True Healing Discussion (Live 6/25)

Unknown

awood227 wrote:

Does anyone know how long it takes for a 141 character who is downed to fully reheal?

Look first post for rates.

killerkoala

They implement this towards the end of event that releases a new character to gauge how many "idiots" would buy health packs to compete to try to win a sub par designed 3*. or they just wanted to laugh their **** off cause they know this would screw loyal players who played the entire 3 day event.

abmoraz

@ The Developers and D3 staff

If you are hell bent on keeping this "TrueHealing" patch (a huge mistake if you ask me, but my opinion isn't worth that much) then you NEED, absolutely HAVE to add more PVE levels. It is utterly defeating and demoralizing to only be able to play for 15-20 minutes at a time on a PvP event (finishing with half my roster dead or so low on HP that they aren't usable and the other half below level 30 because I don't have the covers to raise them), then to wait 2.5hrs for them all to heal, only to come back to see I was hit so much that I lost more points than I gained playing the 15-20 minutes earlier.

Under the new system, I lose more by playing than not playing at all. How is that entertaining and fun? The last 2 days have tought me that the most productive strategy I have is to play 1 match a day and wait patiently for my daily supply in hopes that it gives me something that can help me eventually be competitive.

Cry-Havok

This "True Healing ****" is proof that this company cares more about the bottom line, money then the respect of the fans.

For them to dictate that we play/ed too much should have been an honor for them that we cared about this game just as much as they did. "CARED"

I just hope with all other dictators in the world the they will find their ending and it won't be good.

killerkoala

I wonder if they made a tournament where you can only play level 85 and under only characters for people with rosters with many 141's and was mandatory to participate. if you don't place within top 10; your whole roster is banned from all pvp's and let's see all you cry "this isn't fair", i need to buy health packs to keep playing.

Unknown

Well.. i played all I can play for the day. Was hoping to try out She-Hulk, as I had come in 4th in my grouping and had full colors on her. i was hoping to experiment w/ different teams, trying to diversify my play... unfortunately my efforts to play around w/ the game, try different setups.. learn the dynamics of how to play those new teams well... that all lasted about... 35 minutes. Then, as i was health-pack-less, and unable to use what was a very valid, and acceptable means of maintaining LONGER game sessions in which I would find more diverse groupings to play with, I had to just shut it down.

HOPEFULLY, in 4-6 hours, I'll be able to experiment around w/ new teams trying to mix things up and make the game more interesting and engaging for my personal play style. Maybe i can get my play time up to over an hour a day now.

i mean... my stats have me at 160+ hours in the 2 weeks leading up to the new health plan, and my total hours around 1,707... that's 71 actual days of participating in playing this game, that was very fun once. But, I don't think it will REALLY mess up how much I love the game, and want to come back and play more and more and more... who doesn't want to get engaged, start finding intelligent new team dynamics that have been tested through hours of playing, learning, testing, and have that abruptly stopped because...

the 1 single mechanic in the game that allowed new players, those still learning, and those looking to figure out teams, test them, all in the hopes of DIVERSIFYING, how they approached their road to success, has been ripped from under them, enfeebling them to the point of, 'why the heck should i spend my valuable time playing a game that obviously DOESN'T want to give their players the chance to learn, grow, experiment, discover, enjoy, participate, and win... not to mention allowing those who can't throw around their money like it's meaningless to still be successful and competitive w/ those who can'

Anyway, luckily I now have 4-6 hours of downtime in which to sit around on my rear, and think about how fun it would be to find a good set-up for my she-hulk. I should probably write my ideas down so when i am able to play again, i will make the most of my 30-45 minutes of playtime... until bad RNG luck, or just having poor team-setups created in the attempt to learn more and DIVERSIFY my experience, catches up to me.

Good Luck to all, and to all a good... well i was going to say night, but it probably won't last that long... so... 'and to all a good hour or so of playing this once great game.'

-B

Spoit

killerkoala wrote:

are they going to nerf lazy daken and patch prologue healing, matching colors until they are full healed and get back to pvp?????

I dunno why you'd need to bother. Unless they're like, only a few hundred health left, they should easily heal back to full in the next match before powers go off

acescracked

I'm not a fan of the "true-healing" change by any means...BUT, I have to admit the faster healing is nice and makes the game more enjoyable. It really is noticeable, to me at least, how much faster characters heal now.

Unknown

I officially have spent more time (since the change) reading posts than playing the game.

Before you nix healing, why don't you fix the rest of your characters if you want diversity? Only reason players use specific characters is because they are either in a transition stage or those characters are far better than the rest. I can't remember ever facing a 141 DD or Psylocke in PVP. Players aren't scrambling to get on so they can snag their next Bullseye cover. If I had a maxed Mags and/or Patch I probably wouldn't use a OBW. But, that's my only option to be able to play, heal and play some more so I can attempt to get more covers.

Buying a cover is almost a waste since the odds of winning something worthwhile are worse than before (10pks would guarantee a specific 3*) and the more characters you add, the lower the odds of getting a cover you need. Even worse, getting a cover's specific color that you need.

Stop treating players like they are ignorant. Most lurkers and posters have a clear idea of what works and what doesn't in the game. Most also know what can help improve the game and what's ****. If you're going to scam or lie, either be upfront about it or don't say anything at all.

Unknown

Tharos wrote:

Not 4 hours. In 1h30 you will get 3 free health packs. So you only have to change your life schedule: 10 minutes of MPQ every 1h30, it's the way to go.
Easy. It is even faster than the 2h30 of the pve, so if you do well, you can do one pvp round between two pve refresh.
That's the way a (casual) free to play should be played! Any other playstyle will push you far from competition.

"Casual" and "you only have to change your life schedule" in same message? Sarcasm, I hope?

killerkoala

Spoit wrote:

killerkoala wrote:

are they going to nerf lazy daken and patch prologue healing, matching colors until they are full healed and get back to pvp?????

I dunno why you'd need to bother. Unless they're like, only a few hundred health left, they should easily heal back to full in the next match before powers go off

sarcasm is lost on this one:)

Unknown

To the admin / devs :-

You need to have a discussion before make any changes. No? But at least you will have to specially make a close chat with the TOP TEAMS + others paying...

Why? because "THEY PAY AS THEY PLAY" that's why!!!

I was with 1 of them for few days & I am telling you this. They are the most centralize / heart of your system. Everyone of them was so motivated & passionate of this game & you guys really owe them!!!

I felt ashame if I am still with them coz they really play this game differently. They play for you you ****!!!

Spoit

killerkoala wrote:

Spoit wrote:

killerkoala wrote:

are they going to nerf lazy daken and patch prologue healing, matching colors until they are full healed and get back to pvp?????

I dunno why you'd need to bother. Unless they're like, only a few hundred health left, they should easily heal back to full in the next match before powers go off

sarcasm is lost on this one:)

Ah. It's just that you aren't the first person I see mention it, and the others sounded like they were actually serious

Unknown

Well, thanks to this change, I spent maybe 30 minutes with MPQ and got some good time in on Skyrim. Shoot yourself in the foot much devs?

Unknown

As others have pointed out with expereincing this. Thanks to this new update I have only been able to play for 20 minutes before all my health packs were gone. That was a massive 3 whole matches in PVP I was able to do. So I really don't see how the Devs think this change will bring them any profit? Why are people going to spend money on a game they can only play for 20 minutes at a time. Do they honestly think this will make people buy health packs? Because it won't they're just going to cut their loses now. Not much point buying health packs when you use them all up in 20 mins.

Powerhouse92585

I know this has been alluded to in previous posts, but I just need to get it off my chest. I can get behind D3's sentiment of wanting varied rosters. Half the fun of games like these are testing out various line ups to find new, interesting combinations. But considering this game has some serious RPG elements (level ups, different powers, character boosts), it seems foolish to essentially remove a vital RPG class. If you want varied rosters, make the characters and their abilities varied enough to warrant new roster constructions. A good roster should have a tank, a good support character, a damage dealer. You can throw in combinations of healers, thieves, AOE guys, etc. Instead, the optimal build is Laken/Patch/Featured. Having good all around characters is fine but when you make it so these are really the only smart choices not only have you discouraged new roster construction, you've made it an incredibly foolish thing to try to do. You currently have ~45 characters available, but the only "class" worth playing is paladin. If you want me to use more of my roster, give me the kinds of abilities and the kinds of classes I can do that with. While Prologue healing may not be "fun", neither is grinding out a match 3 win with Bagman and Bullseye.

Drift9

Welp, seeing as how I have a roster of 2*s and was only slowly working my way into some 3*s this change kind of kills the game for me. OBW was pretty much the only way I was able to grind up in PvP tournaments. Guess that's the end of that. They say this is nothing but a change to encourage roster variety--seems more like a health pack cash grab to me. Sucks, I was really liking this game and this kind of breaks it for and those who don't have a loaded roster. I've already sunk $40 into this (more than I have on any "free to play" game). That's the last $ I'm giving them. This change reeks.

smatterchoo

I have debated whether or not adding my voice to the cacaphony would help, hinder, or other. In the end, I must do as I teach and speak as I live.

To every single one of you ranting, just shut it. You sound like petulant children throwing a fit when the cranky old man kicks you out of his comic store for just reading and never buying. (Yes, I've also spent money in the old man's store, so I have a bone to pick about being kicked out, too).

To every constructive criticism, thank you. We can only hope the powers that be listen, or risk alienating a significant portion of their user base.

To those who injected humor into this thread, THANK YOU. It's taken me 3 days to get through all 50 pages and your collective wit made the slog better.

Finally, to the powers that be, I have to say .. I get the WHY of what has been done (top of the list is smoothing out the utilization curves and laying the groundwork for future monetization schemes), but the HOW is a serious issue. At the end of the day, this is your IP to do with as you see fit, making the decisions (good or ill only time will tell) you believe to be in the best long term interest of the going concern. On the flip side of that coin, though, is the user base who is free to make their own decisions with regards to how to spend their free time and spare money. You believe that installing this health governor was a necessary change, and better to just do it and let the chips fall where they may. But that is neither good gamesmanship nor good business decision-making. Just as in a match3 game, there are moment-to-moment good choices and bad choices, and it is the player's (your) responsibility to ensure the next move doesn't result in a game-ending cascade. In this case, you needed to clear some tiles (communicate) BEFORE activating your next power (healing nerf). Based on the energy in this thread, the cascade is dwindling, but I fear the consequences to your game's future.

I enjoy this game and I get why some people are so emotionally invested. This is COMIX. These are our childhood friends being brought to life in a new and interesting way.

The collective plea here is simply this: "Please don't ruin this for us". You have an amazing pool of smart, talented, and motivated people developing this game. You also have an orders of magnitude larger base of smart, talented, and motivated fans lining up to play your game. It would be wise and magnanimous to begin a reasoned dialog with them. They deserve at least that much.

And never forget, with great power comes great responsibility.

P.S. Ice, you have my sympathy.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.

Well thank the gods you guys came along to inform me that i wasn't having fun! I _thought_ i was having fun, but clearly i was wrong! Thank you so much for letting me know i wasn't actually enjoying your game!

Seriously, i'm a PC player. I can't log on intermittently during the entire day to take full advantage of regenerating health packs. I've got a couple hours in the evening, on days when i'm not busy doing something with my SO.

Maybe you don't really care about PC players that much. Maybe we're a just a tiny part of your market and not really the demographic you're aiming for. But i _used_ to be a paying player. I spent over $100 on the game back when it was fun. I didn't mind the "fun balancing" of the characters too much. It forced me to switch tactics a bit, but i was still having a blast. But then you started doing your best to wreck the fun. You took away tanking, then doubled down by throwing MMR out of whack, got rid of the 3* rewards in Lightning Rounds, and finally took away healing.

Now i'm in MMR hell (it's been weeks since i've used a character over level 85 in PVP and i'm _still_ getting matched up against x/141/141 teams!) i can't tank and i can't heal and i'm getting my **** handed to me in the Grey Widow tourney because of it. (Grey Widow tourneys were already bad enough without being able to use OBW, but having to face teams much tougher than my own _and_ not being able to prologue heal between fights is just ruining me.)

Is having "fun" supposed to mean giving up on the possibility of doing well in tourneys and events without massively adjusting my schedule to fit how you want me to play the game? I've struggled through the previous changes you've made, trying to figure out how to adapt my playstyle to keep having fun with the game, but after this change it's seeming really daunting. I'll try my best, for awhile at least. But i'm certainly not putting any more money into the game given the way things are trending, and i'm starting to regret the amount i already spent. It seemed worth it at the time, but that was when i thought i'd be able to keep playing until i got bored on my own, not until i was forced out by unwanted changes.

Spoit

A potentially relevant article from Josh Sawyer at obsidian:

This post is about game design. Just bear with me.

In the 1982 World Cup Group stage, the West German and Austrian teams found themselves in an odd situation. With the Algeria-Chile match already played, the West Germany-Austria meeting would be the final match of Group 2. Based on the point spread of all four teams in the group, West Germany and Austria knew exactly what results would allow both to advance: a marginal (1-2 goal) West German victory. After West Germany scored in the first half, both teams settled into what was effectively pantomime. For the remainder of the 90 minutes, they politely passed the ball in their respective halves of the field, opponents occasionally making halfhearted challenges - but no real scoring attempts.

The strategy was transparent to everyone, from the announcers to the angry crowd. Though popular culture condemned the match with names like Nichtangriffspakt von Gijón (Non-Aggression Pact of Gijón) or, even more pejoratively, the Anschluß, it ultimately allowed both teams to progress out of the Group stage. West Germany made it all the way to the final.

To half-solve the problem in subsequent World Cup Group stages, FIFA scheduled the final two matches for any given Group to take place concurrently. In the case of West Germany-Austria, it would have prevented the teams from building a strategy based on the outcome of Algeria-Chile. However, FIFA didn't really fix the underlying issue, which was the design of how teams accumulate points in Group and how those points determine who advances out of Group. And now, on Thursday, June 26th, it's possible we could see a repeat of the Non-Aggression Pact of Gijón at Pernambuco, Brazil, when Germany faces USA. As in 1982, due to the point spread between Germany, USA, Portugal, and Ghana in Group G, both Germany and USA will advance in the event that they draw - regardless of the results of the Portugal-Ghana match happening simultaneously. Given the widespread condemnation of what occurred at Gijón in 1982, it's unlikely to happen again, but nothing in the rules would prevent it.

When designing the rules for any challenge-based game, regardless of the form it takes, it's important to consider how the structure of the rules may promote working against the spirit of the game. What designers allow players to do may inadvertently reward behavior that even the players themselves find to be boring and unenjoyable. If these behaviors are advantageous enough, players will gravitate toward them with increasing frequency until they become the de facto "correct" tactics and strategies for play. One of the most commonly-discussed features that produces this effect is save scumming. Being able to save and load your game at any time is extraordinarily valuable for players, if simply for convenience. However, the way save/load works in conjunction with other mechanics can strongly promote reliance on save/load to overcome difficult situations.

As an example, many role-playing games use virtual dice to "roll" a check when attempting to overcome a single obstacle, such as a locked door. In such cases, the player typically has one "try" on any static obstacle. In practice, they effectively have as many tries as they want as long as they are patient enough to reload. This type of interaction doesn't test players' skills in any new way, it doesn't ask players to attempt any different tactic, and given the "one try" system the designers put in place, it seems to go against the spirit of what the designers were trying to accomplish. While players love succeeding at overcoming obstacles, the percentage who love doing it via save/load is probably very low. Even so, that's what the game's design promotes doing for the best outcome.

By writing all of this, I have no intention of placing any blame or fault on the players. In challenge-based games, designers present obstacles and create the rules and tools for overcoming those obstacles. Players can hardly be faulted for finding and taking advantage of shortcomings in how the systems interact. In the aftermath of Gijón, both teams had to deal with the anger of World Cup fans - especially fans of the Algerian team, who had been denied a chance at moving on due to the West German/Austrian collusion. And there is no doubt that the players who suited up and went on the field that day did not spend their young lives dreaming of strategic pantomiming. Still, FIFA's rules promoted that behavior - and still promote similar behavior. A repeat of Gijón at Pernambuco would produce justified howls of outrage. Still, a paraphrase of the old maxim applies: don't hate the players, hate the game design.