True Healing Discussion (Live 6/25)

HailMary

pasa_ wrote:

HailMary wrote:

... but I don't see how making 3*s usable with fewer covers is a bad thing. For example, I started running a 3x3* team right when I got enough covers in three good 3*s to hit a L102 soft cap. After the level bump, 3*s will outclass similar 2*s at a lower cover count than before (maybe 1-2 fewer covers?), and the same goes for 2*s vs. 1*s.

That is exactly the smoke. If you actually look at numbers and tables they will show it not the case. It just provides good optics at the spot it counts: the * guy winning the *** cover and notice it's 40, same as top of his jugs and almost level with his IM35 and storm. Not puny 15 that is easy to sell instead of keeping with the trouble to buy the next PACK of roster slots on real money.

While I'm positive without looking that no 1-cover *** is anywhere near the power of a lvl40 *.

Most new characters, even lazy ones are pretty lame without last covers, the attributes gained from more levels are not so big.

I can see how that would be tricksy. Heck, I thought my L30 1-cover XWolv was a pwnage machine for over a week.

I was talking more about how a semi-covered higher-star character might start legitimately outclassing a maxed lower-star character earlier. Anyone who tries to go to town with a 1-cover IM40 in PVP would be a fool, but making, say, LT viable at 9 covers vs. 10 covers (or 8 vs. 10? I haven't done the math) would still be an improvement.

orionpeace

HailMary wrote:

A placebo for... what? It doesn't really affect me, since I'm running maxed 3*s already, but I don't see how making 3*s usable with fewer covers is a bad thing. For example, I started running a 3x3* team right when I got enough covers in three good 3*s to hit a L102 soft cap. After the level bump, 3*s will outclass similar 2*s at a lower cover count than before (maybe 1-2 fewer covers?), and the same goes for 2*s vs. 1*s.

I don't think the devs bumped levels to make low-tier characters more wonderful. Rather, as someone whose original 1* team was max IM35 + max MBW + 1-cover XWolv, I can see how the level bumps would make rarer characters more usable with fewer covers. I can see it easing 1*-2* transition and 2*-3* transition, if only by a bit.

But use them for what exactly?

A low covered, but higher level 3* can be used for what? It is the covers that make the hero effective. The levels just increase the damage and health. Look at the difference between OBW Level 1 Blue versus her Level 5.

And you started long enough ago that the game for new players is significantly different from what you played.

It is beginning to wear on me the number of long-time, high-level players who insist these changes aren't so bad for us newbies. At best this change is neutral, except for those newbies who will be hoodwinked by it. At worst, the increase in healing recovery times for 2* we do have covered will increase enough that we decide to walk away since the play time is so short.

I don't see a benefit here. And too much risk of a detriment. The level increase will only create the illusion of effectiveness that D3 is hoping will translate into $$$.

DD-The-Mighty

HailMary wrote:

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

Speaking of playing dumb. As an avid poster you know full well that the new level cap is a mere placebo. Smoke and mirrors to make thew same outclassed characters seem more powerful than they actually are. All that mid to low level diversity experimentation stops when teams start getting bodied, running subpar pvp characters like Bullseye, Cap, and Moonstone.

A placebo for... what? It doesn't really affect me, since I'm running maxed 3*s already, but I don't see how making 3*s usable with fewer covers is a bad thing. For example, I started running a 3x3* team right when I got enough covers in three good 3*s to hit a L102 soft cap. After the level bump, 3*s will outclass similar 2*s at a lower cover count than before (maybe 1-2 fewer covers?), and the same goes for 2*s vs. 1*s.

I don't think the devs bumped levels to make low-tier characters more wonderful. Rather, as someone whose original 1* team was max IM35 + max MBW + 1-cover XWolv, I can see how the level bumps would make rarer characters more usable with fewer covers. I can see it easing 1*-2* transition and 2*-3* transition, if only by a bit.

Only a few characters actually do well simply by leveling them up with suboptimal covers. The rest's usefulness are primarily governed the level of covers they have. At best this gives a minor bump to the 3*s life and damage over 2*s but it is no where near enough to justify fielding Low cover 3*s. you seem to want to paint a picture that doesn't exists. the ruthless cutthroat environment that d3 has cultivated in PVP has damn near killed all reward for experimentation. No one is going to waste their health packs and open themselves up to frequent retaliations for some half baked 3*s. At least no one one who actually wants to place well.

If you have an issue with the justified points that the new level bump is mostly moot. there's a whole thread of folks who will satiate your need to be contradictory. http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10735&start=240

Unknown

The new healing wouldn't be so bad if we were not already used to the old style healing. For PvP the new healing sucks since going up against equally strong teams you generally want full health starting the match. You might be able to squeeze out 2-3 matches before having to health pack it up, but you're adding increased risk.

For PvE when scaling isn't bad the new healing works ok. In subsequent matches you can give your team a boost that helps stretch out playing time a bit, but not have true healing sucks. Especially when OBW and SheHulk are buffed.

Every change they've made over the last few months is pushing me further away from the game. I've already given up PvP and I'm playing PvE casually. Boosted levels are not going to be enough for me to hold onto this game.

D3, you had a fun and addictive game that had potential to be a League of Legends for mobile gaming. Now, not so much...

HailMary

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

Only a few characters actually do well simply by leveling them up with suboptimal covers.

2*s, off the top of my head: OBW, Thor, CStorm, MN Mags
3*s, off the top of my head: CMags, LT, BP

Those are just characters I've actually (and successfully) played for quite a while with suboptimal covers -- come to think of it, they're most of the characters I've actively played it. There may literally be no other characters who are usable when underleveled, but I doubt it.

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

If you have an issue with the justified points that the new level bump is mostly moot. there's a whole thread of folks who will satiate your need to be contradictory. http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10735&start=240

Oh, I've been tracking that thread, but no worries, your armchair psychoanalysis is still adorable.

In the last few pages of that thread, I see Lyrian being fine with the level bumps and "true healing" (though taking issue with their timing), _RiO_ making a good point about level bumps being a roster-slot-purchase push (pretty likely, I think), theHappyDance stating that it's unnecessary and breaks his game tools (I feel for him), and a whole lotta off-topic chatter.

Funny that my comment on page 6 (essentially the same as the bit you're addressing here) got partial disagreement that didn't end with a thinly veiled "STFU, f---er."

Unknown

HailMary wrote:

I can see how that would be tricksy. Heck, I thought my L30 1-cover XWolv was a pwnage machine for over a week.

I was talking more about how a semi-covered higher-star character might start legitimately outclassing a maxed lower-star character earlier. Anyone who tries to go to town with a 1-cover IM40 in PVP would be a fool, but making, say, LT viable at 9 covers vs. 10 covers (or 8 vs. 10? I haven't done the math) would still be an improvement.

This actually is a pretty valid point, since IceIX claimed the change was intended to make rarer characters more viable earlier. I do agree with others here that match damage alone won't fix most of them since the higher * rating chars tend to need those last covers, but some of them like LThor actually outclassed their standard version in power damage even without full covers. So one of the things that does bear keeping in mind is that POWER damage should also presumably increase with this change so those weaker powers should still do more damage if they're at higher level.

If their point is to give newer players a reason to hold onto their low-covered rare heroes, this actually is an effective method to encourage that. Whether this ends up being a net positive or negative change for this game remains to be seen though. The devil's in the details, well at least until Apocalypse shows up.

DD-The-Mighty

HailMary wrote:

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

Only a few characters actually do well simply by leveling them up with suboptimal covers.

2*s, off the top of my head: OBW, Thor, CStorm, MN Mags
3*s, off the top of my head: CMags, LT, BP

Those are just characters I've actually (and successfully) played for quite a while with suboptimal covers -- come to think of it, they're most of the characters I've actively played it. There may literally be no other characters who are usable when underleveled, but I doubt it. (hence why i said there are only a few.)

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

If you have an issue with the justified points that the new level bump is mostly moot. there's a whole thread of folks who will satiate your need to be contradictory. http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10735&start=240

Oh, I've been tracking that thread, but no worries, your armchair psychoanalysis is still adorable. (lol, wut?)

In the last few pages of that thread, I see Lyrian being fine with the level bumps and "true healing" (though taking issue with their timing), _RiO_ making a good point about level bumps being a roster-slot-purchase push (pretty likely, I think), theHappyDance stating that it's unnecessary and breaks his game tools (I feel for him), and a whole lotta off-topic chatter.

Funny that my comment on page 6 (essentially the same as the bit you're addressing here) got partial disagreement that didn't end with a thinly veiled "STFU, f---er."

Your forum victories are the stuff of legends.

Phaserhawk

My favorite is how this new level bump, essentially nerfs the increased healing rate they gave us by making it take even longer to fully recover . I hope they at least kick the healing rate up a couple points to compensate for this, or is it, "working as intended?"

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

My favorite is how this new level bump, essentially nerfs the increased healing rate they gave us by making it take even longer to fully recover . I hope they at least kick the healing rate up a couple points to compensate for this, or is it, "working as intended?"

Considering it is not even live yet, don't count your chickens....

They may keep the overall healing time the same and boost the amount of HP healed per tick.

Of course looking at your post a second time, you pretty much said that.

Chrono_Tata

Okay, since I'm sitting here waiting for my health pack to regenerate while watching my phone notifies me of my points going down from attacks, I figured I'll put my thought into word, in the vain hope that the developers would actually take our opinion into account.

So from the sound of it, the developers claim that they implemented this change in order to achieve 3 things: stop prologue healing, encourage roster diversity and discourage grinding. Here are my opinions about how much of these have actually been successful. Most of these points have probably been raised by others before so apologies if I'm being repetitive.

1) Prologue healing
This has been mostly successful, at least as far as OBW or Spider-Man healing goes. The problem is, due to the fact that Wolverine and Daken players can still heal, people who run those teams can still do prologue healing, except it takes a ton more time and is a lot more boring than the practice that it replaced. This isn't fun. If prologue healing had really been the target, instead of removing healing altogether, they could have disallowed healing in prologue, or keep the healths in prologue and events separate.

2) Roster diversity
So, yes, by essentially locking out our playable characters by not letting us heal, we are having to use a larger set of characters in order to keep playing. The problem is, we hadn't been using those characters for a good reason: either they are too weak to be used or we just don't find them fun to play. We use our A teams exactly because they let us be competitive, and/or we find it fun. Being forced to play characters we don't like isn't fun. Even with the change, I still find myself playing with only 7 or 8 of my characters, from a roster of 40.

What the dev don't seem to realise (or pretend that they don't realise) is that roster diversity shouldn't be a goal in and of itself, making the game fun should be the end goal. Roster diversity is only fun if most of the characters are equally viable, which they are clearly not. There are way too many characters who are either extremely situational, or just flat out useless, and while they do implement some balance changes, the main effort is concentrated on nerfing good characters rather than improving bad ones, and even then progress on character balancing is excruciatingly slow.

OBW and Spidey seem to be put up as the fall guys by the devs, since they are overused. The problem is that those characters had been the only healers available in the game, so OBVIOUSLY they would be overused. If I want a heavy hitter on a 2-star team, I could use Thor, Ares, Wolverine, etc. If I want a support tile character, I could choose Daken or Bullseye. If I want a healer, Black Widow is literally the only choice. The same goes with Spidey and 3-star. The fact that those two characters are (or were, in Spidey's case) really good characters even without healing also helps with that. The argument that OBW being overused is a problem is meaningless and just seems dishonest. This "problem" could easily be fixed if they added more viable healers.

3) Reduce grinding
Prior to this change, my playing schedule in the day would be a one to two hour session, once or twice a day. With the new change, I would be running out of health packs about 30 minutes in. This means that in order to stay equally competitive, I have to put in more shorter sessions throughout the day. This is pretty difficult and is causing me to start feeling burned out by the game. Rather than letting me play in session times that I like, they are forcing me to put in more sessions in order to efficiently utilise the health packs (unless I pay for health packs, of course). This does not at all feel better than the "grinding" I used to do when healing was allowed. In fact, it feels a lot more exhausting.

And, as a side effect, by having more gaps between sessions, it gives more windows for me to get attacked when playing PvP. Unless I shield hop from session to session, I am a lot more exposed to point losses. In the old system, I could just get 500 points in one sitting, wait till the last few hours, get up another 200 points or so then shield. Maybe break shield in the last few minutes for the extra boost. But now, each session only net me about 200 points. If I were to shield hop, the HP I would be spending on shields is significantly larger than the HP I win back from the rewards. In the old system, I could break even on the HP I spend on shields most of the time.

So, tl;dr, none of the supposed points they they claimed True Healing would fix seem to apply to me and in fact I'm enjoying the game quite a bit less than before. The points that they mentioned are problems of course, but True Healing has been the equivalent of getting rid of a hand blister by chopping off your arm.

Unknown

Lack of permanent healing is sorely affecting my game play time. I prefer to play in blocks of a couple of hours rather than 15-20 mins at a time all day long. If I play the PVP games or lightning rounds against stronger teams and lose characters, I am unable to go on and play the events games without using up most, if not all, of my healing packs. This sucks! I want to play the way I want to play - NOT the way someone else tells me I should be playing.

Spoit

I still dont' get people talking about prologue healing with wolvie/dakan. Unless they're in the triple digits, they're going to be back up to full health in a normal fight before the powers start flying.

Feyda

Step 1: Ruin Gameplay with "True Healing"
Step 2: Increase amount of ISO in Storepacks (Still costs about $150 to max one 3* character)
Step 3: ?
Step 4: Hopefully go bankrupt due to horrendous decision making

Unknown

Kiamodo wrote:

Most people will diversify their rosters when you repair broken characters : Loki, DD, rags for example.

Or drop the idea of dumbed AI so it can play them for good. Also the defense team thing in PVP must be covered somehow to prevent losing out on actually sighting with B and C team.

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

I still dont' get people talking about prologue healing with wolvie/dakan. Unless they're in the triple digits, they're going to be back up to full health in a normal fight before the powers start flying.

I lost Patch a few times thinking that . It's okay with damage that heals in 2-3 turns but under 2k you open a vulnerability, so it's worth taking a 30sec detour.

killerkoala

Spoit wrote:

I still dont' get people talking about prologue healing with wolvie/dakan. Unless they're in the triple digits, they're going to be back up to full health in a normal fight before the powers start flying.

heh, if patch or daken were really low it might be worth it in case of a lucky cascade. they need to nerf that, too. must use health packs only.

Unknown

To the Developers.

Whether your intentions were "good" or not. The community hates the True Healing change.
Your reviews on iTunes are scathing to say the least.

It's not to late to turn back

Feyda

Redstrider wrote:

To the Developers.

Whether your intentions were "good" or not. The community hates the True Healing change.
Your reviews on iTunes are scathing to say the least.

It's not to late to turn back

Quick, release Superman to fly around the earth really really fast, reversing time to prevent the True Healing patch... oh wait, Superman isn't a Marvel character.... WE'RE DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED (MD)!

Unknown

I have to be the only one seriously not bothered by the true healing patch.

My Hulk goes from 1HP to Max in just three hours. I get 800 points in PVP, shield, then after everyone heals back up normally get another 400 and shield. I don't have to prologue heal. I can literally zerg rush battles.

killerkoala

Kuchiri wrote:

I have to be the only one seriously not bothered by the true healing patch.

My Hulk goes from 1HP to Max in just three hours. I get 800 points in PVP, shield, then after everyone heals back up normally get another 400 and shield. I don't have to prologue heal. I can literally zerg rush battles.

now do that using only spider-man or OBW, hulk, and loaner featured 3* only, no one else in your roster let's see how you feel again about "true healing".