Use of sensitive symbols in MPQ - 'Colossus'

Unknown

Well, unless you want to point out to Marvel that they are wrong about it, I do not think your theory holds water. It simply contradicts too much of the background stories.


While our time passes, it definately doesn't pass the same way in the multiple Marvel universa. Colossus backstories do clearly place him in a Soviet farming collective.


I am actually a bit upset about this now, the fact is that Colossus was described as the kinda guy who was genuinely good, and you wanted to be around. He was a positive idol showing the spirit of mankind. But him being a Soviet citizen and a comrade is too much for people.

Unknown

Can't we all just get along?

It's a match-3 game... No place for politics here.

This game is my escape from political banter and offended persons (America is FULL of people looking for a reason to be offended).

Play or don't. It's pretty simple. Nobody has to use a certain character if they don't want to. While I understand having a problem with a certain person or time, a symbol is a symbol.

If a television show or radio broadcast is sending a message I cannot live with, I simply do something else. Cruisading to change something trivial as a match 3 game symbol sounds exhausting.

Also, I have yet to see an international, well, anything, make everyone happy.

Just relax. Don't forget to have fun. It's kind of the point of playing a game, after all.

GuntherBlobel

Jameson2014 wrote:

Can't we all just get along?

We're trying.

I'm glad this thread is here. I've learned a lot. The OP has learned a lot. There were lots of different perspective shared here, including several people more connected to the USSR than I may ever be.

If this thread had somehow appeared before the introduction of Colossus, I don't think they would have used the H&S. I don't say that because they would have taken some side for or against the USSR. I say that because no one wants to offend or hurt someone over such a silly thing as a tile icon. They may have learned something in this thread that they didn't know already and may have choosen a different path. I guarantee they are thinking more deeply about it now.

As you said, "it's a Match-3 game." If there's a way to offend fewer people with a silly game, why wouldn't you do it?

(The discussion is here on the game Forum, btw. Not the actual game. The match-3 game is still a good place to escape).

Edit -- I changed a few things that could have been clearer.

Unknown

That's true.

It's also true of things like Christmas trees, the Star of David, or any symbol. Someone somewhere is not going to like it.

The point is, to not let it bother you. History sucks for many for many different reasons. Oppressive regimes will always put a bad spin on an otherwise harmless artifact. The only thing that gives it an offensive power after the fact is the observer.

Letting something of that nature bother you allows your oppressor to win, even if they are long perished.

Pylgrim

rowaasr13 wrote:

This is not about communism at all. H&S is 80 years of our history that had much more good than bad. Trying to say otherwise you're personally spitting on people and their ancestors who happily lived here.

That was my whole point, you know. The symbol is historically charged with history. It represents something to propaganda-eating ignorant americans, another thing to propaganda-eating proud soviets (you conveniently didn't mention the massive soviet propaganda machine), and another thing to people from the ex-annexed territories that even today feel the repercussions of the soviet rule. We are not going to find out in this thread who's right or wrong (the answer is most likely "everybody and nobody") but we should agree that symbols carrying this much meaning should just not be used wily nily like this.

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

That was my whole point, you know. The symbol is historically charged with history. It represents something to propaganda-eating ignorant americans, another thing to propaganda-eating proud soviets (you conveniently didn't mention the massive soviet propaganda machine), and another thing to people from the ex-annexed territories that even today feel the repercussions of the soviet rule. We are not going to find out in this thread who's right or wrong (the answer is most likely "everybody and nobody") but we should agree that symbols carrying this much meaning should just not be used wily nily like this.

Amen

Unknown

Oh my globe, where should I start?

First, nowdays there are nations that officially have Communistic political parties. The people of those nations vote for them believing in their patriotism and their strife to do good for their nations. So the mere existance of the topic about removing the symbol of Communism, "evil commies" and commie=nazi parallels - it instantly insults the political beliefs of all those people. Apparently some people feel insulted if they don't insult other people.

Second, I am really glad that so many want to keep discussion of this matter calm and civil. Unfortunately, it all ends since Putin is mentioned. Why? Because:
a) Putin was not a political figure of USSR;
b) Putin is not a Communist. Putin belongs to United Russia political party. The Communistic party is on opposition of UR party. Putin is as close to anti-Communist as you can get.
So if Putin have no conection to this topic, why was he mentioned? Is there any reason to mention him but to insult Russia? Not USSR, not Communists - current Russia and her people? If there is one, I can't see it. Similar, any mention of genosite, evil Russians, USA nuking Japan can only be made to promote international hatred

Third, "evil Russkie" is a common trope in fiction. When the writers want villains and feeling lazy, they make evil Russian commie Ivan in ushanka, with balalaika, eating pirojki, drinking vodka, hunting bears. No matter how do you feel about this in fiction, brining this to real life is just plain wrong. If you relly think all Russkie are evil people dreaming of world domination, you should see a doctor.

Let's make one step forward. Imagine a fictional videogame that has villains with Russian/communist symbolic. Who is first to be offended by that? Russians, because they are portreted as villains. What about other people. Let me tell you that the creators of Doom was good Catolics. When asked "How could you put demons in your game?" they replied: "They are bad guys. We kill them."

However, Colosus is a different case. He is a hero. He is a good commie: hammer, sickle, star. An now we have people saying: we don't accept him as a hero, unless you remove his H&S. But doing this is against what Colosus stands for. It's an insult to Colosus's character and to role his creators gave him.

Let's conclude: that's a lot of insults. TC is insulted, commies are insulted, Russians are insulted, even Colosus himself is insulted. D3 need to do something about it, right? D3 doesn't want people to feel insulted. So what do they do? They remove H&S. is that a good decision? Well... they pleased one group of people, but insult other group of people. Choosing to insult other guys is still an insult!

But wait! What could D3 possibly done if whatever they do they going to insult people anyway? Was there a better solution? There was. And there was a hint of it in this topic: this is match 3 game. Not political debates. There should be no place for political discussions and there is a reason discussing politics is forbiden on some unrelated forums. And D3 should had do the same: forbid politics, close the topic. Block those that insist on continueing insult war. That way D3 would save face. And if they decided to change Colosus's simbol afterwards, they could just say that they found H&S unsuited for Colosus. Or something. But that was not what they did. Instead they choose to side with one political group of people against another political group of people. They decided to promote international hatred.

And so this topic still does, now with official approval of D3. Are you still glad this topic exist?

GuntherBlobel

Kaze Koichi wrote:

Are you still glad this topic exist?

I am still glad it this thread exists, but perhaps it is now time to lock it as you suggest; particularly, since Demiurge has informed us of their decision. Unfortunately, the tone of the thread since does seem to be getting less and less civil.

marx2299

I can certainly appreciate your concern. However, as an American, I would be even MORE concerned if they did censor it. Yes, the hammer and sickle are mostly understood as symbols of Russian/Soviet aggression. However, let's not forget its original meaning: these are the tools of the worker and the common folk, hence, totally acceptable for a "farmer" like Colossus. To compare the hammer and sickle to the Nazi Swastika is absurd and disrespectful. The Nazi flag represented the ideology of Nazi lunatics and not the German people as a whole. The Soviet soldiers who fought and died under the banner of the hammer and sickle FIGHTING Nazi oppression FAR OUTNUMBER those who died fighting on the side of the Western powers. Let's show a little respect for their sacrifice. As for those of you advocating using a different symbol, you might as well go ahead and design a new costume too. Notice the red and yellow? Those are the colors of the Soviet flag. The fact of the matter is that Piotr Nikolaievitch Rasputin was/is a Soviet citizen, he should be represented as such. If they made a video game about the American Civil War I am sure that many of you wouldn't appreciate them omitting the Confederate flag. We can't ignore facts of history just because they make us uncomfortable...

P.S. The map is misleading as China WILLFULLY submitted to communism since they had a revolution and are communist to this day. They also had a fractured diplomatic relationship with the Soviet Union and should not be depicted as their allies or their puppets...

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

Malcoran wrote:

Well, if we are thinking this way you can add practically broking England and France alliances with Poland (declaring war and sitting in trenches instead military help) or Yalta conference, where Churchill and Roosevelt "gave" Poland with few other countries to Russia. Hell, dont forget bout Poland taking Zaolzie!

Yes, that's kinda my point. The Allied powers were hardly in it for the altruism, and were ruthlessly pragmatic before, during, and after the war. It's easy to find very bad things that the "good guys" did in WWII (and getting progressively easier that the hero worship fades over time), so I'll agree that no major power was "good" in WWII... but you're not saying that at all, not even remotely. You're condemning Russia specifically for cooperating and making deals with Nazi Germany, something that several other countries did rather eagerly in the run-up to World War II. Around 10 million Russian soldiers died fighting the Axis -- more than 20 times the military casualties of any other single Allied power with the exception of China, but that curiously doesn't factor into your moral calculus.

Malcoran wrote:

But do you seriously think you can compare all countries and put everyone in same basket? Cause for me its pretty exaggerating.

Yeah, I'll definitely take tips on "exaggerating" from the guy calling other people "insane." Even if your strawman was in any way accurate, it'd still be a bit more useful than patting oneself on the back for simply labeling certain things "pure evil" -- certain things that, again, happened on both sides.

i didnt call you insane, it was clearly about your statement, not about you. And "specifically" youre missing part of my posts when I said about SU being agressor etc. First time Im hearing that other countries were doing genocide and crimes against humanity besides Germany and SU. So Im waiting for your sources about this.

Dauthi

eris-wtga wrote:

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The intention to eradicate inherited disorders can end with a lovely eugenics program with things like forced sterilization. Good intentions should not & cannot excuse the evil the USSR perpetuated...the USSR did some pretty nasty stuff (including its own attempt at genocide), and its effect is still being felt (as Putin thinks he can go into the Ukraine and take a chunk of it, and the world does very little about it. We should all count our lucky stars that the Ukraine gave up their nukes)... & the difference between the us &the USSR is that the US is still around and can try and do better (yeh yeh I know what a mess they are right now, but I hold out hope they will do better. call me an optimist)...


And what is more, it isn't a defining characteristics of colossus, he could be everything he is if he came from France or Russia. There is no need to link him with the hammer & sickle (and besides would work a lot better for omega red)

Ukrain? *cough* IRAQ *cough*. Countries make a lot of bad decisions, but the winners force history to look the other way.

HailMary

Malcoran wrote:

i didnt call you insane, it was clearly about your statement, not about you.

I see.

Malcoran wrote:

And "specifically" youre missing part of my posts when I said about SU being agressor etc.

Yes, I may indeed be missing the insane "etc." part. Thank you for clarifying about that. As for being the aggressor, of course that's a major point of consideration, but that in no way means Allied powers were immune from widespread depravity. I'm not saying "The Soviet Union was wonderful." I'm saying that the Soviet Union was terrible in a lot of ways, but drawing a line in the sand that makes them one of the bad guys (presumably in contrast to the other Allied powers) isn't as simple as you're making it seem. How do you measure Chechen democide/genocide against the deaths of fully 1/3 of all Soviet men between ages 20 to 49, approximately half of whom died fighting the Axis? Do we simply ignore the latter? Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security Council. Clearly, the moral calculus is more complex than "well, they were an aggressor at first, and they committed genocide, so f--- 'em."

Malcoran wrote:

First time Im hearing that other countries were doing genocide and crimes against humanity besides Germany and SU. So Im waiting for your sources about this.

Generously ignoring the fact that you overlooked the Japanese (hopefully just a momentary lapse, and not actual total ignorance), start here: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Allied_war_c ... ed_Kingdom (copious sourcing can be found in the linked footnotes, and I even skipped the SU part for you).

Wolarsen

In any case, good job from D3 on listening, taking a decision and informing really fast on the same forum that started a discussion.
Gogo David, Icex and D3.

Unknown

About H&S being "not appropriate" for Colossus. It seems other Marvel game makers don't quite agree:

Unknown

Wolarsen wrote:

In any case, good job from D3 on listening, taking a decision and informing really fast on the same forum that started a discussion.
Gogo David, Icex and D3.

Sorry, you call political censorship that guaranteed to piss off many Russian players a "good job"?

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

If it bothers you that much, there's the door.

Why don't we say this to OP and rest of Russia-haters instead?

Wolarsen

To: rowaasr13
"IN ANY CASE, good job from D3 on LISTENING, TAKING A DECISION and INFORMING REALLY FAST on the same forum that started a discussion.
Gogo David, Icex and D3."

Much better, imo, than letting the issue linger saying "we acknowledge". Had they decided to keep the symbol, I would have congratulated them the same.

On the other layer of discussion: even if this issue started from political sensivity, I recommended in this thread the change of symbol due to Marvel comics lore (at least up to year 2000, more or less, i almost stopped following mutant comics by then; correct me if he goes activist later, in cartoons or in the movies). Colossus clearly sympathyzed with USSR politics and used to show doubts on returning home and put his powers at the service of his homecountry, or staying with the X-men; but he never returned to Russia, at least in the main plots (i think he did in some short and fill-in stories), thinking that he was doing greater good with his partners. So USSR symbols do not represent him properly. I do not know what other Marvel franchisers do or have done; sometimes a chain of developers are hired, with some links having no idea at all on the characters they are using; I find the card you show cheap, due to my reasons on this paragraph.

I can give you another good example very, very close to Colossus: Kitty Pride (Sprite/Ariel/Shadowcat). She is clearly a jewish character, wears and shows David's star permanently, and is depicted following several jewish traditions. But representing her ingame with that 6-point star would be a very, very poor choice, in my opinion.

You have been battling with others on a political level (or other have been battling you!); please notice there is no politics at all on my reasoning, and in fact there is also no political explanation on D3 announcement of the replacement:

by David [Hi-Fi] Moore » Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:21 am
Hello everyone,
I wanted to give you another update regarding the in-game symbol for Colossus.
After much discussion, we have decided to change and replace the current symbol to something that better represents this epic hero. We do not yet have a firm date for when the change will occur, but we hope to have the new symbol in-game within the next few weeks.
Thank you for your patience as we work to implement the change.

From my position (I am a 40ish spanish), I do not see reasons for any russian player to be pissed off for the symbol swap. Maybe you can get pissed by some comments of forumites in this thread, but that's a sepparated issue.

Cheers!

Unknown

Let me clearly restate the reason, if 9 pages is not enough to catch up (despite several other Western people already saying that they do understand this and clearly demonstrating with their post that they get it too):
Some random guy taught from childhood that "Evil Soviets is the biggest problem for your country": Evil Soviets is the biggest problem for my country! They're same as Nazi! I don't want to see their symbol!
D3: Ok, we agree, Evil Soviets are bad and same as Nazi, we'll remove this symbol. We don't care that in grand scheme they had just as many good and bad things about them as our own country, we just want to pamper to Russia haters because it is cool thing nowadays.

If they'd listen, took decision to, say kill 100 bunnies and informed you really fast, would you praise them as well? I don't see how anybody can be "praised" for making a fast decision for political censure.

I somehow think you will find any argument pro-H&S "cheap". Hard dice on that same picture with those symbols? Artists drawing him with H&S background? This all will be "cheap" to you, because it is not your history being pissed on.

For example, didn't some around the world PVE bracket had Spain of as its destination (forgive me for not remembering and imagine that it was if it wasn't): How would YOU react to demand to remove Spain location from game because "it's too sensitive to me, they used to support Axis powers!"

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

Let me clearly restate the reason, if 9 pages is not enough to catch up (despite several other Western people already saying that they do understand this and clearly demonstrating with their post that they get it too):
Some random guy taught from childhood that "Evil Soviets is the biggest problem for your country": Evil Soviets is the biggest problem for my country! They're same as Nazi! I don't want to see their symbol!
D3: Ok, we agree, Evil Soviets are bad and same as Nazi, we'll remove this symbol. We don't care that in grand scheme they had just as many good and bad things about them as our own country, we just want to pamper to Russia haters because it is cool thing nowadays.

If they'd listen, took decision to, say kill 100 bunnies and informed you really fast, would you praise them as well? I don't see how anybody can be "praised" for making a fast decision for political censure.

I somehow think you will find any argument pro-H&S "cheap". Hard dice on that same picture with those symbols? Artists drawing him with H&S background? This all will be "cheap" to you, because it is not your history being pissed on.

For example, didn't some around the world PVE bracket had Spain of as its destination (forgive me for not remembering and imagine that it was if it wasn't): How would YOU react to demand to remove Spain location from game because "it's too sensitive to me, they used to support Axis powers!"

Don't take this so personal. And it's not a nice thing to exaggerate what others have said. "Russia haters" is a big accuse. I understand that some people in this thread stopped talking about the connection of the symbol to Colossus and started talking history and politics of what the symbol represents.

One thing that I agree with you is that this symbol should not be banned and there is nothing wrong with what it represents. The way people take it personally is their own business. The argument that the symbol should be taken down because some people are sensitive about it is NOT the reason this symbol should be changed. The reason the symbol changes is because COLOSSUS is NOT directly CONNECTED to it.

All the people that claim that the symbol is sensitive to them I understand you. I am from Southern EU and I can totally feel you. However, your argument that this symbol should not be used because it makes you feel bad is not a reason because, as you can see, rightfully some people will feel insulted and they will understand this as "Russia is bad".

Like mentioned before, people can feel bad by Cap America's stars. This does not mean that you can come in here and change something that symbolized a character for YEARS. But H&S does NOT symbolize Colossus, so in this case I would vote that it should go.

D3 should give the reason for changing the symbol so that everyone can understand why the change is happening. If the reason is because it is sensitive to a certain part of the community then you should think better. Because removing it is going to irritate another part of the community. But I am sure that the reason is, like I already said, that Colossus is not "Captain Russia" so he should be represented by something appropriate to his character.

If you play INJUSTICE then you know the character Superman: Red Son? Guess what, he has the H&S symbol on his chest. This is what symbolizes this character. Removing it from his chest means killing his history. What do you do in this case? Go to DC and ask for a character change? Nope, you just go with it because he is just a character in a fantasy world.

If Colossus had the same history and H&S was what he was all about then go ahead and put it there. But, since he is not we should have a more appropriate symbol to represent him.

Just this! Any other political arguments and connections to this topic are just redundant. Some people feel good or bad about a lot of stuff. I agree, it can be discussed, but cannot be taken into consideration to change something in the game. Marvel has created the character and they have references and background for them. I am sure they have a representing symbol for each character.

Wolarsen

Thread started with a cultural/political complain for the use of H&S. Some people supported that, while others (including me) said they would recommend symbol change because of Colossus LORE. Again, all or at least most of my reasoning is about character lore. D3 announcement does not specify why they are replacing the symbol; let's ask them their reasons, then we can discuss them. If it is a case of political censure, I would be upset, as I find Colossus H&S symbol as controversial as Captain America's star spangled banner based shield symbol and no one imagines Capt being changed. Please also notice that, on the other hand, I have previously commented that I would avoid using any political/religious/social real life iconography in a gaming environment such as MPQ unless really justified (I think I said "dont hit the hive unless really necessary).

I do not find "any" argument pro-H&S cheap; I just strongly think in this case it just does not represent Colossus properly (linking with previous paragraph, Captain America was fictionally specifically created a s a flag carrier; colossus wasn't). For example, and without leaving MPQ, I would find correct to use H&S with Original Black Widow, because the character was fictionally created by the USSR agencies, and its behaviour is properly related. There are few countries where such a character would make sense in a comic book world; I'd say only USA, USSR, UK and Israel have the image of countries pushing their secret services way as far (I bet a spanish secret agent, sniper and killer would be veeeeery less appealing to the mass media!). I would find best to represent such agents by the symbol of the agency that created/trained them, say CIA, KGB; Mossad or M16, but using the flag of that country would be proper too, as agencies are clearly a part of those governments and its way of doing things.

There is cheapness all around; Kaze Koichi has pointed out how russian characters was often represented in american media, and due to the strenght of such media somehow transmitted to part of the rest of the world. I understand that it was done during cold war, but it was still a cheap way to depict "enemies".


Lastly, if 100 or 200 persons had to be feed, killing 100 rabbits would be cheerfully praised by me!!