Use of sensitive symbols in MPQ - 'Colossus'

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

Yeah I hate the US because I know about it's past. That makes complete sense.

I've no idea how the SU not existing anymore makes it's symbol any more or less hated than the american flag, or makes it more or less justified that it would need to be censored.

Because the USSR can't do better, its done, its gone..the US have the chance to change, the ppl just have to wake up & make their leaders fear them...

Unknown

SunCrusher wrote:

My Ukrainian physician of 10+ years likes to talk about politics of all kinds (which I don't care about because I enjoy listening to people share opinions), and he's about as capable, dependable, and compassionate as they come and open-minded about treatment options to boot and yes, he speaks Russian in addition to his native Ukrainian and has no shame or hate for it.

Now here is an interesting point, is he ethnically Ukrainian or ethnically Russian?

Most people aren't aware that Stalin tried to ethnically cleanse the ethinic Ukrainians back in the 30s, starving up to 10 million people (one reason that ppl may have issues)...


But you do have a good point about colossus vs omega red, I don't know if this argument would have gone this far if it was omega red, as that is part of his character, it isn't as much with colossus (again pointing to the lack of maple left on wolverine)

NorthernPolarity

ark123 wrote:

eris-wtga wrote:

And if you are a person who hates the US that much, I doubt you would be playing this game or dealing with any US centered product altogether.

Yeah I hate the US because I know about it's past. That makes complete sense.

I've no idea how the SU not existing anymore makes it's symbol any more or less hated than the american flag, or makes it more or less justified that it would need to be censored.

I think the whole pride argument makes a lot less sense when the country is around anymore, which is why it's important that the SU doesn't exist today. I mean, saying "Cap should be changed because America sucks" is going to offend a ton of americans because, well, America is still a thing today. Saying that "Colossus should be changed because the USSR sucks and I got bad memories of them" is a different story. Yes, there are still going to be ppl who liked the USSR, but they obviously did some bad stuff that makes certain people in the world today have bad memories, so they should be able to recognize that the USSR symbol is going to invoke bad memories and that it's probably worth conceding changing Colossus's icon because they aren't actually part of the USSR. The USSR icon represents the oppression that countries faced from them to some people, whereas something like the American stars + stripes represents the people actually living in America today, and I think that's a world of difference when it comes to what imagery should be changed or not. Or something like that.

SunCrusher

eris-wtga wrote:

SunCrusher wrote:

My Ukrainian physician of 10+ years likes to talk about politics of all kinds (which I don't care about because I enjoy listening to people share opinions), and he's about as capable, dependable, and compassionate as they come and open-minded about treatment options to boot and yes, he speaks Russian in addition to his native Ukrainian and has no shame or hate for it.

Now here is an interesting point, is he ethnically Ukrainian or ethnically Russian?

Most people aren't aware that Stalin tried to ethnically cleanse the ethinic Ukrainians back in the 30s, starving up to 10 million people (one reason that ppl may have issues)...


But you do have a good point about colossus vs omega red, I don't know if this argument would have gone this far if it was omega red, as that is part of his character, it isn't as much with colossus (again pointing to the lack of maple left on wolverine)

Ethnically Ukrainian (and yes, I was aware of the 'ethnic cleanse' - shudder), actually. Hence, I think, part of the reason he talks a lot about politics... including those related to his homeland. Then again, he's a physician and he has a really strong 'do no harm' presence so perhaps it also bleeds into his other views and opinions, too.

Edit: And yes, I most certainly can see where and how and why people may be sensitive to these issues since it certainly could bring up the negative sides of history.

over_clocked

NP, I do agree that if the symbol is offensive to some people, it probably needs to be removed, not like Colossus can't be represented by something else although I don't find hammer and sickle out of character for him at all. He is a simple (not simplistic) man and his origins and country mean a lot to him, and he is truly a piece of that era, not veritable to come out of modern Russia.
You gotta remember that Colossus represents common people who were not responsible for higher-ups' crimes, and their hammer and sickle symbolized honest labour and that's all. The vast population of the former USSR would be rightfully offended at any comparisons with nazi Germany, or modern US' external politics. The higher-ups are the same everywhere, corrupt, self-righteous and willing to take lives for re-colouring map portions, but so are the common people, same as everywhere, willing to be friends with any walk of life as long as they share their simple beliefs. Hammer and sickle and stars and stripes could be friends if leaders of both didn't strive for domination so much. One is no more and can't defend itself or answer for the crimes (apart from Russia taking on the most of the Soviet heritage, good and bad alike), but the other, or anyone for that matter, shouldn't think it's free from judgement just because it represents living people and not a part of past history. History is made every day, and living history should probably be judged all the more thoroughly than the past.
I get to hear news of the US Air Forces bombing Middle East countries all the time, somehow I don't think that many Middle Easterners play MPQ or come to these forums often, though. Just food for thought.

Unknown

I am more offended by the lack of effort and imagination on the part of the developers. They are getting lazy with their art and Colossus is case in point.

Instead of actually doing work in designing a character, they just rely on LazyArt (trademark pending)

Every time Colossus does his Fastball special , i feel like I am watching Rocky IV

Phillipes

I come from Slovakia, my country was oppresed by Soviet Union from 1969 to 1989. There was civil rebelion in 1989 which freed my country. Im not nationalistic.
I dont hate these days russians, I dont hate germans (Slovakia was part of Third Reich and again, there was rebelion in 1945). I dont hate americans.

It was long ago. But It is just good to remeber it, because you know, history repeats itself.

Nonce Equitaur 2

Perhaps some other symbols could be considered.
1. An oxygen molecule.
2. An outline of an onion
3. A purple martin
4. The BMW symbol
5. A penny

Some might say that all of these were all completely inappropriate. That they have absolutely nothing to do with Colossus. Zero connection.

Probably these people would generally be fine with oxygen, vegetables, mosquito-eating birds, symbols created in 1917, and currency. They aren't even controversial symbols. Heck, I know lots of people that like oxygen. But they want Colossus to have something appropriate.

Unknown

Bah double post..

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

All of that actually undermines the OP's point about removing the hammer-and-sickle from the game due to the USSR's historical baggage. Just about every major nation has walk-in closets filled to the brim with skeletons.

That kinda was my point, it was not so much on the main topic, but directed @ rowaasr13 who seems to think it is pile on Russia time ..& i kinda got into the wine OK?

P.S. - "I am not up on my Belgian history but I am sure there is poop in their history they aren't too proud of." <-- The Congo (well, at least I hope they aren't proud of that ).

Norway?

Unknown

My only issue in this whole debate is where do you draw the line and who decides where that line is drawn?

As a side note on the swastika matter, it is also a positive symbol in some cultures around the world. This whole debate reminds me of how certain words are considered profanity while others are not. Maybe we ought to start a campaign to make "tiny kitty" profanity.

over_clocked

Don't tinykitty with tinykitty!

h4n1s

I have read every single post in this topic. I have to say that I am actually finding this thread very-VERY helpful and interesting. Here is why:

1. There's a lot of information shared which do have added value also for my professional life - as I have to work with different cultures, ethnics and nationalities on daily basis, I find it very useful to learn the different ways of perception of certain problematic - something that may leave me cold and calm, may bring up very strong emotions in others just because of their roots and vice versa

2. I've learned (rather reminded actually) that there is no point in trying to change the pace of discussion to fact based rational state, when strong feelings and emotions are involved

3. I've learned about history much more then in school just by reading some fact based posts

4. I've confirmed that people are on different levels of communication maturity (of course having English as mother tongue impacts the ability to convey the message, but that's a different discussion) - where some do apply active listening some rather slip to assumptions - but we can't/shouldn't blame them for it

I was reflecting a bit today on what I have written in the opening post. Would I changed something if I'd be given a chance to start all over again?

I would word the opening post slightly differently to indicate tolerance with other nations and beliefs, but I would still open a discussion on usage of symbols in this game as no matter how tolerant I would like to be, being exposed to certain symbolic still do feel like salt in an open wound. Symbol of colossus is the salt for my wound (and as I learned, it also is for some others members of this community) and even though the salt may be good on a steak, you still should be careful in how you use it in relation with others.

Dauthi

DrUnpleasant wrote:

locked wrote:

Well, the star is occupied by Captain America... Maybe Colossus could have a shield emblem? A literal shield, not S.H.I.E.L.D.'s emblem.

Not forgetting that Cap's stars and stripes shield could be offensive to certain people too (not myself, but you know what I mean).

I guess it's a fair shout to have it changed - but not everyone neccessarily has bad memories of the soviet era and it was fundamentally Stalin who changed the nature of soviet communism from a benevolent state, run for the people, to an expansionist and ideologically fundamentalist regime. Lenin and Trotsky's vision of the communist state (the origin of the hammer and sickle) was a very positive one.

Exactly. Perhaps in the future Cap's American star will taste sour in the mouth of capitalists as/if it turns for the worse, but will that make the dreams and inspirations of our people any less? There is no one belief or system that is right as humans muddle their way through "life", only optimism for progress.

Zen808

OP, I sympathize that the symbol used for Colossus is painful for you. However, as SunCrusher pointed out, the man that the symbol is attached to is a Good Man. If the devs choose to change the symbol as per your request, then all well and good. If, however, they choose not to, I encourage you to turn things around and see Colossus as the symbol, and the Hanmer and Sickle as the people who would aspire to be like Colossus. Just as the Stars and Stripes are attached to Captain America, the ideal and the hero to be strived after, and not necessarily the Americans who in reality fall short of that.

Remember that we craft stories about heroes, who strive to see the world as it should be. And in doing so, we can hope for the world that could be.

Pylgrim

I am a Colombian living in Australia. Neither I, nor the people close to me throughout my life have ever had anything to do with the whole Eastern and Western blocs, etc. And yet, I was a bit disturbed by seeing that symbol so prominently displayed. It has just way too much history behind it, it should not be used nily-wily for some game character, especially one that has the strong allegiance of being one of the "good guys".

Unknown

Reminder to the Devs

Depending on how the Scottish independance vote goes today, be very careful about using the Union Jack as a symbol for Captain Britain, should you introduce him at a later date....

Unknown

808SpicyToro wrote:

OP, I sympathize that the symbol used for Colossus is painful for you. However, as SunCrusher pointed out, the man that the symbol is attached to is a Good Man. If the devs choose to change the symbol as per your request, then all well and good. If, however, they choose not to, I encourage you to turn things around and see Colossus as the symbol, and the Hanmer and Sickle as the people who would aspire to be like Colossus. Just as the Stars and Stripes are attached to Captain America, the ideal and the hero to be strived after, and not necessarily the Americans who in reality fall short of that.

Remember that we craft stories about heroes, who strive to see the world as it should be. And in doing so, we can hope for the world that could be.

It is not about ideals and aspiration, but choosing the right symbol which identifies a character.

Stars and Stripes are Cap America's symbol because he is called Captain AMERICA! I would expect a British flag, if they ever bring out Captain Britain.

Colossus is not Captain Russia.

And if your argument is "but Colossus is Russian", well so is Black Widow and we don't see hammer and sickles or red flags when she does Aggressive Recon.... Wolverine's symbol should be a Canadian Flag, Psylocke a British Flag, Black Panther a Wakanda Flag etc..

LazyArt I tell you

Unknown

Bringing this up again, because the post immediately after it was the beginning of almost 6 pages of.. well, whatever you want to call that which happened

GhostWolfe wrote:

Pardon my lazy photoshopping, but what about something like this, based on Colossus' costume?

Expanding on my idea a little, I was trying to capture something evocative of the (well, maybe not distinctive, as Nightcrawler is very similar in different colours) V-shapes on the costume torso.

Unknown

I was born in the USSR, emigrated to USA when I was 12. I heard a ton of stories from my parents and grandparents, both personal anecdotes and general events that took place during their lives. It really saddens me that the USSR is viewed in a such a negative light, even being being compared to Nazi Germany in this thread, because while, it is responsible for many atrocities, so were any other imperialist regimes during their time, all the way from Rome to USA. Also, it was responsible for innumerable great things, not just WW2, but various cultural and technological achievements were possible by bringing citizens of different nations together. I understand that this is a bit of "tu quoque" but the hammer & sickle is just as offensive to a Pole or Latvian as the star or the eagle is to an Iraqi.

In this day and age, one can be offended at practically anything, I wonder for example what do victims of gun violence have to say at Punisher's power being firing a gun at the screen, in the direction of the player? I do not mean to be crass, and I do believe that dialogue about these issues is both informative and necessariy but one cannot whitewash art to please the loudest and most offended voices in the community.

It is possible that the hammer & sickle was not the correct choice from the start, however removing it now would be insulting to me, basically telling me that the country of my birth in an evil entity, the symbol of which should be locked away forever in good company of the swastika and the confederate flag.

All of this might have been mentioned in the thread before, but I would just like to add my voice for keeping the symbol.