Patch R58 Discussion - Live 7/29

scottee

Pylgrim wrote:

NOOOOOOOOOO they ultra nerfed Storm. Now that she only breaks up a few envi- er,Team-Up tiles instead of all, there will be 1. Many less cascades which was the main attraction of the ability and 2. Less damage, even with the proposed increased tile damage.... specially for Mohawk Storm whose max tile damage is now LESS than her previous max damage because her fifth cover raises number of tiles broken, not damage. In other words, her red went from dealing over 2.2k damage (with an average of 10 enviro tiles, much more with more tiles) to deal a TOTAL maximum of 1540 (with a much reduced chance of creating cascades). This in a character that wasn't that strong to begin with, because the ability costs!

I know there are not that many fans of Storm out there but can I please get some solidarity here so the Devs will see this before the patch and fix it? I understand why they do not want her to shatter all those tiles anymore, so I won't ask for that, but please compensate the large decrease in power by significantly lowering AP cost and/or further raising tile damage. Or throw in a stun for the target, or make it AoE. Anything. Please.

We don't know how much the increase is, but everyone is pretty sure that team-up AP will be more useful than environmental AP.

Spoit

It might be another 'reading off the wrong spreadsheet' thing, but the actually reduced the per tile damage along with reducing the number of collected tiles

Twysta

HairyDave

scottee wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

NOOOOOOOOOO they ultra nerfed Storm. Now that she only breaks up a few envi- er,Team-Up tiles instead of all, there will be 1. Many less cascades which was the main attraction of the ability and 2. Less damage, even with the proposed increased tile damage.... specially for Mohawk Storm whose max tile damage is now LESS than her previous max damage because her fifth cover raises number of tiles broken, not damage. In other words, her red went from dealing over 2.2k damage (with an average of 10 enviro tiles, much more with more tiles) to deal a TOTAL maximum of 1540 (with a much reduced chance of creating cascades). This in a character that wasn't that strong to begin with, because the ability costs!

I know there are not that many fans of Storm out there but can I please get some solidarity here so the Devs will see this before the patch and fix it? I understand why they do not want her to shatter all those tiles anymore, so I won't ask for that, but please compensate the large decrease in power by significantly lowering AP cost and/or further raising tile damage. Or throw in a stun for the target, or make it AoE. Anything. Please.

We don't know how much the increase is, but everyone is pretty sure that team-up AP will be more useful than environmental AP.

This.

While I get the frustration with Storm's change(s), until we know how useful the team-ups are actually going to be in practice, we don't know how much of a nerf this is going to be for Storm - or even if it is one.

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

I'll probably stay with Laken, at least until their renitence to nerf, too, has passed. WR itself doesn't do too much self damage, I didn't even bother saving a health pack for the featured char most of the time

But Cap Marvel can feed BP and sentry/Lt Assuming she survives even a WR.

wymtime

Spoit wrote:

wymtime wrote:

It is already my go to team but I just have to say BP battle plan, Sentry World Rupture and then if needed Rage of the panther. Sentry no longer has to kill himself with sacrifice for shield hopping.

I think the team ups could be huge more so on the 2* level. Having a 2* team and getting a 3* attack could be huge. If these are big abilities Stom is now very viable and can play with a stron R,G,Y since she will now be G,Y,B. She could become a very good support character for 9 yellow.

Depends on the amount of overkill. It's 100 less strike tile damage than sacrifice without the 12 team up AP

It might be 100 less strike tile damage but it is also 1000 less damage from sacrifice. Also since there are 3 strike tiles if 1 gets matched you still have 2 to do a lot of damage. Much less risk for similar damage and not having to use as many health packs.

wymtime

EvilSonGoku wrote:

Spoit wrote:

I'll probably stay with Laken, at least until their renitence to nerf, too, has passed. WR itself doesn't do too much self damage, I didn't even bother saving a health pack for the featured char most of the time

But Cap Marvel can feed BP and sentry/Lt Assuming she survives even a WR.

I wonder how many captain marvels will be killed by a players own world rupture next PVP?

Unknown

wymtime wrote:

EvilSonGoku wrote:

Spoit wrote:

I'll probably stay with Laken, at least until their renitence to nerf, too, has passed. WR itself doesn't do too much self damage, I didn't even bother saving a health pack for the featured char most of the time

But Cap Marvel can feed BP and sentry/Lt Assuming she survives even a WR.

I wonder how many captain marvels will be killed by a players own world rupture next PVP?

Not mine until the last fight or two each time. Loaner all the way.

Pylgrim

HairyDave wrote:

scottee wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

NOOOOOOOOOO they ultra nerfed Storm. Now that she only breaks up a few envi- er,Team-Up tiles instead of all, there will be 1. Many less cascades which was the main attraction of the ability and 2. Less damage, even with the proposed increased tile damage.... specially for Mohawk Storm whose max tile damage is now LESS than her previous max damage because her fifth cover raises number of tiles broken, not damage. In other words, her red went from dealing over 2.2k damage (with an average of 10 enviro tiles, much more with more tiles) to deal a TOTAL maximum of 1540 (with a much reduced chance of creating cascades). This in a character that wasn't that strong to begin with, because the ability costs!

I know there are not that many fans of Storm out there but can I please get some solidarity here so the Devs will see this before the patch and fix it? I understand why they do not want her to shatter all those tiles anymore, so I won't ask for that, but please compensate the large decrease in power by significantly lowering AP cost and/or further raising tile damage. Or throw in a stun for the target, or make it AoE. Anything. Please.

We don't know how much the increase is, but everyone is pretty sure that team-up AP will be more useful than environmental AP.

This.

While I get the frustration with Storm's change(s), until we know how useful the team-ups are actually going to be in practice, we don't know how much of a nerf this is going to be for Storm - or even if it is one.

I know that Team Up tiles are going to be more important than Enviromental. Still, only 5 of them (no way you're going to go 5 covers on this ability now). That's less than two matches' worth. I don't see any scenario where this will account for almost 1k (or more, with lots of enviro tiles) less damage and greatly reduced chances of cascades. Again, on a character that was already dismissed as not very strong.

Another thing. I feel the change from red to yellow for that ability is a bit weird. I always thought that BP's yellow ability counted enviro tiles in order to work great with his wife, but now that both of those abilities use yellow (and BP's is vaaastly superior) there's no reason whatsoever to play those two characters together.

Unknown

Team ups turning this into mvc1 ala assists. Sounds great tbh. Now I can ditch gsbw and just use Deceptive Tactics as an assist. Storm would be crazy as an assist. 9 TU to use Elements, get 6 TU back. Even Lightning Storm is good, 10 TU to generate 12 AP without taking the precious green slot or deal with her low health. Caps Shield would be good too. Recharge... the assist gets stunned?

Basically, any unusable character caused by colour combination, low health, or just having 1 or 2 good skills get put on assist duty. Human Torch for example. It also kinda makes 2-ability characters near-obsolete. I.e. why use Loki when you can just equip Trickery as an assist.


As for balance changes... well it's a start.

BP got a good buff on his yellow, but meh. It effs with his internal balance. 5/3/5 is now the defacto build, much like gsbws 5/3/5.

DD, sure why not.

Storm... M.Storm nerfed, Mohawk buffed. I've been using her (m.Storm) still to this day, and this is where she finally gets retired. I suppose this forces people to "upgrade" to the gold version, but I have few covers for her and not in a hurry to obtain them.

Pylgrim

ihearthawthats wrote:

Storm... M.Storm nerfed, Mohawk buffed. I've been using her (m.Storm) still to this day, and this is where she finally gets retired. I suppose this forces people to "upgrade" to the gold version, but I have few covers for her and not in a hurry to obtain them.

It's the other way around. M. Storm got her damage buffed quite a bit (though the ability cost cannot be reduced now), which may or may not even with the damage she was getting from destroying ALL tiles. Mohawk's damage was slightly nerfed (in addition to the lowered tile destruction, obviously)

mohio

ihearthawthats wrote:

Team ups turning this into mvc1 ala assists. Sounds great tbh. Now I can ditch gsbw and just use Deceptive Tactics as an assist. Storm would be crazy as an assist. 9 TU to use Elements, get 6 TU back. Even Lightning Storm is good, 10 TU to generate 12 AP without taking the precious green slot or deal with her low health. Caps Shield would be good too. Recharge... the assist gets stunned?

Basically, any unusable character caused by colour combination, low health, or just having 1 or 2 good skills get put on assist duty. Human Torch for example. It also kinda makes 2-ability characters near-obsolete. I.e. why use Loki when you can just equip Trickery as an assist.

They might not even have it completely worked out yet, but by the announcement it made it sound like these were just one-shot abilities, not that you got to use the ability as many times as you wanted throughout the match. It'd make Mistress of the Elements pretty awful, but I suppose some of the others would still work fine. It'll be interesting to see if you're better off using more support characters and teaming up with a huge nuke, or using the huge nuke guys and teaming up with a good support ability (if such support abilities even really exist - aggressive recon could be pretty nuts to have, but maybe they'll stick to only 3* abilities).

edit: there's also the psychological strain of bringing along a team up and then not using it cause your main team had it covered or just not collecting enough team-up AP to use it. I imagine that would still use up your team-up token, but maybe they'll be different and only "used" once you actually cast the ability in a match. This might cause people to collect the team-up AP to get the value out of their token even if it is not the smartest thing to be doing given the board state.

Unknown

My impression is that these team-ups are basically like boosts that you acquire either by playing or possibly buying them and have nothing to do with the characters you actually have, so it wouldn't do anything to encourage you to build a more diverse roster.

Nonce Equitaur 2

Myself, I like the changes. But yes, they made the classic mistake -- making a change without justifying it.

Environment tiles are changing here. To justify this, they should have given some stats on usage. Desert, Tundra, and Jungle were considered overpowered. The rest underpowered. If they showed that most people avoided the environment tiles, that would have better motivated the changes to Storm.

Using 9AP to collect up to 7AP isn't a great power, even if it does moderate damage. To be decent, it has to speed things up a bit. For example, if Storm had a Yellow Passive allowing her to collect Environment tiles and they would do 80 damage each, and wouldn't end her turn, that would be similar but useful. Perhaps overpowered. However, I'm not broken up by it. The team-up points are potentially very valuable, so this might be one of the best abilities in the game, soon. And changing her colors is also good.

The buffs to Black Panther and DareDevil are interesting. Deadpool looks interesting.

Leugenesmiff

Team-Ups sound interesting, but I'm worried that they'll not just be occasional drops but available for purchase costing at least ISO and maybe HP for the best ones like boosts. If so, while it could add some neat stuff to play, competitions will be further weighted in favor of pay 2 win. I hope not. We'll see.

I'm excited about the BP yellow buff. Thought at first it was done because using up the TU tiles would be more of a sacrifice, but it sounds like you don't even use them up, just need them (of course this means you've held and not spent them, which might end up being a big deal in itself, though you're getting the extra 2 tiles no matter what.)

Spoit

Leugenesmiff wrote:

Team-Ups sound interesting, but I'm worried that they'll not just be occasional drops but available for purchase costing at least ISO and maybe HP for the best ones like boosts. If so, while it could add some neat stuff to play, competitions will be further weighted in favor of pay 2 win. I hope not. We'll see.

And people were popoohing me when I said the shift to HP for boosts was P2W

mohio

Spoit wrote:

Leugenesmiff wrote:

Team-Ups sound interesting, but I'm worried that they'll not just be occasional drops but available for purchase costing at least ISO and maybe HP for the best ones like boosts. If so, while it could add some neat stuff to play, competitions will be further weighted in favor of pay 2 win. I hope not. We'll see.

And people were popoohing me when I said the shift to HP for boosts was P2W

Don't see how these team up "boosts" or whatever they're going to be called can be any more P2W than Sentry+Bagman+AP boosts (RIP WorldRunner). You still have to collect the team up AP, which is going to take longer than making a green + yellow match (plus black if you want to use intimidation), not to mention there's not one single ability in the game that will down everyone outside of World Rupture + Strike tiles, so what's the point in team up when you can just run Sentry (if you're P2W you can afford to buy missing covers of Sentry, AP boosts, etc.)?

Anyway, mostly looks like a fun addition to the game as opposed to something that will greatly effect top tier strategy. At least until they make 4* platinum Ororo with the original unnerfed Mistress of the Elements.

Unknown

LakeStone wrote:

Hi Everyone –

[snip]

Please note changes are not yet final.

- Thank you

That was all I really needed to know.

But seriously, it looks like we're all about to face ANOTHER True Healing(TM)-Level shake-up(down?) in MPQ land.

PG-13 spoiler ahead

Brace yourselves. Or, as we used to say in the military, bend over & prepare to take it until Taps!

Unknown

Leugenesmiff wrote:

Team-Ups sound interesting, but I'm worried that they'll not just be occasional drops but available for purchase costing at least ISO and maybe HP for the best ones like boosts. If so, while it could add some neat stuff to play, competitions will be further weighted in favor of pay 2 win. I hope not. We'll see.

That's what I'm thinking, my guess is they'll be exactly like the premium boosts, which cost HP, and will be super open to being exploited by the P2W crowd.

I hope they don't become a complete game breaker, as long as the game is still playable I don't really care.

turul

Hopefully there will be battery-power teamups so all maps will be now light jungle. Or thor yellow for desert (or rag red)