**** Juggernaut (Fear Itself) ****

245

Comments

  • KGBKGB Posts: 1,049 Chairperson of the Boards
    5/5/3
    While he may not be Meta for players with developed 4* and 5* rosters, he will be a very important character for 3* transitioners.

    His match damage resistance and his Green match damage AOE means that on 3* rosters he's going to be tanking most of the time and dealing out the AOE and not taking much damage (saving health packs). He's one of the top 10 4* characters I'd be targeting if I was a 3* transitioner.

    KGB
  • TPF AlexisTPF Alexis Posts: 3,802 Chairperson of the Boards
    Looks like a fitting power set, but I still don't feel like blue is right for that one. I probably would have made his Active black, or made it green and then changed Collateral to black. That said, the Active blue will probably fit into more teams than an Active black or green would have, so it's probably for the best, just aesthetically annoying.
  • HoundofShadowHoundofShadow Posts: 3,255 Chairperson of the Boards
    His HP is ewwww.  21954?  :s
    Add in his match damage reduction and it's going to be a pain fighting him in PvP. 

    I wonder if Vanessa Fisk/Vibranium Ore/Taskmaster's Sword supports and others add extra damage to his passive. I suppose it does. He's going to help blaze through PvEs if it's possible for players in 3* or new 4* land. He could be the new Thanos. Equip him with a Quantum Realm Support and turn him invisible and he's dealing over 5500 damage. That's how broken support could be.  :D q



  • jameshjamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    RickOShay said:
    Wow that match damage reduction is going to make him relevant against five star teams, as long as you can get him to tank a color or three.
    If the match damage reduction is applied before strike tiles are added (which I think is what usually happens for this kind of power?), then Rocket/Kitty based teams may still be effective against him.  Of course, his blue will help in clearing out hard to reach special tiles if they stick around to mid-game.
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,039 Chairperson of the Boards
    Enh, seems interesting, but not great.  Would be more intriguing if he did more passive team damage, or generated his own blue. 

    As is, I can see a use for him using the passive aoe with strikes (or an underleveled okoye) to put out a fair bit of damage.  But his utility will be limited by the frustration of having to keep him in front to maximize his value.

    Definitely better for 4* rosters, and not at all bad.  But overall this is still just another supernumerary 4* in a bloated 4* tier.  It's time for a change.
  • turbomooseturbomoose Posts: 506 Critical Contributor
    I think Thorkoye will be pretty good with him 
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,039 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    I think Thorkoye will be pretty good with him 
    Only if he can tank blue.  Otherwise he is not going to be making a lot of matches.

    He seems to have been designed around thorkoye.

    Also, he will be annoying to fight against in pve, as he will proc a lot of aoe damage.  I would guess that was a motivating factor for the design team.
  • zodiac339zodiac339 Posts: 1,947 Chairperson of the Boards
    3/5/5
    If you want to know what his matches actually do, multiply his match damage by:
    Rank 1/2: 1.4
    Rank 3: 1.65
    Rank 4: 2
    Rank 5: 3.25

    And that’s Base damage, like Ghost, rather than an increase on the match, like Vision, Chavez, or Thanos. So at level 270 rank 5 Unstoppable, damage is:
    Green: 276
    Red: 240
    Blue: 211
    Team Up: 139
    Black: 42
    Purple: 39
    Yellow: 35

    I’ll need to take Blackbird off Kitty, but he will tank green and blue over Gritty in Story, and tanks over them in Versus. I’ll try Chewie on her and try Blackbird on Juggernaut (once he can be Champed.)
  • bluewolfbluewolf Posts: 4,910 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    3/5/5
    Does anyone know why Juggernaut is an X-Man here? (under affiliations)  Was he a member when Fear Itself happened?

    EDIT:  Juggs was an X-man a few years, at least, before he was changed during Fear Itself.  At that point, Xaver had thrown him out of the Xmen as irredeemable but for some reason had asked Luke Cage to make him a Thunderbolt.  (Comics logic!)  So he was a Thunderbolt when he transformed, and afterwards went into military custody.  He has been more of a chaotic force in later years vs a true villain and sometimes helps the heroes.

    But the game has him listed as both a "Villain" and an "X-Man".  Which makes no sense.
  • ThanosThanos Posts: 622 Critical Contributor
    Ok, used him in the shield training and his blue at 11 ap is way over-priced. I barely got any cascades from it and it does hardly any damage. I'd sooner take 1* Juggs green instead, could cast it almost twice and get far more damage and cascades. @Demiurge_Anthony Please reconsider the cost of this ability, 6 -7 ap would be fine.
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,553 Chairperson of the Boards
    I have a feeling he is going to be ubiquitous real quick. If you are like me, and have a usable Okoye (6/4/1) but a dismal Gladiathor (2/0/2), he is surely going to be worth chasing for awhile. The 4* game has been on point for quite a few releases now.
  • wymtimewymtime Posts: 3,468 Chairperson of the Boards
    5/5/3
    Thanos said:
    @Demiurge_Anthony Does his blue really need to cost 11 just for some tile destruction?
    It will also do damage from each tile that he destroys. He has a good chance of tanking his colors, so this should do pretty good damage (and ends up getting some sweet cascades too).

    Here is a screenshot of lv 270 Juggernaut activating his blue power with 5 power levels.


    And this is the destruction and damage that it did.


    (everytime I see these screenshots, I have to check to make I am not leaking anything ><)
    Thanks for posting this.  You said he does some pretty good damage, but is 2134 direct damage strong for 11 AP in the 4* world?  To compare black cats green does 4570 damage plus a potential 2281 for a total of over 6800 damage for 6 AP s level 270.  For cascades you would need an extra 4K plus damage just to make up that difference and it costs 5 more AP?  

    From players perspective this is the way s lot of players look at this power and feel 11 AP is way too expensive and that as a developer you are over valuing board shake and potential cascades.
  • bluewolfbluewolf Posts: 4,910 Chairperson of the Boards
    3/5/5
    NOTE:  There is a video showing that Okoye does NOTHING to boost his AOE.

    She has a long time issue where powers that have a tile damage component don't get damage boosts.  War Machine's Gatling Gun is the first one that comes to mind.

    So when you manage to make matches with Juggs the AOE is just the baseline.

    Now, is this something that can be fixed?  Hard to say.  But there are plenty of powers that have tile damage that Okoye won't boost.
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,553 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    For 9 red AP, my Domino does 1546 damage PER black tile destroyed (50% of the blacks on the board) as a comparison. that blue power is not what I care about with Juggernaut. His utility is in passive, match-based team damage getting stacked with a force multiplier like Okoye on my roster.

    *edit* if his AOE isn't stacking with WF, that sounds like it needs to get fixed. His power does a defined amount of bonus damage, and all the powers that destroy tiles and have that component gain the benefit of wakanda forever. Same with Gatling Gun if it's broken.
  • bluewolfbluewolf Posts: 4,910 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    3/5/5
    One thing I like about Juggs is that he finally expresses durability that multiple characters (that I thought should have, canonically) did not, on a passive basis.

    Ex: I got excited when I pulled Colossus at first and was building him up, thinking he'd be hard to kill since he's metal and all.  Nope.

    His giant health pool plus damage reduction means he's probably the first character in the game that reflects their comic version in this regard (barring the occasional person that allows you to put out a power that reduces damage).

    All that said, this effective match damage dealer is not very fun to play with.  He has one active ability and otherwise you are just matching tiles.  There's nothing very interesting about how to use him.  No strategy.

    Put him on a team with Rocket, a character that is now 27 months old, and yes, you will win fast.

    Boring.  The next step in passive winning.
  • RickOShayRickOShay Posts: 441 Mover and Shaker
    wymtime said:
    Thanos said:
    @Demiurge_Anthony Does his blue really need to cost 11 just for some tile destruction?
    It will also do damage from each tile that he destroys. He has a good chance of tanking his colors, so this should do pretty good damage (and ends up getting some sweet cascades too).


    Thanks for posting this.  You said he does some pretty good damage, but is 2134 direct damage strong for 11 AP in the 4* world?  To compare black cats green does 4570 damage plus a potential 2281 for a total of over 6800 damage for 6 AP s level 270.  For cascades you would need an extra 4K plus damage just to make up that difference and it costs 5 more AP?  

    From players perspective this is the way s lot of players look at this power and feel 11 AP is way too expensive and that as a developer you are over valuing board shake and potential cascades.

    It is overpriced I agree, I think it should cost 9 and have a bit more guaranteed damage.
    Now, we need to also consider how much cascade AP you gain from playing it. When you realize that you probably always get at least 3 AP and 6 to 9+ often, that makes this ability much better (on paper), a more reasonable Net cost.
    There is good value in choosing the column at power level 5 (I'm not yet convinced you would want to reduce his other powers though). 
    Also, he could have been designed to accelerate his blue, by gaining 1 blue AP when a condition happens. Or even better, if the cost is reduced by 1 each per condition. Perhaps the cost would get reduced by 1 when a match-4 happens against him, a friendly/enemy power is fired, teammate stunned, etc. I think expensive powers are fine when the character has a way to help fuel it.

    So, let's compare this to a few other board shake powers with some level of damage component, or -potential- damage and AP gains:
    Low to mid damage with cascade potential: Domino, Th4nos, Carnage, Venom, XFW, and Howard, green abilities, Quake blue. Most of these are less expensive, but do not necessarily guarantee more damage than Juggs.

    Color change or swap abilities with cascade potential: Medusa, Nightcrawler, Iceman, Hulkbuster, Sandman, more. Less expensive, but you may Gain nothing.

    TA Hulk: Medium damage for 13 green AP, requires 12 blue for big damage, targeted 3x3 block, fueled by passive (could be a great partner for Juggs). 

    Far superior: 
    Rogue red: for 12 AP she deals guaranteed damage, chosen 3x3, gains 9 AP and potentially more.
    Shuri green, Gwenpool purple, and many more of course.


    TLDR; Juggs 11 AP cost blue ability might be fair when considering potential cascade AP gains, but should have be designed with a way to reduce it's cost, or have higher guaranteed damage. 
  • jameshjamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    EDIT:  Juggs was an X-man a few years, at least, before he was changed during Fear Itself.  At that point, Xaver had thrown him out of the Xmen as irredeemable but for some reason had asked Luke Cage to make him a Thunderbolt.  (Comics logic!)  So he was a Thunderbolt when he transformed, and afterwards went into military custody.  He has been more of a chaotic force in later years vs a true villain and sometimes helps the heroes.

    At that point in time, the Thunderbolts team was essentially a work release program for inmates at The Raft.  Do a job for the government, get time taken off your sentence.  So Juggernaut was on the Thunderbolts because he was a prisoner.

  • Demiurge_AnthonyDemiurge_Anthony ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 155 Tile Toppler
    RickOShay said:
    Wow that match damage reduction is going to make him relevant against five star teams, as long as you can get him to tank a color or three.

    So one of the big questions remains, will Okoye add to his passive AOE damage?
    Juggernaut's power Collateral Damage will not activate Okoye's power Wakanda Forever as it is associated with making a match.
  • Demiurge_AnthonyDemiurge_Anthony ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 155 Tile Toppler
    Thanos said:
    @Demiurge_Anthony Does his blue really need to cost 11 just for some tile destruction?
    It will also do damage from each tile that he destroys. He has a good chance of tanking his colors, so this should do pretty good damage (and ends up getting some sweet cascades too).

    Here is a screenshot of lv 270 Juggernaut activating his blue power with 5 power levels.


    And this is the destruction and damage that it did.


    (everytime I see these screenshots, I have to check to make I am not leaking anything ><)
    How many times did you have to fire his blue to time the screenshot?
    I have the ability to slow down "time" on a dev build =)
  • Waddles_PinesWaddles_Pines Posts: 869 Critical Contributor
    So, hypothetically, would the game crash if it became a 1on 1 between new Juggernaut and Nightcrawler?  Or does the same condition on Okoye's power apply to Nightcrawler's AOE avoidance power?
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