Use of sensitive symbols in MPQ - 'Colossus'

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

I'm not saying stamp them from history

That's exactly what you're saying.

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

"I don't have any sane arguments so I'll pretend you don't exists in my little world full of rainbows, you evil Russki guy". Typical westerner.

Comments like that don't help your case at all. You can't answer hatred with more hatred.

It's simple, Devs, just make a new icon. Case closed.

David [Hi-Fi] Moore

Hi all,

If I could have your attention for a second please. We want to keep this thread open as it's a helpful debate.

A few users have taken things a bit far and into the realm of insults and name-calling. The forum users in question have been warned and asked for "friendlier" edits of their posts.

Again, debate and conversation are welcomed. Insults and name-calling are not.

Thank you.

Unknown

Bottom line from me: your Soviet hate is your local problem. As you rightfully noted, it is World Wide game. Don't bring your local problems to World Wide game. After all, you can simply stop using oh so hated-SOVIET Colossus and you'll never see this symbol on your allied side again. If you still about him being on enemy side - well, what's bad for you in beating this EVIL SOVIET guy, eh?

theshadeofopal

Weird how this all starts with an x-men originally was created as nod towards diversity (see giant size X-men 1# true believers).

I feel like this would be the equivalent of a yank southerner like myself taking offense if someone asked them to remove a confederate flag from an easily visible point. No on argues the right to use it. Does it offend the person displaying it? No. Does it have have personal negative connotations to the majority of the people who see it? No.Its not about saying people who think fondly of such a symbol are bad people or that that there ancestors were. But the pride involved in displaying it, for whatever reason, doesn't erase the real, relatively recent memories of oppression and hate associated with it for others.

Anyway, theres a south park episode that makes this argument much more entertainingly than I do.

Trisul

I sympathize with the OP. I don't have any reaction to the icon myself, but being from a formerly imperialized nation, I completely understand the sentiments that can be associated with certain symbols.

As for MPQ, it's quite unfortunate that they chose a symbol that could be controversial. Regardless of what they do now, it's a potential PR hit either way.

Unknown

GappV2 wrote:

rowaasr13 wrote:

Comments like that don't help your case at all. You can't answer hatred with more hatred.
It's simple, Devs, just make a new icon. Case closed.

You're welcome to provide an example of comments that would help, through seen that your positions is just the same - i.e. erase "bad" symbol, I don't really see you formulating any.

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

GappV2 wrote:

rowaasr13 wrote:

Comments like that don't help your case at all. You can't answer hatred with more hatred.
It's simple, Devs, just make a new icon. Case closed.

You're welcome to provide an example of comments that would help, through seen that your positions is just the same - i.e. erase "bad" symbol, I don't really see you formulating any.

I'm not the one who has a problem with anything. It's a match-3 game. I play it for fun. I leave personal feelings at the door.

Not once did I say "bad" symbol. I am neutral, but all I see is people putting words in to others mouths. On both sides.

Anyway, no rebuttal from me after this. Carry on, I'm going back to grinding ISO.

Unknown

Here I thought they stepped up and showed the world that cool heroes can be from the old Soviet union as well, and that heroes and "good guys" can exist from any regime ever.

Guess I am just too positive about things.

Unknown

I agree with that. But note that I didn't come here attacking somebody else's imagery (for those who didn't figure out Cap's post is edited sarcastic copypasta of original). I don't really understand why people is so positive about attacking someone else.

Well, actually I do. Because it is Russian symbol. Those evil red bear commies. Admit it, you were taught to hate them from childhood. You may never even seen one. But pretty much every movie/book or whatever mentioning them takes a subtle jab and reminds you that they're enemies, so after dozen of those it is just another nature to you. Yeah, "just remove it - solved!" indeed. What's the big deal? Erasing somebody's crest branding it "bad" in process is not insulting whatsoever!

And I don't want to see MPQ to be another game in this line.

Unknown

Regarding comparisons to Captain America's Stars and Stripes iconography, I think there is a major difference between the two heroes. Captain AMERICA is a nationalist hero with nationalist symbolism. He consciously adopts the symbols of the nation as his superhero persona. Colossus is from the former Soviet Union/current Russia. Of course he grew up there and the history and culture are influences on who he is, but he is not a nationalist hero. His superhero persona is not one that really has much of anything to do with his nation of origin. Colossus needs a hammer and sickle as his icon as much as Wolverine needs a maple leaf.

BearVenger

Ben Grimm wrote:

ark123 wrote:

He's also been depicted with a hammer and sicle in his frame dozens of times and had talked about the Soviet Union a ton.

Wasn't he being mind-controlled there? In any case, that's the equivalent of saying that Spidey's symbol should be the Fantastic Four logo because he wore the Bagman outfit once.

2* Colossus in F4 costume, here we come.

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

You're welcome to provide an example of comments that would help, through seen that your positions is just the same - i.e. erase "bad" symbol, I don't really see you formulating any.

Holodomor, how is that for an example? How about bread lines? Spying on their own ppl *turns cocked eyebrow towards the US* killing ppl who tried to escape? Gulags?...


Look the USSR did some bad poop, denying it isn't going to change anything (well may cause it to be repeated if you believe the saying). Some people do remeber the effects that the idiologies that symbol represents, just because you have fond memories doesn't mean that someone else isn't deeply troubled by it...

But guess what? The US has done some bad poop. Canada has done some bad poop. Australia has done some bad poop. I am not up on my Belgian history but I am sure there is poop in their history they aren't too proud of. No one is condemning the peoples of those countries for the bad **** that has happened. We cannot change the past all we can do make sure it doesn't happen again.

And finally the h&c is not vital to collosus as a character (wolverine doesn't have the maple leaf anywhere near him), and becoming more & more irrelevant as he will soon become too young to have been born under the iron curtain...

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

ark123 wrote:

http://gobbledygeekbtr.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/colossus.png

He's also been depicted with a hammer and sicle in his frame dozens of times and had talked about the Soviet Union a ton.

Wasn't he being mind-controlled there? In any case, that's the equivalent of saying that Spidey's symbol should be the Fantastic Four logo because he wore the Bagman outfit once.

And none of these have anything to do with the central argument which is that the Soviet Union legitimately oppressed people, and is probably too loaded a symbol to be appropriate in a game like this.

Sure, I just enjoy it when someone says stuff like "this never ever happened" and I have a picture of it happening. That wasn't the basis for my argument at all and you didn't address my other points.

Piotr was born in the SU and he frequently talked about being a farm boy there. He's talked a bunch of times about the state of Russia post-SU and it's former glory. To say he has nothing to do with it is ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst.

This entire debate hinges on a single concept - can symbols be inherently offensive. You argument that it's "just an all-ages match 3 game" doesn't hold water. This is true for most marvel stuff and they talk about much more uncomfortable and complex issues than the past existence of the SU. There's no consensus that the SU was evil by the way, it's nothing like nazi Germany to the vast majority of the planet. Are there places that think of this symbol as the same as a burning flag? I'm sure. But the same can easily be said about the american flag and several arabic states, so the entire argument falls apart instantly.

Unknown

eris-wtga wrote:

rowaasr13 wrote:

Look the USSR did some bad poop, denying it isn't going to change anything (well may cause it to be repeated if you believe the saying). Some people do remeber the effects that the idiologies that symbol represents, just because you have fond memories doesn't mean that someone else is deeply troubled by it...

Hey eris, ever study up on Vietnam? Do you know what happened to the native americans? There are no countries without innocent blood on it's hands. Hell, try taking a trip to Afghanistan or Iraq and wear the US flag on your chest today. See how much people like cap's tile in those places.

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

Hey eris, ever study up on Vietnam? Do you know what happened to the native americans? There are no countries without innocent blood on it's hands. Hell, try taking a trip to Afghanistan or Iraq and wear the US flag on your chest today. See how much people like cap's tile in those places.

Did you finish reading the rest of my post?


Now this does raise a point that the US still exists, unlike the USSR. And if you are a person who hates the US that much, I doubt you would be playing this game or dealing with any US centered product altogether.

Unknown

eris-wtga wrote:

And if you are a person who hates the US that much, I doubt you would be playing this game or dealing with any US centered product altogether.

Yeah I hate the US because I know about it's past. That makes complete sense.

I've no idea how the SU not existing anymore makes it's symbol any more or less hated than the american flag, or makes it more or less justified that it would need to be censored.

Unknown

Trisul wrote:

ark123 wrote:

My point is that it doesn't matter what some people do with a symbol. They found swastikas I etched into rocks in the shores of Brazil hundreds of years ago, should those etchings not be allowed to be pictured because of the way they were used in the 20th century? I if they are, are those pictures supposed to be considered offensive? Maybe removed because a jew like myself makes a post on the publishers forum?

You picked a silly example here to illustrate your point. If you are celebrating Brazil history day and hang up swastikas all along the outside of your house (or even on these forums), you will get some perfectly deserved complaints.

Game developers typically want to shy away from controversy. Picking an alternate symbol (even something generic or dumb) would usually be preferred over any potential of causing bad feelings in any demographic.

That's actually a solid point. These are all solid points. Way better than "Soviet Union was bad so symbol is bad".

SunCrusher

A little bit about myself. I'm in my 30s. I'm Taiwanese. I live in the United States. My 'people' and my 'homeland' have been 'taken over/colonized and influenced' a few times - by the Chinese people of the Hokkien province long ago, by the Japanese, by the Portuguese, by the Dutch, by the late-coming Chinese (the Taiwanese spoken language dates back to Hokkienese roots, the later Mandarin-dominant language dates to later mainland Chinese influence), etc.

Politics regarding these situations are extremely heated to this day, but I don't buy into the whole, "I should be hating/loving the Chinese!" and "I should be hating/loving the Japanese!" mentality for what happened and yes, as I was growing up, both of these thoughts were quite prevalent depending on who was expressing what opinion.

Additionally, I am an American citizen; does this mean that I also should be hating Japan and the Japanese even more because of WWII? And yet, because Taiwan and Japan were 'united' during WWII and because a Japanese soldier saved my maternal grandfather and therefore made possible the birth of my mother which led to my own birth, how do I reconcile?

Also, as an Asian growing up in the middle of the United States in the middle of rural nowhere, the **** WAS STILL ACTIVE in isolated communities and I/my family got threatened with this while I was growing up and IT WAS TERRIFYING. Should I be hating all white Americans, too?

There are some people who think I should, but I DON'T.

My best friends and the most important and authoritative people over the course of my life have come from ALL walks of life.

My best friend in primary school was about as white Caucasian as he could be. His mother was about as open-minded as they come while his father was about as racist as they come.

My pediatrician for 16 years was German; despite being devoutly religious and even spending time to teach my ESL mother English using the Bible during long office visits, he was just as adamantly pro-Mother and Family's Future when it came time for my mother to make a decision in regards to the potential passing down of a very serious genetic disorder - one that might result in the child's death within 5 years if it even passed childbirth to begin with.

My Japanese neighbors for the while that I actually had another non-Caucasian neighbor were an extremely gracious host and hostess and though we had problems communicating with one another, she (the husband was at work) always welcomed children into her home whenever parents were not home. Being a latchkey kid for the bulk majority of my primary and secondary school life, this open invitation was extended very frequently.

My Graduate Student Instructor/finishing his PhD at university for my calculus class was Russian and he was the only one who had any kind of patience to sit down with me and teach-teach me and help me fill in the missing blanks in my education that had resulted from my family moving around during my last year of high school. He was one of the most punctual, serious, dependable, and disciplined instructors I had ever known during my stint in university and when I told him as such, he credited it to 'Mother Russia' and I would believe it.

My Ukrainian physician of 10+ years likes to talk about politics of all kinds (which I don't care about because I enjoy listening to people share opinions), and he's about as capable, dependable, and compassionate as they come and open-minded about treatment options to boot and yes, he speaks Russian in addition to his native Ukrainian and has no shame or hate for it.

And that's just a few people that come to mind.

The way I see it, the past is the past; we can't change what happened but we can learn from it - learn from history - try our damndest to not repeat it and every single person on this planet can contribute by simply showing more respect and tolerance and forgiveness to their fellow man (and woman, but you get my point) and that includes respecting history as being exactly what it is - history.

Though I can completely understand how people may feel that certain symbols are offensive, I can also see how people might think that removing such a symbol could be considered to be a denial of history and a catch-all "whatever this represents, it's ALL BAD - every last bit!" when such an extreme is likely not the truth as there is seldom 'all good' or 'all bad' in anything in this world. I also understand the sentiment that these feelings could be applied to any symbol - including Captain America's and whoever else's - depending on where a person is coming from.

For Colossus - and maybe I'm the only person here to see this - I always saw him as a POSITIVE example of a fictional character of the real-depicted-in-fiction (former) USSR. From what my trading cards and comics told me, he was the Gentle Giant - a painter and a farmer - and someone who could have used his immense strength and size and mutation to do great harm... but ultimately didn't. To me, he represented the farmers, the hard workers, the people who persevered, the people who did NOT want war, the people who would call Russia 'Mother Russia' because they loved their actual homeland and the culture and not the things that might be characterized as negative or perverting.

His polar opposite would be Omega Red - experimented on by the government, turned into a superweapon, and became that very superweapon, etc - and he came from the (former) USSR, too.

In terms of the Marvel Universe and X-Men Universe, it was clear to me even as a child that these two characters could be interpreted as two sides of the coin that was the USSR at the time.

Colossus was the 'good' and represented the good side of things, Omega Red was the 'bad' and represented the bad side of things.

As such, I don't think I see the hammer and sickle the same way as some other posters do; I see it as symbolic of a figurative and creative battle in a fictional world that was a reflection of our own world at the time which was consequently symbolic of BOTH the good things and the bad things.

My GSI had far more impact on my life than he ever realized, I think, despite my best efforts to communicate them to him. He was the instructor who I hoped beyond hope would later become a freshman level professor because he was a fantastic example of what a 'real' and 'good' teacher should be. He was the 'gentle intellectual athlete' who knew how to teach and who had the patience to do so - something he credited to his upbringing - and who loved running cross country, going hiking, and bicycling for great lengths of time. He appreciated his upbringing - it had given him immense discipline and had opened up opportunities for him, but he also appreciated what freedoms the United States had to offer.

As such, he reminds me of Colossus; he reminds me that there was 'good' in what were undeniably some 'bad' times.

In the same way, my best friend reminded me that even within the same family, love and open-mindedness could somehow coexist together with hatred and narrow-mindedness. That was 20+ years ago when I first met him; 20+ years later, he's still the same guy I remember... while his father has hardly changed.

There's two sides of every coin and I deeply respect both.

I may not agree with everything everyone says, but I will always try my best to respect everyone's right to their own opinions because that is what freedom is all about.

Change or no change to the symbol, I can and will understand whatever the decision may be.

HailMary

eris-wtga wrote:

Look the USSR did some bad poop, denying it isn't going to change anything (well may cause it to be repeated if you believe the saying). Some people do remeber the effects that the idiologies that symbol represents, just because you have fond memories doesn't mean that someone else is deeply troubled by it...

But guess what? The US has done some bad poop. Canada has done some bad poop. Australia has done some bad poop. I am not up on my Belgian history but I am sure there is poop in their history they aren't too proud of. No one is condemning the peoples of those countries for the bad tinykitty that has happened. We cannot change the past all we can do make sure it doesn't happen again.

All of that actually undermines the OP's point about removing the hammer-and-sickle from the game due to the USSR's historical baggage. Just about every major nation has walk-in closets filled to the brim with skeletons.

eris-wtga wrote:

And finally the h&c is not vital to collosus as a character (wolverine doesn't have the maple leaf anywhere near him), and becoming more & more irrelevant as he will soon become too young to have been born under the iron curtain...

This is a good point, but it's been largely ignored in this discussion because it has nothing to do with the OP's point. If we're looking at Colossus' logo solely in the context of "remove this character-associated symbol that, to me, represents historical **** stuff I feel strongly about", the same argument applies to stripping Captain America of his Stars & Stripes which, noting how central they are to his character's identity, would almost certainly mean completely removing him from the game itself.

P.S. - "I am not up on my Belgian history but I am sure there is poop in their history they aren't too proud of." <-- The Congo (well, at least I hope they aren't proud of that ).