content has been long-in-arriving - but I can reassure you once again that it is in development and will be added in the near future.

Hope that helps a bit. Thanks!

(Re-posting here from viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18585)

P.S. It's simply too late at this stage to cancel, test and implement a replacement Event.

Kudos to you David - an informative, realistic, simple and clear response. Nicely done.

NotYou13

To add to Ben's list of issues, because this event is just a constant 3+ day grind of the same nodes over and over, we repeatedly get the good old middle finger reward of 20 for getting lucky and beating a level 300+ Juggernaut. That's not ok.

Unknown

"David wrote:

Moore"]

I brought this up to the developers today in our daily conversation and they were already aware of the sentiments being expressed regarding Heroic Juggernaut.

Sooooooo... Does that mean the devs actually read the forums themselves? Or is it that they also dislike the format from their own play testing? Or does this mean they've already known about it from previous runnings of jugg heroic and chose not to do anything about it? Granted they probably have other priorities on their plate but it wouldn't hurt to tweak the synergies of the restricted characters once in a while so I have at least a chance of not eating HP like crazy and multiple head butts in the face from the get go.

Spoit

NorthernPolarity wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]

Ben Grimm wrote:

Seriously - everybody hates these, and that heroic is just flat-out terrible. Stop introducing new characters in heroics. There is still time to change up the event. If you want to put in Mystique in a new PVE starting tomorrow, change it to a non-heroic. We're begging you. Heroic Juggernaut is a terrible event. Just awful. The player base has made it clear how much they hate this. Just don't do it.

I brought this up to the developers today in our daily conversation and they were already aware of the sentiments being expressed regarding Heroic Juggernaut. So, the feedback is being heard. Two things were expressed. Firstly, please do continue letting us know what you don't like about these types of Heroics. The opinions and suggestions are being taken into consideration so that we can improve moving forward. Secondly, you'll see less of this type of Event as the new PVE content is added to the game.

I know! Let me stop you right there - the new PVE content has been long-in-arriving - but I can reassure you once again that it is in development and will be added in the near future.

Hope that helps a bit. Thanks!

(Re-posting here from viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18585)

P.S. It's simply too late at this stage to cancel, test and implement a replacement Event.

I think the main beef with Juggernaut specifically is that there are 0 sub events. The other heroics are more bearable since the sub events tend to make people think that their grinding each day is worthwhile since they can get sub awards at least. With juggs, 4 days of grinding the exact same nodes that deplete themselves of rewards after the first day and 0 sub rewards is terrible.

Also, since it's only 1 map, there's no scaling resets to keep it from getting out of hand, so the scaling also gets out of hand

mjh

papa07 wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Firstly, please do continue letting us know what you don't like about these types of Heroics. The opinions and suggestions are being taken into consideration so that we can improve moving forward.

The introduction of a new character.

The lack of any synergies amongst the Heroic team.

The lack of earnable Hero Points.

The lack of Sub-Events.

The need to play during the last hour to stay in the top-150, no matter when you join or how much you play.

If you join before Sunday, the perpetual Iso-20 prizes.

The repetitive opponents.

That's the top of my head list.

All of this plus the ridiculous scaling that leads to lvl200+ Juggernaut. FFS he sucks

Unknown

Even though it's too late to change the event, an easy* fix might be to relax the award tiers. Top 20 for 2 covers is especially rough for this one.

*I don't know how easy it is in practice, but they have done it before when a PVE had technical issues.

fight4thedream

NorthernPolarity wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]

Ben Grimm wrote:

Seriously - everybody hates these, and that heroic is just flat-out terrible. Stop introducing new characters in heroics. There is still time to change up the event. If you want to put in Mystique in a new PVE starting tomorrow, change it to a non-heroic. We're begging you. Heroic Juggernaut is a terrible event. Just awful. The player base has made it clear how much they hate this. Just don't do it.

I brought this up to the developers today in our daily conversation and they were already aware of the sentiments being expressed regarding Heroic Juggernaut. So, the feedback is being heard. Two things were expressed. Firstly, please do continue letting us know what you don't like about these types of Heroics. The opinions and suggestions are being taken into consideration so that we can improve moving forward. Secondly, you'll see less of this type of Event as the new PVE content is added to the game.

I know! Let me stop you right there - the new PVE content has been long-in-arriving - but I can reassure you once again that it is in development and will be added in the near future.

Hope that helps a bit. Thanks!

(Re-posting here from viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18585)

P.S. It's simply too late at this stage to cancel, test and implement a replacement Event.

I think the main beef with Juggernaut specifically is that there are 0 sub events. The other heroics are more bearable since the sub events tend to make people think that their grinding each day is worthwhile since they can get sub awards at least. With juggs, 4 days of grinding the exact same nodes that deplete themselves of rewards after the first day and 0 sub rewards is terrible.

*emphasis mine

Just waned to point out that NorthernPolarity used the word "bearable" and not "fun". My problem with Heroics is they smack of laziness; they are basically prologue chapters being rehashed with the only changes being a rise in difficulty scaling and a limited roster. Besides the new character, content-wise there is nothing new. As has been mentioned, it will be strange running through this event without Thor since he is a big part of the storyline.

i know there are those that don't mind the challenge as long as the rewards are good, but from a creative standpoint the devs can and have done much better than this. i am of the opinion that Heroics should be phased out of the game as soon as possible.

There needs to be a better balance between new characters and new modes, stories and game content. As i'm sure you have noticed, a lot of people have been complaining about the pace at which new characters are being released.

i understand that the devs have a lot on their plate and appreciate their hard work. but if their goal is to make the game more fun (instead of more bearable) i think it would be wise for them to give as much priority to new events and game modes as they do to making new characters.

Some friendly suggestions:
*Guerrilla events: random unannounced events that last about an hour or so that reward Iso, HP, or one 3* cover/*3 token (preferably non-competitive)
*seasonal events: one time of the year type events that follows a theme related to the holiday it falls on. Doesn't have to be too fancy, more like a small treat for the player base
* Quest mode: A non-competitive uber-long story mode that progresses in difficulty until the final boss.

I have a lot more suggestions that can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=15997

Anyway, thanks for your hard work. Blade is an awesome new addition to the game and it's looking like Mystique will be interesting to play with, too.ﾞ☆⌒o(*^ｰﾟ)v

Unknown

At the risk of being the most hated person on the forums, I'd just like to express that I actually like Heroics.

I feel like it rewards diverse rosters, and with restricted rosters, in my personal experience the points totals don't go as high.
Thus, I guess I like them because I feel like they are more relaxing than PVE's where you have to grind two branches at once.

That being said, I agree with NorthernPolarity that if there is anything negative to be said about Heroic Juggs, it's the lack of subs.

I think subs really help in feeling rewarded for efforts. Just my two cents.

Unknown

NotYou13 wrote:

To add to Ben's list of issues, because this event is just a constant 3+ day grind of the same nodes over and over, we repeatedly get the good old middle finger reward of 20 for getting lucky and beating a level 300+ Juggernaut. That's not ok.

Well, there might be a beating incoming, but i will risk it...

There is nobody forcing you to constantly grind nodes for 20 iso reward with a lvl 300+ headbutt incoming. It is your decision, whether you play that or not.

I've chosen, that PvP is way more fun, than fighting all the same, basically 3, nodes over and over again, getting a nice headbutt every other turn and facing tons of goons without any counter for their CD tiles or any means for draining their AP generation. Getting a Headbutt on the second! AI-turn of a match is somehow awkward and i gratefully make room for those, who want that

I will get mystique then in PvP, even if it means i have to wait one more week...

Unknown

I also actually just realized that with playing all day I was only able to score about 12k points. Most of the bracket reports in the other thread also reported leaders with around the same which is why I came to the forums - to check why I felt so behind the top tier progression reward.

It was bad enough to see that Ms. Marvel is in the place of the lower tier progression cover which is normally a 3* but with 3 days left, that 55k to get the BP cover is looking pretty unrealistic for most players without spending HP on health packs. Especially with getting head butted to death constantly and the point potential going down as the levels go up in the NPCs.

This event is just poorly designed top to bottom and I think I'm just gonna quit playing it now.

Unknown

I love this game, but this PVE is an unbearable grind off the masochism meter. I'm gonna take a hint from Joshua from the classic movie Wargames "The only way to win is not to play" and sit this one out. I'll have to have my date with Mystique another day. Hats off to anyone who grinds this for the next 2.8 days -- you're a harder core masochist than I am.

Unknown

I plan on hitting the nodes once, maybe twice a day a most. Probably more in the last few hours unless I have work. We'll see if rubberbanding puts me in the top 150. If not, I agree that my happiness is worth more than Mystique.

reckless442

+! to the comments here.

I haven't finished my first clear and already am seeing level 200s. I didn't even finish Gauntlet because of scaling and I'm starting out at this level, which makes getting Mystique pretty impossible. Every battle is finishing with one character dead and usually another very low on HP because: (1) Photon Blast, Chemical Reaction, and Headbutt are all cheap, high-damage powers; (2) the only two particularly good offensive powers are Rage of the Panther (12 AP) and Sniper Rifle (19 AP), so they take a long time to get enough AP to use; (3) Bullseye protect tiles render match damage fairly meaningless when he is level 200; and (4) Daken strike tiles deplete health rapidly. Meanwhile, you have the problem that Colossus and Black Panther overlap on 2 of 3 colors and taking out countdown tiles is particularly difficult when you cannot place any tiles, OBW's countdown delay power is unavailable, and you're pretty much stuck relying on GSBW's or MN Mags' purple and a lot of lucky board placement to create 4- and 5-tile matches that will take out countdowns.

I only joined this PVE two hours ago, and I'm already ready to quit.

Square

The bad guys are really strong already, but the heroes I have to choose from are all way too weak. BP is the only strong one. A slightly better selection of playable would be better.

I lost an 'easy' match without making a dent on the opposing side. Really? Can it really be called easy in that case?

Oldboy

"David wrote:

Moore"]

Ben Grimm wrote:

Seriously - everybody hates these, and that heroic is just flat-out terrible. Stop introducing new characters in heroics. There is still time to change up the event. If you want to put in Mystique in a new PVE starting tomorrow, change it to a non-heroic. We're begging you. Heroic Juggernaut is a terrible event. Just awful. The player base has made it clear how much they hate this. Just don't do it.

I brought this up to the developers today in our daily conversation and they were already aware of the sentiments being expressed regarding Heroic Juggernaut. So, the feedback is being heard. Two things were expressed. Firstly, please do continue letting us know what you don't like about these types of Heroics. The opinions and suggestions are being taken into consideration so that we can improve moving forward. Secondly, you'll see less of this type of Event as the new PVE content is added to the game.

I know! Let me stop you right there - the new PVE content has been long-in-arriving - but I can reassure you once again that it is in development and will be added in the near future.

Hope that helps a bit. Thanks!

(Re-posting here from viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18585)

P.S. It's simply too late at this stage to cancel, test and implement a replacement Event.

Initially i was like "Yay! The devs do listen!"

And then i realised something (admittedly this also comes on the heels of *another* bad match with crash+cascades+headbutt (repeat))

What the tinykitty do you mean to keep letting the devs know what we dont like about this event? If the devs have been reading the forum and are "aware" then they should already know what most have been complaining about.

Seriously, do the devs even play the game from our perspective? Do they really enjoy fighting over-levelled Juggernaut being fed red and green by his goons (or any other character + goon) ? And getting 2 round heals (morale boosts) which is the equivalent of true healing for the AI.

Do they really enjoy the mindless grind against Juggernaut with limited boosted heroes and receive limited underwhelming rewards? And getting tinykittied every match with ridiculous cascades from his crash which leads to headbutt? How does he taking minimal damage from headbutt actually balance his powers? For a player, we either use a health pack or have to wait for him to heal. For the AI, they get healed immediately in the next match.

Enough has been said on the forums about the sheer aggravation that is Juggernaut/Venom Heroics and how we'd prefer the other pve events. Do we really need to keep telling you what we dont like about the Heroics?

yogi_

Oldboy wrote:

Seriously, do the devs even play the game from our perspective?

Pretty much not. They just make the game, they don't actually have to play it from the end user perspective.

This is not always a bad thing, IF...

You are reasonably empathetic / able to see things from multiple perspectives and then be brave enough to act on the things you encounter - it's where a lot of the disconnect between us and them comes from. If it doesn't affect ME directly and I don't HAVE to care, well... then... I can kinda do what I want. A lot of messed up stuff in the world comes from this sort of way of approaching things (and no, not equating legitimate world problems with a computer game - though the theory is broadly similar in almost any area of life).

If some of these conditions were fulfilled, primarily by the people who are in charge, a lot of (even small-medium) long asked for changes would have taken place both long ago and on a regular basis.

Oldboy wrote:

Do they really enjoy fighting over-levelled Juggernaut being fed red and green by his goons (or any other character + goon) ?

This implies they actually partake in activity in the first place.

Oldboy wrote:

And getting 2 round heals (morale boosts) which is the equivalent of true healing for the AI.

They know... but... well... it's just how these things are.

Oldboy wrote:

Do they really enjoy the mindless grind against Juggernaut with limited boosted heroes and receive limited underwhelming rewards? And getting tinykittied every match with ridiculous cascades from his crash which leads to headbutt? How does he taking minimal damage from headbutt actually balance his powers? For a player, we either use a health pack or have to wait for him to heal. For the AI, they get healed immediately in the next match.

Not applicable. They don't actually have to play it endlessly for 3 days - they just bring it out of the event cupboard every now and again, dust it off with a few characters that they need to test in some way or another and voila!

Oldboy wrote:

Enough has been said on the forums about the sheer aggravation that is Juggernaut/Venom Heroics and how we'd prefer the other pve events. Do we really need to keep telling you what we dont like about the Heroics?

Remember... new and shiny = good; once it's live, well, hey did you see the first part of the answer???

Dartmaster01

They could just cut it off in the middle and I would be OK with it. Booooooooo Heroics........Boo!

Unknown

Wow, this heroic is brutal. Just used nearly all my healthpacks on one pass of essential nodes due to the lack of AP stealers and anti-countdown options.

Still, all I can hope is that it's pretty much as brutal for everyone.

God knows what this is going to look like by Sunday.

Unknown

Meutrich wrote:

There is nobody forcing you to constantly grind nodes for 20 iso reward with a lvl 300+ headbutt incoming. It is your decision, whether you play that or not.

I've chosen, that PvP is way more fun, than fighting all the same, basically 3, nodes over and over again, getting a nice headbutt every other turn and facing tons of goons without any counter for their CD tiles or any means for draining their AP generation. Getting a Headbutt on the second! AI-turn of a match is somehow awkward and i gratefully make room for those, who want that

While I don't pretend to speak for the others, I'm in the precarious situation where I'm in the midst of the 2*->3* transition, and I don't have a strong enough team to guarantee a top 100 win in PVP, but I don't have a diverse and strong enough roster to compete in most Heroic events. I'm lucky enough this time to have most of the available characters, but they are all woefully underleveled, and I have a few strong 3*, which will have a negative effect on my scaling. On top of all that, with the "CYO Event End Times" not yet underway, and no guarantee that it will be held on a weekend, I don't even know if I can compete in the PVP, which means this is my only chance to compete for Mystique's covers before the next PVE event that will surely require her for certain nodes.

I'm not looking for a handout, or even to make it easier for me. I'm just expressing why I particularly dislike Heroic events, and why the PVP route is not necessarily the best option for me.

As for fixes to the Heroics, probably the only thing that I would really like to see is the scaling set, not to entire rosters, but available rosters. I have a 144 Patch (3/4/5) and a 130 Sentry (3/5/4), but if I can't use them, and instead have to use my 76 GSBW (3/3/5) and 45 BP (2/2/1), I shouldn't be fighting enemies scaled to take on my Patch & Sentry. Either scale appropriately, or allow me to use my full roster.

mags1587

Heroics aren't all bad. I do like the challenge of working with a limited roster. What I don't like is when new characters are introduced in heroics. I don't think that new characters should be introduced in PvEs with a limited roster. And Heroic Juggernaut is one of the worst heroics because, as people have said, there are no subs, so it's just a complete grind from the time you start.