Use of sensitive symbols in MPQ - 'Colossus'

Unknown

I came in here excited for the first logical debate these forums have seen and I wasn't disappointed.

I like many others on these forums am a male from the US in my mid to late 20's. When I saw the symbol I didn't think too much about it but I would like if I wasn't taken aback a bit. For someone my age, where I am from the symbol is nothing more that a dark period of history. While I was never effected by this and the majority of the Cold War was over by my birth I can easily understand how that could upset people especially Europeans directly effected by the USSR.

I do find it incredibly typical for these board to see someome like rowaasr13 and completely debase many people's feelings on real topic. While this is a game based upon fiction it does have roots in real world affairs, much of which are some of the darkest parts in history. He is likely a teenager that has never had to deal with anything like the adversity the people upset about this have. I just can't understand at what point a switch flips in your brain to attack and troll people who are merely expressing their feelings in a very calm and constructive way vs most of the whining and complaining done here.

So in summation I completely understand where most of you are coming from and I support your cause. As for rowaasr13 on the other hand... he can go step on a lego.

Unknown

I do find it incredibly typical for "free" and "democratic" "the Americans are exceptional" übermensch to go around and brand anybody who doesn't takes well when his homeland is smeared with insults an *now edited out expletive*.

If you didn't quite grasp the rest of stuff I wrote, I WAS BORN AND LIVED good part of my life in "darkest part of YOUR history", the "evil oppressive land" (in the mind of one who "was never effected by this and the majority of the Cold War was over by my birth", but still 100% adamant those Red guys are EEEEEEEVIL) and rest of insults thrown in this pathetic thread. So it is not up to some eagle-brained cowboy to lecture me on what I had to deal with while spewing out all the propaganda bile he was stuffed with through years.

Unknown

turul wrote:

i am from Hungary, where it was also prohibited earlier

Well, your Constituional Court was wise enough to understand that ban was stupid and lift it. So why this stupidity should be repeated anywhere else?

zonatahunt

C'mon guys, the thread will likely be locked soon if the insults continue to fly. It's completely aparrent the views of a few on here, so let's tone it down the the sake of discussion.

HailMary

Both the OP and rowaasr13 have good points.

While offense due to political history should be a real cause for concern, the hammer and sickle is a more politically complex symbol (in the West) than the Nazi swastika. Russia was definitely one of the good guys in WWII. The number of Russians who died fighting Germany boggles the mind (they declared war against Imperial Japan, as well). Let's also keep in mind that Marvel comics are often heavily influenced by the politics of their era. Captain America battled "evil" from a very American perspective. Let's not pretend that those "old-school values" he champions are somehow geopolitically "neutral."

The fact of the matter is (according to the Marvel wiki, at least) that Colossus has a deep Russian background, and he's very much a good guy. It makes as much sense to change his symbol due to insult-by-association as it does to change Captain America's because a Japanese person is insulted by MPQ proudly using the symbol of the only nation on Earth that's ever nuked another country (possibly just to flex its muscles, at that). At least Good Guy Colossus isn't called The Russian Fist.

Unknown

zonatahunt wrote:

C'mon guys, the thread will likely be locked soon if the insults continue to fly. It's completely aparrent the views of a few on here, so let's tone it down the the sake of discussion.

I apologize. I know my post makes me no better than him but I just couldn't not say something.

HailMary

ImBrotherCain wrote:

I like many others on these forums am a male from the US in my mid to late 20's... For someone my age, where I am from the symbol is nothing more that a dark period of history. While I was never effected by this and the majority of the Cold War was over by my birth...

He is likely a teenager that has never had to deal with anything like the adversity the people upset about this have. I just can't understand at what point a switch flips in your brain to attack and troll people who are merely expressing their feelings in a very calm and constructive way vs most of the whining and complaining done here.

So in summation I completely understand where most of you are coming from and I support your cause. As for rowaasr13 on the other hand... he can go step on a lego.

The colossal hypocrisy in this comment really doesn't reflect well upon the rest of us Americans in our 20s.

h4n1s

rowaasr13 wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Conversation and opinion is welcomed. Please keep your comments respectful of others and refrain from insults.

Well, I see insult to Russia right in the OP's rant.

No insult to Russia or individuals living in Russia is/was intended nor stated. I myself have employed and even consider friends few Russians...

Unknown

This has echoes of the recent spider woman cover debacle. There is nothing inherently offensive about the symbol of the Soviet Union. It's certainly not any more offensive than a confederate flag.

You can say any symbol is offensive. To many, the American flag itself is a symbol of oppression and destruction. The entire concept of the x-men is built around the fight against prejudice and often seen as an allegory for how though it is to be a homossexual in today's society. There are plenty of groups that would find this entire concept repugnant.

I think it would be silly to say that this specific symbol is any more offensive than any other. If it's changed, I hope Moon Knight is never released, since I bet there would be people accusing d3 of siding with terrorists as soon as a tile fell by Steve Rogers tile.

Unknown

I read your post as "those evil Reds are plague and should not be allowed in WW game as good guys". Tell me where I'm wrong.

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

This has echoes of the recent spider woman cover debacle. There is nothing inherently offensive about the symbol of the Soviet Union. It's certainly not any more offensive than a confederate flag.

I used to be a Cold War historian, so here's my take on all of this.

The Confederate battle flag that tends to get called out was explicitly brought back by the ****, so there's a pretty good reason people take offense. It was not the national flag of the CSA, and its use was very closely tied explicitly with the **** after 1865.

I take it the original poster is probably from one of the nations that the Soviets were really brutal against. Poland was probably treated the worst; the Soviets divided it up with the Nazis (see the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty for further information) and both invaded September 1, 1939, only the Soviets occupied it for most of the next 50 years. Hungary and Czechoslovakia (and others, including Poland again) had movements for self-rule brutally crushed by the Soviets, and numerous other nations were occupied for most of the period from 1945-1989.

I'll admit, if they're from the former Yugoslavia, that's all Tito's fault.

That being said, the Soviet Union was not, and is not, Russia, and (in many cases, justified) criticism of their actions is not the same as insulting Russia. The Soviet Union is an extinct political entity, and has been for almost 25 years. While I can understand wanting to defend the honor of your own country, criticism of the history of oppression by the Soviet Union is not inherently criticism of Russia.

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

ark123 wrote:

This has echoes of the recent spider woman cover debacle. There is nothing inherently offensive about the symbol of the Soviet Union. It's certainly not any more offensive than a confederate flag.

I used to be a Cold War historian, so here's my take on all of this.

The Confederate battle flag that tends to get called out was explicitly brought back by the ****, so there's a pretty good reason people take offense. It was not the national flag of the CSA, and its use was very closely tied explicitly with the **** after 1865.

I take it the original poster is probably from one of the nations that the Soviets were really brutal against. Poland was probably treated the worst; the Soviets divided it up with the Nazis (see the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty for further information) and both invaded September 1, 1939, only the Soviets occupied it for most of the next 50 years. Hungary and Czechoslovakia (and others, including Poland again) had movements for self-rule brutally crushed by the Soviets, and numerous other nations were occupied for most of the period from 1945-1989.

I'll admit, if they're from the former Yugoslavia, that's all Tito's fault.

That being said, the Soviet Union was not, and is not, Russia, and (in many cases, justified) criticism of their actions is not the same as insulting Russia. The Soviet Union is an extinct political entity, and has been for almost 25 years. While I can understand wanting to defend the honor of your own country, criticism of the history of oppression by the Soviet Union is not inherently criticism of Russia.

My point is that it doesn't matter what some people do with a symbol. They found swastikas I etched into rocks in the shores of Brazil hundreds of years ago, should those etchings not be allowed to be pictured because of the way they were used in the 20th century? I if they are, are those pictures supposed to be considered offensive? Maybe removed because a jew like myself makes a post on the publishers forum?

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

My point is that it doesn't matter what some people do with a symbol. They found swastikas I etched into rocks in the shores of Brazil hundreds of years ago, should those etchings not be allowed to be pictured because of the way they were used in the 20th century? I if they are, are those pictures supposed to be considered offensive? Maybe removed because a jew like myself makes a post on the publishers forum?

I'm not saying anything of the sort, but I think that they're inappropriate for an all-ages match-3 game. I'm not saying stamp them from history; I'm saying that they're a loaded enough symbol that people are going to find them jarring in certain circumstances and it's reasonable to take that into account. If Colossus normally had a big hammer-and-sickle on his chest it would make sense, but he's never had one on any costume I've ever seen set in the regular Marvel Universe.

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

ark123 wrote:

My point is that it doesn't matter what some people do with a symbol. They found swastikas I etched into rocks in the shores of Brazil hundreds of years ago, should those etchings not be allowed to be pictured because of the way they were used in the 20th century? I if they are, are those pictures supposed to be considered offensive? Maybe removed because a jew like myself makes a post on the publishers forum?

I'm not saying anything of the sort, but I think that they're inappropriate for an all-ages match-3 game. I'm not saying stamp them from history; I'm saying that they're a loaded enough symbol that people are going to find them jarring in certain circumstances and it's reasonable to take that into account. If Colossus normally had a big hammer-and-sickle on his chest it would make sense, but he's never had one on any costume I've ever seen set in the regular Marvel Universe.

Uncanny x-men 123 and 124:
http://gobbledygeekbtr.files.wordpress. ... lossus.png

He's also been depicted with a hammer and sicle in his frame dozens of times and has talked about the Soviet Union a ton.

Cragger

rowaasr13 wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]Conversation and opinion is welcomed. Please keep your comments respectful of others and refrain from insults.

Well, I see insult to Russia right in the OP's rant.

You, sir, are the one who is ranting here.

The negative reputation votes are in response to your offensive tone, not your politics.

David may not be willing to moderate your comments, but the community will.

You have earned the distinction of my first "Forum Foe" and thus you will be invisible to me from this moment forward. Anyone who feels similarly should click here http://www.d3pforums.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1830 and click "Add Foe"

Trisul

ark123 wrote:

My point is that it doesn't matter what some people do with a symbol. They found swastikas I etched into rocks in the shores of Brazil hundreds of years ago, should those etchings not be allowed to be pictured because of the way they were used in the 20th century? I if they are, are those pictures supposed to be considered offensive? Maybe removed because a jew like myself makes a post on the publishers forum?

You picked a silly example here to illustrate your point. If you are celebrating Brazil history day and hang up swastikas all along the outside of your house (or even on these forums), you will get some perfectly deserved complaints.

Game developers typically want to shy away from controversy. Picking an alternate symbol (even something generic or dumb) would usually be preferred over any potential of causing bad feelings in any demographic.

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

http://gobbledygeekbtr.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/colossus.png

He's also been depicted with a hammer and sicle in his frame dozens of times and had talked about the Soviet Union a ton.

Wasn't he being mind-controlled there? In any case, that's the equivalent of saying that Spidey's symbol should be the Fantastic Four logo because he wore the Bagman outfit once.

And none of these have anything to do with the central argument which is that the Soviet Union legitimately oppressed people, and is probably too loaded a symbol to be appropriate in a game like this.

theshadeofopal

HailMary wrote:

The colossal hypocrisy in this comment really doesn't reflect well upon the rest of us Americans in our 20s.

I can't tell if this is an intentional pun of not. Either way, bravo.

Anyway, if it offends someone and it takes all of ten minutes to make a new icon, why is this even a conversation.

Also, shouldn't this have been a discussion for when omega red comes out or even actually hammer and sickle? Okay never mind H & S cause they're obscure and stupid but seriously, we are getting Arkady sometime, right?

Unknown

Cragger wrote:

You, sir, are the one who is ranting here.

The negative reputation votes are in response to your offensive tone, not your politics.

David may not be willing to moderate your comments, but the community will.

You have earned the distinction of my first "Forum Foe" and thus you will be invisible to me from this moment forward. Anyone who feels similarly should click here http://www.d3pforums.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1830 and click "Add Foe"

So, positive votes are agreement with "lets spit on Russian past" then? You don't find anything offensive about people writing "this country don't belong on heroes side"? You find it worth of praise? Well, excuse ME for not taking it with pleasure.

"I don't have any sane arguments so I'll pretend you don't exists in my little world full of rainbows, you evil Russki guy". Typical westerner.

Unknown

Did it ever occur to you that "making a new icon" will now offend each and every player fond of Soviet past (yes, guess what!) who'll rightfully see it as spit in their face "you commies are bad, begone from list of heroes"?

BTW, I still didn't get country of that "offended" guy. Any of those Baltic states who proudly run annual SS parades even now or..? The list of rabid anti-Soviet countries isn't that long.