Upcoming Patch R60 Discussion

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  • Typhon13 wrote:
    ark123 wrote:
    cMags is being changed because he's overpowered to a point where he actually creates a different game altogether, where the best players are the ones that can string the most 3 blues in a T shape together. ANYONE who has a magneto with 5 blue and says it feels like it's anywhere near the power level of ANY other character in the game is outright lying. It's straight up broken. So instead of making the blue much more expensive (which creates the famous "Now it's the worst character ever" effect that rag still suffers from), they remade him.
    Blue didn't have to be much more expensive. 8 or 9 would be fine, still can match 5 but requires at least 1 extra match in between, still overwrites tiles, still makes protects. And if what you are saying is true, why did they change his purple? Why did they change the color of his blue instead of just changing his strength from yellow to purple? And sentry+boosts comes damn close to cmags, but if you mean any character purely by themselves I'll give you that one.
    Sentry+boosts is two characters(and it's not just matching greens anymore, since daken was color shifted), I'm not exactly fine with it because Sentry's green is clearly undercosted as well, but cMags is on a whole other level, where you don't actually even really need 2 more characters to kill anyone. You just need blues and time.

    I'm not sure why they chose to remake him completely. Clearly they don't think the "lay multiple tiles of one color" mechanic is broken in general, just this particular implementation of it. Either way, I urge you to try him in this new incarnation before slapping him with the "garbage" tag. I suspect he went from broken minigame to extremely powerful protector/nuker, and quite possibly still top 8-5 three stars.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    Delay.... must milk Magneto as much as possible this weekend icon_e_smile.gif
  • Sim is no prob w this version of cmags...delay all u want D3...
  • It amuses me how some people are on the verge of ranting that the new patch hasn't gone through yet, even though if it HAD gone through, it would have been near the end of a PVP event, and people would have ranted anyway. icon_e_biggrin.gif
  • ark123 wrote:
    Typhon13 wrote:
    ark123 wrote:
    cMags is being changed because he's overpowered to a point where he actually creates a different game altogether, where the best players are the ones that can string the most 3 blues in a T shape together. ANYONE who has a magneto with 5 blue and says it feels like it's anywhere near the power level of ANY other character in the game is outright lying. It's straight up broken. So instead of making the blue much more expensive (which creates the famous "Now it's the worst character ever" effect that rag still suffers from), they remade him.
    Blue didn't have to be much more expensive. 8 or 9 would be fine, still can match 5 but requires at least 1 extra match in between, still overwrites tiles, still makes protects. And if what you are saying is true, why did they change his purple? Why did they change the color of his blue instead of just changing his strength from yellow to purple? And sentry+boosts comes damn close to cmags, but if you mean any character purely by themselves I'll give you that one.
    Sentry+boosts is two characters(and it's not just matching greens anymore, since daken was color shifted), I'm not exactly fine with it because Sentry's green is clearly undercosted as well, but cMags is on a whole other level, where you don't actually even really need 2 more characters to kill anyone. You just need blues and time.

    I'm not sure why they chose to remake him completely. Clearly they don't think the "lay multiple tiles of one color" mechanic is broken in general, just this particular implementation of it. Either way, I urge you to try him in this new incarnation before slapping him with the "garbage" tag. I suspect he went from broken minigame to extremely powerful protector/nuker, and quite possibly still top 8-5 three stars.

    The only person you need Magneto is you don't mind taking a very long time to sit through all his animation. Strike tiles (and any other abilities) just brings that time to something relatively sane.

    The abilities that can overwrite arbitary tile cost at least 11 AP and it only gets rid of one tile, so being able to overwrite 2 tiles for 5 AP is way overpowered. It's a bigger problem for PvE since PvE has much higher frequency of powerful tiles that must be destroyed due to enemies in PvE don't have to be fair. At any rate even if you take something like Deceptive Tactics it roughly gets you an equal amount of green for the purple you spent (sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the layout), so it's a 1 time 1 to 1 deal for AP conversion. Magnetic Field, even when used poorly, can at least convert 1 blue AP to 4 other AP (make a match 4 of blue) and it's self-sustaining until you run out of blue tiles.

    In general AP conversion abilities are inherently problematic because it hamstrings you into making certain conversion impossible, because if there's say an ability that converts green AP to purple AP then you likely have an infinite loop between that and Deceptive Tactics. For the most part they try to keep this in check by making the abilities expensive that by the time you get to a 4 match move like Deceptive Tactics, even if it does somehow end the game, that's not an outrageous amount of power for a 4 match move, and of course it usually comes nowhere close to ending the game anyway. Had they kept Magnetic Field the way it is, even if they somehow figured out the right restrictions to keep it limited but still similar cost, all it'd take is another move that converts something back to blue AP on a similar cost to create an infinite loop. I think they need to eventually just get rid of all the AP conversion moves. Right now you can't have a move that converts green to yellow either or it'd infinite with Thunder Strike, and things will only get worse as more abilities get added to the game, so changing Magnetic Field is a good start.
  • Unknown
    edited September 2014
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    oops. how do i delete this?
  • Phantron wrote:

    The only person you need Magneto is you don't mind taking a very long time to sit through all his animation. Strike tiles (and any other abilities) just brings that time to something relatively sane.

    The abilities that can overwrite arbitary tile cost at least 11 AP and it only gets rid of one tile, so being able to overwrite 2 tiles for 5 AP is way overpowered. It's a bigger problem for PvE since PvE has much higher frequency of powerful tiles that must be destroyed due to enemies in PvE don't have to be fair. At any rate even if you take something like Deceptive Tactics it roughly gets you an equal amount of green for the purple you spent (sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the layout), so it's a 1 time 1 to 1 deal for AP conversion. Magnetic Field, even when used poorly, can at least convert 1 blue AP to 4 other AP (make a match 4 of blue) and it's self-sustaining until you run out of blue tiles.

    In general AP conversion abilities are inherently problematic because it hamstrings you into making certain conversion impossible, because if there's say an ability that converts green AP to purple AP then you likely have an infinite loop between that and Deceptive Tactics. For the most part they try to keep this in check by making the abilities expensive that by the time you get to a 4 match move like Deceptive Tactics, even if it does somehow end the game, that's not an outrageous amount of power for a 4 match move, and of course it usually comes nowhere close to ending the game anyway. Had they kept Magnetic Field the way it is, even if they somehow figured out the right restrictions to keep it limited but still similar cost, all it'd take is another move that converts something back to blue AP on a similar cost to create an infinite loop. I think they need to eventually just get rid of all the AP conversion moves. Right now you can't have a move that converts green to yellow either or it'd infinite with Thunder Strike, and things will only get worse as more abilities get added to the game, so changing Magnetic Field is a good start.

    With this "wipe all TU tiles" move this mags will have going on he might very well become one of the better batteries in the game, specially with the blue nuke. I think people will utterly shun him for a while then find out he's actually still really good.
  • ark123 wrote:

    With this "wipe all TU tiles" move this mags will have going on he might very well become one of the better batteries in the game, specially with the blue nuke. I think people will utterly shun him for a while then find out he's actually still really good.

    Well the destroy all TU ability lets you setup good chains since unlike Storm's which destroys only a certain number, destroying all TUs lets you know for sure how the cascade will end. It's too much effort to do this for PvP given PvP's utter emphasis on winning quickly, but it should be fine for PvE where you're not as time constrained. If the level 300 stuff is making a comeback you're going to need a move like Coercive Field just to last long enough to make sure you don't get wiped by match damage before those guys run out of HPs. No the tradeoff still isn't in your favor, but you literally don't have enough HP to outlast guys that can drop 1K+ match 4s even if they never used a single AP consuming move, so you don't have much of a choice. Toward the end of the level 395 era a lot of time I ended up going for an early Peacemaker because you have to have Peacemaker out to out get immediately rolled over by their match damage since half of the time the level 395s can just withstand your extra 25 turns and then still kill you with just match damage, and Coercive Field is probably quite a bit better than Peacemaker.

    For PvP, I'm guessing at some point they'll completely phase out boosts with TUs instead and then defensive moves will be quite competitive, since boosts greatly skew every fight in favor of offensive moves. Starting with Judgment is a huge advantage, but starting with a Coercive Field is nothing worth mentioning even though the Coercive Field is strong enough to cancel out a Judgment, but there's no value in preemptively use a defensive move.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Phantron wrote:
    The abilities that can overwrite arbitary tile cost at least 11 AP and it only gets rid of one tile, so being able to overwrite 2 tiles for 5 AP is way overpowered. It's a bigger problem for PvE since PvE has much higher frequency of powerful tiles that must be destroyed due to enemies in PvE don't have to be fair. At any rate even if you take something like Deceptive Tactics it roughly gets you an equal amount of green for the purple you spent (sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the layout), so it's a 1 time 1 to 1 deal for AP conversion. Magnetic Field, even when used poorly, can at least convert 1 blue AP to 4 other AP (make a match 4 of blue) and it's self-sustaining until you run out of blue tiles.
    People keep saying that, but neglect to mention that with the return, the net cost is only 1 or 2 AP respectively, with some pretty major other effects on top of that. 5 AP is probably too cheap, yes, but a dozen AP for a move that ONLY removes selected tiles with pretty minimally useful protects really isn't the same thing as LC's shield abilities
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Take away the color shifts. C.mags will be doing the exact same thing he was always meant to. Create overwriting protect tiles. Shakeup the board and nuke a single target. While he does this differently he still does it. And if you max coercive field you still can pair with patch and lose some of the damage you take from Beserker Rage
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
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    Phantron wrote:

    In general AP conversion abilities are inherently problematic because it hamstrings you into making certain conversion impossible, because if there's say an ability that converts green AP to purple AP then you likely have an infinite loop between that and Deceptive Tactics. For the most part they try to keep this in check by making the abilities expensive that by the time you get to a 4 match move like Deceptive Tactics, even if it does somehow end the game, that's not an outrageous amount of power for a 4 match move, and of course it usually comes nowhere close to ending the game anyway. Had they kept Magnetic Field the way it is, even if they somehow figured out the right restrictions to keep it limited but still similar cost, all it'd take is another move that converts something back to blue AP on a similar cost to create an infinite loop. I think they need to eventually just get rid of all the AP conversion moves. Right now you can't have a move that converts green to yellow either or it'd infinite with Thunder Strike, and things will only get worse as more abilities get added to the game, so changing Magnetic Field is a good start.

    Maybe not quite what you had in mind, but classic Storm's green power pretty much does infinite turn with Deceptive Tactics and Thunder Strike combined, that is if all three powers are available. It just takes some time to get going and then very rarely runs out of needed AP.

    Of course using that much green AP for Lightning Storm and not Sniper Rifle or CotS twice is only really necessary in some otherwise next to impossible PvE fight.
  • Nellyson
    Nellyson Posts: 354 Mover and Shaker
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    So what happened to this force patch absolutely coming out on 9/5?? I actually want to see all these changes. Yeah I lose Patchneto and my LDaken has no covers, but I want to play with X-Force and test Hawkeye out. Plus, even tho I'm upset about purple changing to yellow (seriously ****??? Just make purple the strong match damage you idiots not change the powers), I wasn't to see this new Magneto. I want to see how he plays! Bring on the patch!!!!!
  • Nellyson wrote:
    So what happened to this force patch absolutely coming out on 9/5?? I actually want to see all these changes. Yeah I lose Patchneto and my LDaken has no covers, but I want to play with X-Force and test Hawkeye out. Plus, even tho I'm upset about purple changing to yellow (seriously ****??? Just make purple the strong match damage you idiots not change the powers), I wasn't to see this new Magneto. I want to see how he plays! Bring on the patch!!!!!

    It never said absolutely.

    There has been a dev post about the delay.
  • CrookedKnight
    CrookedKnight Posts: 2,579 Chairperson of the Boards
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    So with the changes to Healing & Heat making it more likely for Heat to trigger, is it worth thinking about skipping the move entirely and just building Daken at 5/0/5?
  • So with the changes to Healing & Heat making it more likely for Heat to trigger, is it worth thinking about skipping the move entirely and just building Daken at 5/0/5?

    The chance of not having enough blue tiles is very small with the Magneto nerf, since he's usually the guy responsible for drastically lowering the number of available blue tiles. Blue is currently a weak color, which means you'd have no reason to match it and if your opponent matched it, who cares if you end up losing 3% of Daken's HP when they skipped a turn? The wording on Healing & Heat is confusing but assuming the requirement for avoid Heat goes up by 1 you'll still be regening about 5% per turn on an average board. The only case to concern would be against Fury, who is likely the only strong blue user currently in the game, and in PvE against goons that tend to have a lot of CDs on blue which reduces the number of blue tiles available one way or another.
  • I've been impatiently waiting for this patch, just so I can keep my team up abilities selected match after matches.. So sick of picking them every now and then.

    After last pvp and finally maximizing my sentriken and thorken, I can finally say good bye to my patchneto icon_e_biggrin.gif whatever you do devs, we will always find another broken combo to use.. Whatever happened to that notion about making everything overpowered? Boo.
  • Nellyson
    Nellyson Posts: 354 Mover and Shaker
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    Nellyson wrote:
    So what happened to this force patch absolutely coming out on 9/5?? I actually want to see all these changes. Yeah I lose Patchneto and my LDaken has no covers, but I want to play with X-Force and test Hawkeye out. Plus, even tho I'm upset about purple changing to yellow (seriously ****??? Just make purple the strong match damage you idiots not change the powers), I wasn't to see this new Magneto. I want to see how he plays! Bring on the patch!!!!!

    It never said absolutely.

    There has been a dev post about the delay.

    Ok cool. Kinda sad it hasn't happened yet. Maybe they're gonna use purple like we've been asking for! I'm dreaming but still.
  • Highdark
    Highdark Posts: 75 Match Maker
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    after this patch ill have a usable 4 star! Been excited since i heard about it!
  • Joker117
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    Highdark wrote:
    after this patch ill have a usable 4 star! Been excited since i heard about it!

    Maybe...one day IW will be good too lol
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
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    With a delay like this it can no longer be said that Apple or Google are doing it. My guess is that they pulled back or are changing proposed updates. (my guess is Magneto and maybe Daken tweaks) There really is no other reason. My gut says that they caught the C.Mags problems with Magnetic Translocation soon to be Magnetized Projectiles, the problem being A. if you are going to change color the swaps need to be yellow/red, B. The damage they are currently showing is nerfed compared to the original. The stats they are proposing and are comparing him to are his old 141 stats, but they are showing his new 166 numbers, as most can see this just trashes him. My hope is that they leave his colors as is, and just adjust the tile strengths, I would even be okay with changing blue to yellow, but god I hope they leave purple. As for Daken, I really, really hope they just do a tile strength switch first and not a strike tile nerf at the same time.