Use of sensitive symbols in MPQ - 'Colossus'

Unknown

According to your view of history, Nazi Germany would have bombed Japan, not been allies with them. Also, the entire Russian population in the occupied territory would have been slaughtered straight away, not just certain ethnicities. Just saying. Genocide was used as a means of "internal cleansing" mainly, a way of getting rid of unwanted minority groups within their own territory. Originally plans were to simply exile certain groups, like the idea of sending them off to Madagascar. Murdering them systematically was decided in 1942. True, reducing the population in some of the conquered territories was discussed as well to make more room for settlers, but in no way did that concern all of the territories.

As a matter of fact, national socialism and stalinistic ideology aren't too far apart. While the "left wing" of the NSDAP lost quite a bit of its influence as early as 1934 (the so-called Röhm uprising was a good excuse to get rid of the Strasser brothers and others from that faction), "social" ideas and institutions were quite prevalent. Equally, particularly Stalin (though it surfaced with Lenin and with those who came ater Stalin as well) had a fairly nationalistic ideology.
The Great Purge under Stalin alone is estimated to have caused around 10 million lives, and that's just what happened in the 30s. What's the point of comparing numbers? We're talking about two totalitarian regimes here that really weren't that far apart, ideology-wise.

A good part of the reason why Khrushchev chose the path of de-stalinisation and of loosening the rule somewhat was that he had only just come out victorious of an internal struggle because he needed all the allies he could get. However, the brutal suppression of the uprisings against Soviet occupation in Hungary and Poland happened under his rule; Stalin was already dead by then.
With time, all dictatorships grow more lax. Doesn't excuse what happened before, though.

Finally, before I suggest we return to the original topic, I'd like to ask people that we're not talking comic books here. Can we leave the word "evil" out of a historical discussion, please? Countries aren't evil. People can be (though I wouldn't use the word in a factual discussion either, it's a rather, well, mythological term, and therefore, IMO, misplaced), but nobody is "pure evil". I suggest a more objective term, like (war) criminal.

Enough of that. Back to Colossus.

David [Hi-Fi] Moore

Hello everyone,

I wanted to give you another update regarding the in-game symbol for Colossus.

After much discussion, we have decided to change and replace the current symbol to something that better represents this epic hero. We do not yet have a firm date for when the change will occur, but we hope to have the new symbol in-game within the next few weeks.

Thank you for your patience as we work to implement the change.

Unknown

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

I wanted to give you another update regarding the in-game symbol for Colossus.

After much discussion, we have decided to change and replace the current symbol to something that better represents this epic hero. We do not yet have a firm date for when the change will occur, but we hope to have the new symbol in-game within the next few weeks.

Thank you for your patience as we work to implement the change.

Yet the game makers still decided to add a giant one in Reel Steel instead of just a red ball.

Unknown

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

I wanted to give you another update regarding the in-game symbol for Colossus.

After much discussion, we have decided to change and replace the current symbol to something that better represents this epic hero. We do not yet have a firm date for when the change will occur, but we hope to have the new symbol in-game within the next few weeks.

Thank you for your patience as we work to implement the change.

Thank you, really.

IceIX

Mahabone wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

I wanted to give you another update regarding the in-game symbol for Colossus.

After much discussion, we have decided to change and replace the current symbol to something that better represents this epic hero. We do not yet have a firm date for when the change will occur, but we hope to have the new symbol in-game within the next few weeks.

Thank you for your patience as we work to implement the change.

Yet the game makers still decided to add a giant one in Reel Steel instead of just a red ball.

Impossible to change at this point, unfortunately. That particular graphic is client side.

HailMary

Malcoran wrote:

Well, if we are thinking this way you can add practically broking England and France alliances with Poland (declaring war and sitting in trenches instead military help) or Yalta conference, where Churchill and Roosevelt "gave" Poland with few other countries to Russia. Hell, dont forget bout Poland taking Zaolzie!

Yes, that's kinda my point. The Allied powers were hardly in it for the altruism, and were ruthlessly pragmatic before, during, and after the war. It's easy to find very bad things that the "good guys" did in WWII (and getting progressively easier that the hero worship fades over time), so I'll agree that no major power was "good" in WWII... but you're not saying that at all, not even remotely. You're condemning Russia specifically for cooperating and making deals with Nazi Germany, something that several other countries did rather eagerly in the run-up to World War II. Around 10 million Russian soldiers died fighting the Axis -- more than 20 times the military casualties of any other single Allied power with the exception of China, but that curiously doesn't factor into your moral calculus.

Malcoran wrote:

But do you seriously think you can compare all countries and put everyone in same basket? Cause for me its pretty exaggerating.

Yeah, I'll definitely take tips on "exaggerating" from the guy calling other people "insane." Even if your strawman was in any way accurate, it'd still be a bit more useful than patting oneself on the back for simply labeling certain things "pure evil" -- certain things that, again, happened on both sides.

Unknown

I've never been a fan of censorship, but eh, I guess as long as you are offended, you are right. Goodbye

EDIT: Self-censorship, sorryyyy, not my first language etc.

Unknown

Rico Dredd wrote:

According to your view of history, Nazi Germany would have bombed Japan, not been allies with them. Also, the entire Russian population in the occupied territory would have been slaughtered straight away, not just certain ethnicities. Just saying. Genocide was used as a means of "internal cleansing" mainly, a way of getting rid of unwanted minority groups within their own territory. Originally plans were to simply exile certain groups, like the idea of sending them off to Madagascar. Murdering them systematically was decided in 1942. True, reducing the population in some of the conquered territories was discussed as well to make more room for settlers, but in no way did that concern all of the territories.

As a matter of fact, national socialism and stalinistic ideology aren't too far apart. While the "left wing" of the NSDAP lost quite a bit of its influence as early as 1934 (the so-called Röhm uprising was a good excuse to get rid of the Strasser brothers and others from that faction), "social" ideas and institutions were quite prevalent. Equally, particularly Stalin (though it surfaced with Lenin and with those who came ater Stalin as well) had a fairly nationalistic ideology.
The Great Purge under Stalin alone is estimated to have caused around 10 million lives, and that's just what happened in the 30s. What's the point of comparing numbers? We're talking about two totalitarian regimes here that really weren't that far apart, ideology-wise.

A good part of the reason why Khrushchev chose the path of de-stalinisation and of loosening the rule somewhat was that he had only just come out victorious of an internal struggle because he needed all the allies he could get. However, the brutal suppression of the uprisings against Soviet occupation in Hungary and Poland happened under his rule; Stalin was already dead by then.
With time, all dictatorships grow more lax. Doesn't excuse what happened before, though.

Finally, before I suggest we return to the original topic, I'd like to ask people that we're not talking comic books here. Can we leave the word "evil" out of a historical discussion, please? Countries aren't evil. People can be (though I wouldn't use the word in a factual discussion either, it's a rather, well, mythological term, and therefore, IMO, misplaced), but nobody is "pure evil". I suggest a more objective term, like (war) criminal.

Enough of that. Back to Colossus.

Thank you for explaining me my view of history, it is much appreciated. It's not like Hitler signed a non-aggression pact with the Soviets and then attacked. He would never do the same thing to his weakened wartime allies, that would be just cruel.

I'm not even going to touch the Nazi apologism in the first paragraph. However what I would like to mention is that Marxism-Leninism has nothing to do with nationalistic ideology. Stalin twisted it to suit his psychopathic ideas, but as I might be stating for the tenth time, he was evil. I know you won't let me call Nazi Germany evil, but could I at least have Stalin? Please?

I understand that in your view of the USSR even the Khrushchev Thaw had to have ulterior motives, but maybe it is a bit of both, the desire not only to consolidate power but also to ease the suffering of the Soviet people. In general I think you could benefit from more grey approach to the USSR and perhaps history in general (except Nazis, **** them.) I could recommend you a few non-Western sources for USSR history to help you understand the period better.

Unknown

gazgaz wrote:

I've never been a fan of censorship, but eh, I guess as long as you are offended, you are right. Goodbye

Company policy is not censorship. That this forum even exists is proof of that. D3 has every right to do whatever they want to, as you have every right to **** about it. They reviewed the issue, and decided to go with another icon. That's not censorship any more than deciding to go with another power for C.Mags is.

http://xkcd.com/1357/

If it bothers you that much, there's the door.

Unknown

I will take "Misunderstanding the issue" for 400, Alex. Gameplay balance vs. a character's symbol. I see quoting xkcd is as edgy as it was in 2007.

Anyway, the decision has been made, so no point to argue anymore. I'm gonna go find that door back to General Discussion .

Unknown

gazgaz wrote:

I've never been a fan of censorship, but eh, I guess as long as you are offended, you are right. Goodbye

They are changing their own product; not censorships

Unknown

They are changing their own product as they are well within their rights to do so. However, that change probably wouldn't happen if users of the forum wouldn't point out that communist symbol can be offensive to some of the people.

Dauthi

Pylgrim wrote:

I'm sorry but you surely have to be aware that the USSR was comprised of (in most cases) forcefully annexed territories. Removing a game icon is not anyone implying that it was "evil" more than history does. There is a reason why the USSR doesn't exist anymore. Moreover, the H&S is not even the full flag of your native country, but rather the emblem of the very much bloodstained (and ultimately failed) communist revolution. There's no reason for you to feel sad or insulted by its removal from the game.

This is pretty funny. History is depicted by those who "won". The USSR doesn't exist not because it was wrong, but because it lost (I am not saying it's goals were right either, however if they had won history would have painted it as "right"). Do you think the US flag is not bloodstained? What do you consider bloodstained?

It isn't about right or wrong, it is about intentions. Communism is not inherently "bad", it is is an idea those who trumpeted had hoped would help the world, like Colossus.

gazgaz wrote:

I'm not even going to touch the Nazi apologism in the first paragraph. However what I would like to mention is that Marxism-Leninism has nothing to do with nationalistic ideology. Stalin twisted it to suit his psychopathic ideas, but as I might be stating for the tenth time, he was evil. I know you won't let me call Nazi Germany evil, but could I at least have Stalin? Please?

Exactly, there is no connection between Communism and Fascism, in fact they were deadly opponents of each other, one of Hitler's first actions was to eliminate all communist/socialist factions in the country. Fascism isn't even technically a form of government, and any connection is made by the leaders in the current form of government. Any government can fall into Fascism in this manner.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

Mahabone wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

I wanted to give you another update regarding the in-game symbol for Colossus.

After much discussion, we have decided to change and replace the current symbol to something that better represents this epic hero. We do not yet have a firm date for when the change will occur, but we hope to have the new symbol in-game within the next few weeks.

Thank you for your patience as we work to implement the change.

Yet the game makers still decided to add a giant one in Reel Steel instead of just a red ball.

Impossible to change at this point, unfortunately. That particular graphic is client side.

Thank you for explaining that.

Unknown

arktos1971 wrote:

The problem is not Russia. The problem is Poutin now. Trying to revive the old USSR and controlling several countries with Gazprom and Russia's ground.

He turned the country into dictatorship, putting opposing people to silence. Homophobia, no freedom of speech...

And here you are continuing to throw baseless insults that got stuffed in your empty head by your MSM. Do you even think for yourself at all? I happened to live under USSR, "new" West-endorsed Yeltsin rule and Putin. You know what, stuff your idiocy about Putin being a problem somewhere dark. I dislike him and have many qualms about many things he does, but when you look at Russian stats its worlds apart from disaster that were US-endorsed "effective managers" in 9x. As to things you've listed, they're all lies. Nobody cares about gays, liberast lies are rampart in "opposition" press and nobody can do anything precisely because of "freedom of speech". Did you read YOUR VERSION of BAD BAD Russia in your favorite newspaper?

arktos1971 wrote:

The revival of old communism and USSR is not something to be hoped for. And the symbol just revives this and looks weird to people like me. Is it right, is it wrong ? It just feels strange to me.

Why? Sorry, but when, say, prices don't move even one cent for 10 years - people tend to be happy. That's how it was with USSR. Let me tell you why, your government that wishes to be a single world cop around is afraid that there will be somebody who could always block them. That's why your MSMs are hysterically spouting rivers of propaganda about USSR being bad. About strong Russia being bad. Of course you gladly eat it without thinking. Let's run a smiple experiment: say what USSR did good (except WW2 and first man in space, because that's just too common knowledge). When you understand that you know no good thinks, wonder how did that happen that your education doesn't include good things over 80 years, only bad ones? Finally when you realize that you know nothing, tell me why you should have any moral right to insult country and culture you know nothing about?

arktos1971 wrote:

There is no need to compare what the human mankind has done worst all over history and the zillions of people killed and slaughtered. Each ex-colonist country has blood on its hands (France included, this is where I am from).

I don't know why the Russian citizens (like Otersey) took the whole thing so badly, they probably did not live under the "old" regime.

Uh, you agree that you country is not better, but you STILL can't understand why people could be offended when from ALL COUNTIRES that had its bad pages in history ONE IS SINGLED OUT and told "we need to erase you"? Or are you insisting that Soviet Russia is somehow much much more bad than your country, miseur descendant of people who burned Moscow?

This is not about communism at all. H&S is 80 years of our history that had much more good than bad. Trying to say otherwise you're personally spitting on people and their ancestors who happily lived here.

Unknown

Malcoran wrote:

Also for me killing innocents is pure evil, it doesnt matter if theyre Jews, Polish soldier, Czech professor.

Good to hear that! Well, let's campaign together for removing stars and stripes from MPQ, because US bombed millions of innocents (no, that's not random words, look up Iraq/Afganistan/Lybia civilian death toll on wiki) in just last decade.

I hope you're not a HYPOCRITE, right?

Unknown

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hello everyone,

I wanted to give you another update regarding the in-game symbol for Colossus.

After much discussion, we have decided to change and replace the current symbol to something that better represents this epic hero. We do not yet have a firm date for when the change will occur, but we hope to have the new symbol in-game within the next few weeks.

Thank you for your patience as we work to implement the change.

So, D3 wishes to spit at Russian history as much as any other hater all to please people who stroking their national ego following their MSM propaganda that "everything bad that's happened to world or your country is because of evil Soviets". Ok, time to throw this piece of news to Russian forums.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

This is pretty funny. History is depicted by those who "won". The USSR doesn't exist not because it was wrong, but because it lost (I am not saying it's goals were right either, however if they had won history would have painted it as "right"). Do you think the US flag is not bloodstained? What do you consider bloodstained?

It isn't about right or wrong, it is about intentions. Communism is not inherently "bad", it is is an idea those who trumpeted had hoped would help the world, like Colossus.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The intention to eradicate inherited disorders can end with a lovely eugenics program with things like forced sterilization. Good intentions should not & cannot excuse the evil the USSR perpetuated...the USSR did some pretty nasty stuff (including its own attempt at genocide), and its effect is still being felt (as Putin thinks he can go into the Ukraine and take a chunk of it, and the world does very little about it. We should all count our lucky stars that the Ukraine gave up their nukes)... & the difference between the us &the USSR is that the US is still around and can try and do better (yeh yeh I know what a mess they are right now, but I hold out hope they will do better. call me an optimist)...


And what is more, it isn't a defining characteristics of colossus, he could be everything he is if he came from France or Russia. There is no need to link him with the hammer & sickle (and besides would work a lot better for omega red)

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

So, D3 wishes to spit at Russian history as much as any other hater all to please people who stroking their national ego following their MSM propaganda that "everything bad that's happened to world or your country is because of evil Soviets". Ok, time to throw this piece of news to Russian forums.

At risk of feeding your persecution complex, but no one here is blaming the entire worlds ills on the USSR. They did do some bad things, not unlike other countries, but this thread is about this symbol from that particular country. That is why it is being talked about.

Unknown

This is a long thread, and I don't know if it's been mentioned but: if Piotr Rasputin was canonically in his late teens or early 20's when Giant Size X-Men #1 was published, his birthdate would be in the 1950's.

His age is clearly no older than his early 20's as of now, meaning he'd have to be older than 23 to have even been alive in Soviet Russia. He very definitely didn't grow up there. He's not Soviet at all.

For Luke Cage to be young-ish now, he can't ever have worn that '70's lapel number. Ditto for Dazzler to have been roller disco. Johnny Storm is still young. He definitely wasn't an astronaut in 1961. Time clearly has moved on, carrying these characters' birthdates with it. Only the ageless ones can stay fixed in time: Wolverine, Apocalypse, Sinister, Captain America. And even Cap can't have been pulled out of the water in the 60's. That happened a few years ago.

Anyways, the Soviets are long gone, and Colossus had to have grown up post-Soviet, anyways. So no hammer and sickle.