Use of sensitive symbols in MPQ - 'Colossus'

Wolarsen

First of all, this is a great thread, and with only couple exceptions very nicely discussed and moderated (good job David).

I was surprised the first time I saw the colossus MPQ symbol, because i find it very loosely representative of him. I would no doubt replace it, if only for flavour reason.

Depicting a character by its origin/nationality sounds too cheap, with few exceptions. If Marvel (mind NOT Demiurge!) defines a character with a direct, strong link to a symbol it would make sense to use that symbol, some examples.
* Guardian/Vindicator is well represented by a canadian red oak leaf; Sasquatch, Puck, Wolverine aren't.
* Captain america cannot be represented by other way than with his shield star spangled banner theme. You could argue using the USA flag for Nick Fury, for example (was a smooth move from Marvel to use SHIELD instead of real american agencies), but would be a poor choice for the miriad of american characters (Ghost rider? Mister Fantastic? Iron man?)
* Omega red, and way before him Titanium man and Crimsom Dynamo, would be well represented by the hammer and sickle; Colossus, even with internal doubts sometimes, has never acted directly in behalf of the soviet system as far as I know. I's use something like an iron tower, hand or arm. Go listen MacCartney's "Magneto and titanim man" song now, btw.
* Red skull could use a swastika, but a german flag would be completely off; neither would the german flag fit Nightcrawler (and you cannot make thim more german!).
* Captain Britannia is not directly linked to the british Union Jack; guess what, Union Jack character actually is!

As someone posted already, I understand that a person can be bothered by certaing politics/symbols/countries/beliefs, but he would be bothered in the first place with the character it represents; and you can not really ask Captain America to be removed because of your dislike with USA policies. If there's a valid alternative, try to not hit the hive if possible (I'd choose a red cranium icon instead of a swastika for the mentioned Red Skull, for example).

hurcules

dragma wrote:

nunberry wrote:

Reminder to the Devs

Depending on how the Scottish independance vote goes today, be very careful about using the Union Jack as a symbol for Captain Britain, should you introduce him at a later date....

The problem with that is that is his symbol, well currently, they could co with the loinesk image that use to be displayed.

Heck if they use Banshee, I hope they use a shamrock for his symbol.

Nope

Unknown

eris-wtga wrote:

Most people aren't aware that Stalin tried to ethnically cleanse the ethinic Ukrainians back in the 30s, starving up to 10 million people (one reason that ppl may have issues)...

Those "aware" of the stupidity you just wrote should really check history books, including western ones. Golodomor, "privatized" by Ukrainian nationalists in last two decades, was USSR wide problem stemming from poor management. It killed more people outside of Ukraine and it never intended to be cleansing, just very stupid decision to manually micromanage every bit of harvest.

This above and other continued repeating of "bad things", "consists of annexed territories" and "don't exists for a reason" in this thread is shining example of being spot on that west indeed taught to fear and hate Russia from childhood. Of course nobody writes in your textbooks "hate them!" - one twisted fact here, other there and here you are: by your 20s you know that those are inherently bad guys. Events of this year is no different. Armed coup? Nazi in Kiev? Crimea, after 20 years repeatedly trying to flee from Ukraine breaks off and goes home? EVIL RUSSKIES, here's your sanctions!

Also check this out:

rowaasr13 wrote:

Considering USA bombing millions into fine red pasta in just last decade, 90% of the game heroes should be censored, but thankfully most people are simply realistic. Please keep your nazi fantasies to yourself.

This post got -8 right now? Hello, hypocrites!

Sorry people, but so far you only proved that your heads is full of high grade propaganda.
The moment H&S is removed from game for "sensitivity" reasons while keeping stars and stripes with it, I guess will be the moment to move this "discussion" to some Russian forums. If people want some CoH2 fame (look it up how it fared in Russia) - they will have it.

Unknown

You know what, it's a historical fact that the regime under Lenin and Stalin committed plenty of crimes. You can look it up in Russian history books too. Denying that is like denying the holocaust ever happened. There is no need to discuss that.

Also, how about learning to distinguish between criticism and/or resentment aimed at a country or people on the one hand and criticism and/or resentment aimed at a regime and its symbol on the other? In this thread, representing Colossus with the symbol of a totalitarian regime is being criticised. Nobody, however, has taken up issue with Colossus being Russian, because guess what? I think we can savely say everybody here is perfectly fine with him being Russian, just like they are perfectly fine with Black Widow - a hugely popular character in the Marvel universe, btw - being Russian.

For the record, I have certain misgivings about Captain America's - for my taste - rather chauvinistic origin, so much so that I refused to watch the first movie when it came out. I did eventually see it, though, and appreciated that he wasn't portrayed as the "my country right or wrong" bigot they might have turned him into.
And yes, I do have certain misgivings about US foreign policy and harbour a strong dislike for most Republican politicians. But do I insult the USA as a whole because of that, the entire country and its citizens? No. Because I can distinguish between those things. You would get a lot less downvotes if you did that too.

Also, you might want to open up your ears in your own native country. I know several Russians who would find your - for lack of a better term - revisionist propaganda downright distasteful and insulting.

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

eris-wtga wrote:

Most people aren't aware that Stalin tried to ethnically cleanse the ethinic Ukrainians back in the 30s, starving up to 10 million people (one reason that ppl may have issues)...

Those "aware" of the stupidity you just wrote should really check history books, including western ones. Golodomor, "privatized" by Ukrainian nationalists in last two decades, was USSR wide problem stemming from poor management. It killed more people outside of Ukraine and it never intended to be cleansing, just very stupid decision to manually micromanage every bit of harvest.

This above and other continued repeating of "bad things", "consists of annexed territories" and "don't exists for a reason" in this thread is shining example of being spot on that west indeed taught to fear and hate Russia from childhood. Of course nobody writes in your textbooks "hate them!" - one twisted fact here, other there and here you are: by your 20s you know that those are inherently bad guys. Events of this year is no different. Armed coup? Nazi in Kiev? Crimea, after 20 years repeatedly trying to flee from Ukraine breaks off and goes home? EVIL RUSSKIES, here's your sanctions!

Also check this out:

rowaasr13 wrote:

Considering USA bombing millions into fine red pasta in just last decade, 90% of the game heroes should be censored, but thankfully most people are simply realistic. Please keep your nazi fantasies to yourself.

This post got -8 right now? Hello, hypocrites!

Sorry people, but so far you only proved that your heads is full of high grade propaganda.
The moment H&S is removed from game for "sensitivity" reasons while keeping stars and stripes with it, I guess will be the moment to move this "discussion" to some Russian forums. If people want some CoH2 fame (look it up how it fared in Russia) - they will have it.

What I don't like about posts is that you generalize your opinion about someone to everyone else. When you mention "your textbooks" and "you are raised..." you generalize your opinions and you claim that everyone somehow hates Russia.

I have not seen any direct accuse against Russia. USSR is not current Russia. And if you think that people posting here have a problem with Russia, you are being ridiculous. Even if they did, this is the wrong place to bring it up. I don't care where you are from, but I find your tone in your posts very offensive.

History is history and you cannot change it. People have suffered in the past and if TRUE history facts are mentioned here, it does not mean that people hate ACTUAL Russia. You will do everyone a favor if you stop trying to rebel and start some kind of Russian revolution in here. People are sharing fruitful opinions and many other are actually learning parts of history.

Accusing anyone of being a Russian hater is plain offensive and uncalled for. 90% of the topic is connected to how Colossus symbol is sensitive to several people. You are the only one completely ignoring this conversation and claiming that we all hate Russia. You should try to understand that other people have feelings and opinions and that history is interpreted differently by everyone. So keep your accusations to yourself and please try to contribute positively in this thread!

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

This above and other continued repeating of "bad things", "consists of annexed territories" and "don't exists for a reason" in this thread is shining example of being spot on that west indeed taught to fear and hate Russia from childhood. Of course nobody writes in your textbooks "hate them!" - one twisted fact here, other there and here you are: by your 20s you know that those are inherently bad guys. Events of this year is no different. Armed coup? Nazi in Kiev? Crimea, after 20 years repeatedly trying to flee from Ukraine breaks off and goes home? EVIL RUSSKIES, here's your sanctions!

So are you denying that the Soviet Union made a treaty with the Nazis to divide up Poland, and that both countries invaded Poland in September 1939?

Enoc99

On the subject of Captain America as representing a country, I really like the way Marvel has portrayed him.

I will not claim to be the all-knowing entity on comic books, as I have only read a small sampling of the great collection that is Marvel, but from what I have seen, Captain America is a good representation of what Steve Rogers feels America *should* be, rather than what it, in many ways, actually is. If Captain America were in D&D, his alignment would be Neutral Good. He supports freedom, and the rights of every individual, American or otherwise. He has even fought against his own government and allies in cases under which he felt they were in the wrong. Captain America fights for what he considers to be the American ideals, as opposed to the agenda of the American government. His symbols in this game, to me, more represent his costume as opposed to symbols of the American government. Personally, as an American, I feel many of our actions (both recent as historically) are reprehensible... but I don't want to get into that in this thread as it is off topic from this discussion.

I think that the icons used for the characters should be significant to that character. When I think of Wolverine, the first things I think of are his hairstyle and his claws, so use of his claws for his icon is appropriate. For Black Widow, her Widow symbol is the first thing I think of. For Loki, I think of his helmet. For Thor, his hammer. For Iron Man, his Arc Reactor. For Juggernaut, his helmet. For Doctor Doom, his Mask (which is what I think his symbol is? Can't tell). For Beast, I think of books, so I feel that an open book would have felt more accurate, but their choice of a Beaker is still appropriate for him. For Colossus, his metal fists or even just his organic-metal skin are what I think of... which is why I was confused as to the icon they chose, as it doesn't feel truly representative of who he is.

It honestly does feel lazy. I personally am not offended by the choice of the symbol. A symbol is only as powerful as people think it is. But the use of that symbol for Colossus just doesn't seem representative of the character.

Zen808

First off, I'd like to say that, for the most part, this thread has been mostly civil, and often informative. That is to say, unlike 99% of the internet. Bravo to you guys! This is why I'm happy to participate in the MPQ forums.

Next, a lot of people are making the point that the hammer and sickle does not represent Colossus. But I wonder, if the devs were to ask Colossus himself which symbol he'd like to use, would he have chosen the H&S? I don't know for sure, because I'm not a heavy comic book reader. However, based on what others have said about his personality, it is possible that he would have.

Take it a step further. Based on what others have said of his personality, he sounds like the type that would willingly stop using the symbol once he found out how much conflict it was causing.

Just a little food for thought.

LordWill

When I first saw this post, I really wanted to voice my opinion but decided to wait and really reflect on how other people see this.

Intellectually I can understand why people may have a problem with this symbol. Subjectively (My viewpoint) I think people (in general) can be offended with just about anything and have become overly sensitive almost to the point its ridiculous.

This is a game, its all fantasy based. I don't take it too seriously. I don't think there was any ulterior motive when they designed the icons.

I always try and look at the bigger picture and try and put things in context.

So I am cool if they want to change the icon, or leave it the way it is. Its a game. I play it and have fun. I have found that if my skin is too thin, I will be unhappy with everything in life, and life is too short to let that happen.

This is just my opinion, I am not trying to be insensitive to others (I'm really not).

Unknown

I started to have fun in this thread. It is so amusing to see so many blind and hypocrite people who squeal "it is not about Russia" or say that they don't hate it, and insult its history in the same post. Who could've guessed that good ol' Soviet propaganda about Western hate, who was laughed at here back then because of its crudeness, was 100% right all along?

I don't doubt that there were enough bad things done by it in those 80 years - just as much as pretty much any big country at the same time, but when you say that "everything about those 80 years was bad and its symbols must be erased" - you're plain haters. Take a good look at the mirror.

Sorry to burst you bubble, but we, people of Russia, ARE the same people of USSR. Name changed, some people went their own ways to have their own states, but the rest here in Russia is those born in it and people won't take lightly to somebody insisting their birthplace and culture is bad and must be erased.

Nonce Equitaur 2

rowaasr13 wrote:

It is so amusing to see so many blind and hypocrite people who squeal ...

Beginning of an argument from weakness.

rowaasr13 wrote:

Did you bother to look at that page? Here it is, in the third row, directly from Marvel wikia

Beginning of an argument from strength.

See the difference? In the second, you nailed me. I was wrong, and you didn't need to add any fighting words. You won the argument without needing to add insults.

The limit for negative rep is -50, and you're just a few points shy of that. Needless insults aren't going to help your arguments, and they'll just insure that all of them vanish if you hit -50. If you'd like your discussions to stay around, you should tone down some of the global insults.

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

So are you denying that the Soviet Union made a treaty with the Nazis to divide up Poland, and that both countries invaded Poland in September 1939?

Since you mention this I will comment more as well.

Ribbentrop - Molotow pact was much more, it was including annexing countries like Finland, Baltic countries, Romania and dividing them into Germany and Soviet "spheres of influence". And although decision about invasion of Poland was probably decided already its pretty obvious it made things easier. So knowing this I will comment...

HailMary wrote:

Both the OP and rowaasr13 have good points.

While offense due to political history should be a real cause for concern, the hammer and sickle is a more politically complex symbol (in the West) than the Nazi swastika. Russia was definitely one of the good guys in WWII. The number of Russians who died fighting Germany boggles the mind (they declared war against Imperial Japan, as well).

...one of the most ignorant post Ive ever seen. Russia was one of the aggressors during WWII, calling them "good guys" is insane and ahistorical. They were only fighting against Germans cause they betrayed them and attacked during Operation Barbarossa. Russia was breaking treaties, committing mass murders and ethnic cleansings. Dont have idea where you learn about "good guy" SU

Finally I dont understand how former USSR citizen can be insulted cause this tread or by comparing them to Nazi Germans. You were victims of your own goverment as well, just in Great Purge few millions lost their lives...Several countries were practically occupied for over 50 years by SU, repressions, censoring, executions, military interventions were common things those dark days. You (SU government) were worse than Germans for few countries. Thats why this symbol means years of slavery to some peoples. But ofc you shouldnt take it personal, especially when we are living in "civilized" world and it should be obvious for anyone that your nationality isnt determine you as human...there are only good and bad peoples, it doesnt matter where are they come from.

Unknown

Malcoran wrote:

Finally I dont understand how former USSR citizen can be insulted cause this tread or by comparing them to Nazi Germans.

Comparing Stalin to Hitler is one thing, there can be a strong case made for that. Comparing USSR to Nazi Germany is just appalling.

Unknown

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

rowaasr13 wrote:

It is so amusing to see so many blind and hypocrite people who squeal ...

Beginning of an argument from weakness.

Yawn, very first OP's very insulting post is sporting +20 right now, as well as many others in this thread, including a direct expletive insult to me which moderator later requested to be edited out. Go ahead, explain that, if you insist on ignoring my take on discussion which fits actual facts I see here pretty well.

I kinda don't care about vanishing. I'm not here to win contest in popularity for nazionalistic bigots.

Unknown

gazgaz wrote:

Comparing Stalin to Hitler is one thing, there can be a strong case made for that. Comparing USSR to Nazi Germany is just appalling.

Can you explain it more? Its pretty hard to answer when you didnt write anything specific.

HailMary

Malcoran wrote:

HailMary wrote:

Both the OP and rowaasr13 have good points.

While offense due to political history should be a real cause for concern, the hammer and sickle is a more politically complex symbol (in the West) than the Nazi swastika. Russia was definitely one of the good guys in WWII. The number of Russians who died fighting Germany boggles the mind (they declared war against Imperial Japan, as well).

...one of the most ignorant post Ive ever seen. Russia was one of the aggressors during WWII, calling them "good guys" is insane and ahistorical. They were only fighting against Germans cause they betrayed them and attacked during Operation Barbarossa. Russia was breaking treaties, committing mass murders and ethnic cleansings. Dont have idea where you learn about "good guy" SU

Russia was one of the "good guys" in WWII only as far as any of the major Allied powers were one of the "good guys." Let's not forget that the Allied powers actively appeased Germany when it wanted Austria and Czechoslovakia, or that the US denied asylum to Holocaust refugees until well into WWII, or imprisoned Japanese-Americans simply because they were Japanese, or that the Treaty of Paris conveniently **** China (who'd essentially been fighting WWII since 1937), or that Allied and Nazi troops alike **** their way across occupied territories, ...or the French gov't.

So, while I might disagree with your professional psychiatric diagnosis, though I thank you for generously providing it completely free of charge, Russia being a "good guy" may indeed be a mischaracterization... but only if calling many of the major Allied powers "good guys" is similarly a mischaracterization.

Unknown

Malcoran wrote:

gazgaz wrote:

Comparing Stalin to Hitler is one thing, there can be a strong case made for that. Comparing USSR to Nazi Germany is just appalling.

Can you explain it more? Its pretty hard to answer when you didnt write anything specific.

You're just trolling right? Trying to get people riled up for your amusement? .. I hope. Please don't tell me you are actually serious.

Once again, I am in no way denying the atrocities committed by the USSR and once again, Stalin's regime in comparable to Hitler's. However, the USSR is so much more that just Stalin murdering innocents. Nazi Germany was a fascist regime bent on genocide and world domination. They have murdered 6 million Jews (I hope you are not one of the deniers) and other minorities as well as countless European soldiers and civilian populations. Also, that particular regime had almost no scientific(except with military applications) and zero cultural achievements. The fascist regime existed for one thing only - world domination through war and genocide.

Stalin died in 1953. After him there was at least 40 more years of USSR history. I understand that you are probably American (apologies if you are not), so you are not necessarily aware, but so much progress, both scientific and cultural can be attributed to the collaboration that existed in the USSR. Education was improved tremendously, healthcare was more accessible, housing was improved, roads were constructed across member states... Yes there were failures in central planning, racism against Caucasians, famines, censorship and regional conflicts. What I am trying to say is that USSR was not pure evil, unlike Nazi Germany. I seriously cannot believe I am making this argument.

Were satellite states such as Czechoslovakia and Romania treated harshly and unjustly with support of USSR? Absolutely, but the scope and the brutality is just not comparable. There is a difference between repression, secret police and **** genocide. Genocide. Genocide. Do you understand this word?

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

Russia was one of the "good guys" in WWII only as far as any of the major Allied powers were one of the "good guys." Let's not forget that the Allied powers actively appeased Germany when it wanted Austria and Czechoslovakia, or that the US denied asylum to Holocaust refugees until well into WWII, or imprisoned Japanese-Americans simply because they were Japanese, or that the Treaty of Paris conveniently **** China (who'd essentially been fighting WWII since 1937), or that Allied and Nazi troops alike **** their way across occupied territories, ...or the French gov't.

So, while I might disagree with your professional psychiatric diagnosis, though I thank you for generously providing it completely free of charge, Russia being a "good guy" may indeed be a mischaracterization... but only if calling many of the major Allied powers "good guys" is similarly a mischaracterization.

Well, if we are thinking this way you can add practically broking England and France alliances with Poland (declaring war and sitting in trenches instead military help) or Yalta conference, where Churchill and Roosevelt "gave" Poland with few other countries to Russia. Hell, dont forget bout Poland taking Zaolzie! But do you seriously think you can compare all countries and put everyone in same basket? Cause for me its pretty exaggerating.

gazgaz wrote:

...

Both SU and Nazi Germany wanted world domination so they could introduce they "awesome" ideals. Both were using all available methods, Germans were expanding politically as well, not only through wars. Holocaust wasnt a way to world domination for sure, I think you didnt mean this. And well, Chechens deportation was acknowledged as genocide, few scientist claiming that actions against Poles during Great Purge were genocide as well. And comparing their "achievements" doesnt make sense to me, fortunately Nazi Germany werent existing so long but its pretty obvious they would be developing as well if they had a chance. Also for me killing innocents is pure evil, it doesnt matter if theyre Jews, Polish soldier, Czech professor.

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

rowaasr13 wrote:

Considering USA bombing millions into fine red pasta in just last decade, 90% of the game heroes should be censored, but thankfully most people are simply realistic. Please keep your nazi fantasies to yourself.

Negative rep? Little US murderers got their bloodthirsty butts hurt?

People talking about Soviets somehow "tarnishing it", please tell me how many times you were in Russia at all? If it is 0, kindly vacate this thread and wash your brain from propaganda.

My father was a communist activist for many years. He has been IN the party. My parents visited several countries of the communist block in the 70s. Until they found out what the party truly was.

The problem is NOT the Russians at all, a people who has suffered like no other in history, and who is still suffering.

The problem is not Russia. The problem is Poutin now. Trying to revive the old USSR and controlling several countries with Gazprom and Russia's ground.

He turned the country into dictatorship, putting opposing people to silence. Homophobia, no freedom of speech...

The revival of old communism and USSR is not something to be hoped for. And the symbol just revives this and looks weird to people like me. Is it right, is it wrong ? It just feels strange to me.

There is no need to compare what the human mankind has done worst all over history and the zillions of people killed and slaughtered. Each ex-colonist country has blood on its hands (France included, this is where I am from).

I don't know why the Russian citizens (like Otersey) took the whole thing so badly, they probably did not live under the "old" regime.

If you were offended, I'm sorry for that. I have several friends in Russia, and I have no problems with people who have communist ideas.

To each his own.

Unknown

Malcoran wrote:

Both SU and Nazi Germany wanted world domination so they could introduce they "awesome" ideals. Both were using all available methods, Germans were expanding politically as well, not only through wars. Holocaust wasnt a way to world domination for sure, I think you didnt mean this. And well, Chechens deportation was acknowledged as genocide, few scientist claiming that actions against Poles during Great Purge were genocide as well. And comparing their "achievements" doesnt make sense to me, fortunately Nazi Germany werent existing so long but its pretty obvious they would be developing as well if they had a chance. Also for me killing innocents is pure evil, it doesnt matter if theyre Jews, Polish soldier, Czech professor.

The Holocaust was definitely a part of their grand world domination plan, how else are you going to populate the entire world with Aryns if you do not kill everyone else first?

Both the Chechen deportation and the Great Purge were during Stalin's time. It is almost as if you did not read my post. Then again, it might have been all "..." to you with your worldview .