Use of sensitive symbols in MPQ - 'Colossus'

Unknown

nunberry wrote:

Reminder to the Devs

Depending on how the Scottish independance vote goes today, be very careful about using the Union Jack as a symbol for Captain Britain, should you introduce him at a later date....

The problem with that is that is his symbol, well currently, they could co with the loinesk image that use to be displayed.

Heck if they use Banshee, I hope they use a shamrock for his symbol.

Unknown

gazgaz wrote:

I was born in the USSR, emigrated to USA when I was 12. I heard a ton of stories from my parents and grandparents, both personal anecdotes and general events that took place during their lives. It really saddens me that the USSR is viewed in a such a negative light, even being being compared to Nazi Germany in this thread, because while, it is responsible for many atrocities, so were any other imperialist regimes during their time, all the way from Rome to USA. Also, it was responsible for innumerable great things, not just WW2, but various cultural and technological achievements were possible by bringing citizens of different nations together. I understand that this is a bit of "tu quoque" but the hammer & sickle is just as offensive to a Pole or Latvian as the star or the eagle is to an Iraqi.

In this day and age, one can be offended at practically anything, I wonder for example what do victims of gun violence have to say at Punisher's power being firing a gun at the screen, in the direction of the player? I do not mean to be crass, and I do believe that dialogue about these issues is both informative and necessariy but one cannot whitewash art to please the loudest and most offended voices in the community.

It is possible that the hammer & sickle was not the correct choice from the start, however removing it now would be insulting to me, basically telling me that the country of my birth in an evil entity, the symbol of which should be locked away forever in good company of the swastika and the confederate flag.

All of this might have been mentioned in the thread before, but I would just like to add my voice for keeping the symbol.

No one is claiming your country to be an "evil entity" or anything of this kind. And no one is that this symbol should be banned from anywhere. The whole idea of this thread is to express the sensitive nature of this symbol and all the feelings that come with it.

Like posters before said, Colossus is not Captain Soviet Union and he does not symbolize them. So the symbol is not directly connected to him. However, you can understand that symbols have positive and negative feelings connected to them. Now some people's feelings are triggered when they see this symbol and it is not up to us to change that. In cases like this what is best is to avoid all this by replacing it with something not as sensitive.The comparison with the swastika is not to show how bad or good the entity that the symbol is representing was. It is to show the amount of influence that is connected to this symbol.

Now the way a symbol is used is a completely different aspect. I do not think that the game used the symbol in order to make a point or favor something or someone. They clearly did not think about it very much and they just went with it. In this case no one should feel insulted. I agree that removing it after it is implemented may in fact encourage some negative reactions, but not to the extent of feeling insulted. Unless that symbol is directly representing YOU, there is no actual reason to take offense.

There is no nation out there that does not have a "dark side" in their history. And in each nation, reminding them of that part of the history might bring out some negative feelings and reactions. So if this symbol is generating negative feelings for some people, you should not take insult because no one is insulting you in personal. There is just a part of history connected to that symbol that has nothing to do with you personally.

Personally, I want the symbol to be changed just because it has NOTHING to do with the character directly. I can totally bypass the symbol and everything it stands for or it represents. Heck, I don't even care if the swastika is a symbol or a costume for a character. After all it is just a comic game and if a character is part of a history that has to do with those specific events, I can understand it and take it just for what it is. However, I can agree that some people are sensitive (and some other are just going along for the heck of this topic) but you sensitive people have to understand that other people might also feel sensitive about the removal of this symbol.

I think when it comes down to it, there should be a poll or something to decide whether the symbol should be changed or not. It is better that the community as a whole votes for it in order to avoid further topics like this or even worse ones. And let us get back to the freaking game, we have a PVE to win!

wymtime

I appriciate this thread because it is a real topic. I first want to say I don't think D3 meant any offense to people. I Know a big part of Colossus is that he is Russian and he goes back and forth between Russian and the US specificly durring the cold war. I believe this is why D3 chose the hammer and sickle as his symbol.
Here is what I found that the hammer and sickle means:
the hammer and sickle (☭) is a communist symbol that was conceived during the Russian Revolution. At the time of creation, the hammer stood for industrial labourers (who dominated the proletariat of Russia), and the sickle for the peasantry; combined they stood for the worker-peasant alliance for socialism and against reactionary movements and foreign intervention.

Being Jewish I know the importance of symbols in society. Just becuase a symbol's original meaning has good intentions that does not mean it is good today. The Swastika symbol represents Nazi Germany and is corolated to the holocost and I know I would be severly upset if this symbol became apart of the game.

I look at the hammer and sickle as a representation of the cold war and Russia. From this thread I feel it has some really neg feelins for other players world wide and I hope D3 will take note and change it. They types of feelings that come from symbols like this are very powerful and should not be taken lightly. I think there are other symbols they can use for him that will still be a good representation of Colossus. Colossus is an X-men and a Hero. This symbol is not associated with him on the marvel website when I looked so D3 please choose another symbol.

GuntherBlobel

gazgaz wrote:

It is possible that the hammer & sickle was not the correct choice from the start, however removing it now would be insulting to me, basically telling me that the country of my birth in an evil entity, the symbol of which should be locked away forever in good company of the swastika and the confederate flag.

I feel a lot of sympathy for your position here. But before I go further, I want to say that I don't think the OP condones the USSR hate posts in any way. I'm glad he/she created this thread, even if it has been a bit nasty at times.

Here's why I feel sympathy for you: I've married into a muslim family. I wasn't raised muslim, but I'm effectively muslim now. I think it would be neat if the new Ms. Marvel (who is muslim) were featured as a character. But if they made her tile icon the star and crescent, I would cringe (in disbelief). I would then find myself in your position, disheartened by the controversy that would surely ensue. Particularly so, since the controversy could have been easily avoided.

But, then again, this scenario would never happen, because a game developer is the US would know how loaded that symbol is (wrongly or rightly) and simply avoid it. I'm going to give the devs the benefit of the doubt here and assume that they simply didn't realize that the H&S is similarly controversial outside the US. But still, you can see from this thread how ignorance of broader cultural sensitivities is itself a problem.

The developers now have to perform an unfortunate cost/benefit analysis to determine how to be least offensive. In an admittedly absurd calculus, they have to weigh differing geo-political sensitivities alongside comic book lore and fandom. Again, this whole thing illustrates why being thoughtfully aware of cultural sensitivities is important.

(On a side note, I never liked the Punisher's animation. And, yes, there were complaints on the forum from parents when he was released. Until they allow me to lock him out or bypass animations, my young impressionable son is not allowed to play a match-3 game that features his hero, Spider-man. I'm fine with this. Sometimes you win the sensitivity battle and sometimes you lose. I think we simply must come to terms with the fact that many, many things have the potential to offend large groups of people. Just because anything could be deemed offensive does not invalidate such concerns. We should try to be aware of these things, at very least.)

jojeda654

Okin107 wrote:

Colossus is not Captain Soviet Union and he does not symbolize them.

I keep seeing this argument through out the thread. I've refrained from participating in the discussion because I was born a few months after the USSR was dissolved. But from my "research" (Wikipedia), I've noticed that all Soviet Union flags also included a yellow star outline. To me, H&S = communist parties. H&S+Yellow Star Outline =USSR.

So I'm OK with Colossus keeping the Hammer and Sickle as long as he considers himself a champion of the communist ideals, and not the totalitarianism that it usually devolves into.

As a tangent, what are y'alls opinions on Red Son?

user311

I have a tendency to think that D3/Demiurge added this to the game because they thought it may look cool. I really dont think that they put real thought behind the symbolism it may hold. I also dont think that it should even have been their call. Any new character or artististc representation in this game should be directly derived from Marvel (or I think should have approval). If Marvel approved this and agrees with it then, really we should move on.

GuntherBlobel

user311 wrote:

If Marvel approved this and agrees with it then, really we should move on.

Ehh... I'm not sure it's that simple. As a Marvel fan, I expect Captain America to rock the stars and stripes --- it's essential to his character and he is essential to the MCU. I already bought into that. But, the H&S is not essential to Colossus. Marvel probably approved it, but despite being a Marvel fan, I have not bought into that. I would still take some issue.

Let's shift the conversation to gameplay for just a minute. When I first played Colossus, it took me a few seconds to associate the H&S with him. I thought "USSR?... who?... oh Colossus... yeah... I guess..."

This is why I bet it the H&S will go. The H&S is a convenient pre-existing icon, but it doesn't actually help me identify the correct character. We should help GhostWolfe with his design. Colossus's icon should match something from his image or animation, at least! I'm ignoring the sensitivity issue here completely and strictly talking from a UI perspective. When the patch notes come out, they will simply read: "Colossus's icon has been changed to better identify the character it represents".

Edit --- here's a fun analogy:
Let's say you were making a killer match-3 game themed with the original Star Trek characters that was going to make a ton of money if done right. You had tiles with a Captain's chair (Kirk), a Tri-corder (Spock), and a Communicator (Uhura), etc., etc. Oh, except for Chekov, who is represented by the H&S. Offensive? Maybe, to some. Confusing? Absolutely.

Pylgrim

gazgaz wrote:

I was born in the USSR, emigrated to USA when I was 12. I heard a ton of stories from my parents and grandparents, both personal anecdotes and general events that took place during their lives. It really saddens me that the USSR is viewed in a such a negative light, even being being compared to Nazi Germany in this thread, because while, it is responsible for many atrocities, so were any other imperialist regimes during their time, all the way from Rome to USA. Also, it was responsible for innumerable great things, not just WW2, but various cultural and technological achievements were possible by bringing citizens of different nations together. I understand that this is a bit of "tu quoque" but the hammer & sickle is just as offensive to a Pole or Latvian as the star or the eagle is to an Iraqi.

In this day and age, one can be offended at practically anything, I wonder for example what do victims of gun violence have to say at Punisher's power being firing a gun at the screen, in the direction of the player? I do not mean to be crass, and I do believe that dialogue about these issues is both informative and necessariy but one cannot whitewash art to please the loudest and most offended voices in the community.

It is possible that the hammer & sickle was not the correct choice from the start, however removing it now would be insulting to me, basically telling me that the country of my birth in an evil entity, the symbol of which should be locked away forever in good company of the swastika and the confederate flag.

All of this might have been mentioned in the thread before, but I would just like to add my voice for keeping the symbol.

I'm sorry but you surely have to be aware that the USSR was comprised of (in most cases) forcefully annexed territories. Removing a game icon is not anyone implying that it was "evil" more than history does. There is a reason why the USSR doesn't exist anymore. Moreover, the H&S is not even the full flag of your native country, but rather the emblem of the very much bloodstained (and ultimately failed) communist revolution. There's no reason for you to feel sad or insulted by its removal from the game.

Unknown

By the way a guy that's always called Piotr, calls people "tovarish" or comrade and has an iron curtain over his skin and super strength as a powers totally is captain russia.

OnesOwnGrief

ark123 wrote:

By the way a guy that's always called Piotr, calls people "tovarish" or comrade and has an iron curtain over his skin and super strength as a powers totally is captain russia.

You weren't supposed to put that together. Get out of here ark.

GuntherBlobel

ark123 wrote:

By the way a guy that's always called Piotr, calls people "tovarish" or comrade and has an iron curtain over his skin and super strength as a powers totally is captain russia.

Well, I personally don't agree, but there's a little truth to every argument that's been made in this thread. It's definitely not an easy call and I'm very interested to see what Demiurge does.

Unknown

Iron curtain over his skin. Never thought of it that way. +1 for cleverness.

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

By the way a guy that's always called Piotr, calls people "tovarish" or comrade and has an iron curtain over his skin and super strength as a powers totally is captain russia.

So if wolvie said 'eh' instead of 'bub' would that make him captain canuck? (Well no cus of copyright infringement)

homeinvasion

my 2 cents: If it is insensitive it needs to be ninja nerfed. Is the two headed eagle offensive?

Unknown

homeinvasion wrote:

my 2 cents: If it is insensitive it needs to be ninja nerfed. Is the two headed eagle offensive?

Most people probably even dont realize youre talking bout Russian coat of arms. And youre probably joking bout this but I will say anyway that it was abolished after revolution and restored few years after fall of SU so it doesnt have anything common with Colossus

Unknown

Enoc99 wrote:

They should use something along the lines of this for his tile image:

The more I think about it, the more I like something like this. I think Colossus's hand symbolizes a lot about him, beyond just the obvious "he has a metal fist for punching!" side of it. He was a farmer, he worked with his hands. He is an artist, he creates with his hands. His hands are how he interacts with the world and can be used gently, creatively, protectively, or offensively. Thanks for suggesting the image, Enoc!

Unknown

RemusThirty wrote:

Enoc99 wrote:

They should use something along the lines of this for his tile image:

The more I think about it, the more I like something like this. I think Colossus's hand symbolizes a lot about him, beyond just the obvious "he has a metal fist for punching!" side of it. He was a farmer, he worked with his hands. He is an artist, he creates with his hands. His hands are how he interacts with the world and can be used gently, creatively, protectively, or offensively. Thanks for suggesting the image, Enoc!

Personally I think it looks more like Dr claw. But that is just me.

Unknown

Yep, an iron fist is what I would associate with Colossus.

What I find annoying about the choice of icon is that it's just that lazy cliché. He is Russian, so let's give him hammer and sickle. I know a couple of Russians, and they all find that automatic association with communism offensive - just like I, Swiss-born and German-speaking, find those cliché dumb Americans offensive who yell "Sieg Heil!" or similar the moment they hear I'm of German mothertongue.

For the record, I understand those people who are offended by the symbol very well. I know Bulgarians and Hungarians who have suffered under the communist regime. I know what life was like in Eastern Germany during the communist reign (from one dictatorship straight into the next, there wasn't that much of a difference).

Unknown

dragma wrote:

RemusThirty wrote:

Enoc99 wrote:

They should use something along the lines of this for his tile image:

The more I think about it, the more I like something like this. I think Colossus's hand symbolizes a lot about him, beyond just the obvious "he has a metal fist for punching!" side of it. He was a farmer, he worked with his hands. He is an artist, he creates with his hands. His hands are how he interacts with the world and can be used gently, creatively, protectively, or offensively. Thanks for suggesting the image, Enoc!

Personally I think it looks more like Dr claw. But that is just me.

I'd rather a fist tile is saved for when they add Iron Fist.

OnesOwnGrief

If they do introduce Iron First, wouldn't that be a missed opportunity to have a Dragon graphic on a tile?