Does Naru Meha need a nerf?

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  • Julie71
    Julie71 MTGPQ Mod Posts: 707 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2019
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    No
    andrewvanmarle said:
    <sarcasm mode>
    You know what, let's aks the devs to change all the cards to orchard spirits, if the game isn't balanced by then, well.... i don't know what.

    Oh another good idea: lets make it so you can only play one card per turn.
    <sarcasm mode off>

    Paper magic also has good cards and bad cards. It has combo's and inf. combos and people with small colections and people with large collections. The fun is to play around with that varied environment.

    Fixing an unwanted interaction is fine, because that implies a surgically precise change with a specific purpose in mind.  Nerfing is just hammering down a card because it is too strong (in the most general terms). Nerfing is never good, therefore NO

    Yeah what he said enough is is enough when a person doesn't like a specific card (whine) it's to strong let's make a dinosaur with no balls. Let's kill a sunbird combo,. Let's make bsz ineffective. Let's make is so we can't complete objectives in 5 rounds or kill a huge pve in 12 round. Rant over with. 
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yes
    Julie71 said:
    Tbt they already killed that one nerf combo with vi not casting if no opponent creatures are on the board.
    If you're talking about Vivien's Invocation I'm fairly certain that is a bug and not a nerf.  Big difference.

    And that card doesn't go infinite with anything except Naru as far as I know, so there's really no reason to nerf it at all.  Doesn't really seem relevant to this debate though.
  • Tengu316
    Tengu316 Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
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    No
    Instead of going through this whole discussion about infinity and combos and nerfing to stop them (which we all know will continue into infinity and beyond), why don't they just implement a deck size limit like in the paper game? Draw 60 cards (or maybe 100, since this is more EDH-ish), you lose. Apply it to the AI only, if that matters. 

    Just a thought. And it would move the meta away from combo-control and more into agro, which might even result in quicker (timewise) games.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yes
    Tengu316 said:
    Instead of going through this whole discussion about infinity and combos and nerfing to stop them (which we all know will continue into infinity and beyond), why don't they just implement a deck size limit like in the paper game? Draw 60 cards (or maybe 100, since this is more EDH-ish), you lose. Apply it to the AI only, if that matters. 

    Just a thought. And it would move the meta away from combo-control and more into agro, which might even result in quicker (timewise) games.
    That's been proposed before, especially with cards like Aven Mindsensor out there.  It would make a mill deck somewhat viable, which would be nice.

    Oktagon seems to have made all mill self-mill right now, though, with either cost increase or exile happening to your opponent.  That to me indicates that we aren't getting a library limit anytime soon, if at all.
  • Tengu316
    Tengu316 Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
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    No
    I'd love a mill deck. Heck, I'd love a version of 8-Rack! But beyond that, If there were to be a limit on the deck size and the number of copies of cards, wouldn't that solve the "infinity problem"? Any combos even trying to go after multiple copies would necessarily become more fragile as more cards would be needed to affect the combo. 

    I just think we need a better solution than beating the nerf drum -- it's going to just keep happening (you KNOW every set is going to have cards that are, at least, borderline stupid) and everybody stays all ginned up about it. Fixing the game if possible and fixing the cards if it's not seems a much better option.


  • Tengu316
    Tengu316 Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
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    No
    Take the case of Naru Meha. It copies an "controlled" etc, etc. So maybe make the game-change that "controlled" means "cast" or, given the format, "last spell cast" (copies are considered not "cast"). Might be too close to actually being stack-driven, but still...

    It's obvious you're passionate about nerfing.Me, I believe poorly designed cards are going to be a thing for the long-term and other changes than constantly nerfing them might be more beneficial. Is there no point in looking at options? Or is nerfing the only option?
  • Laeuftbeidir
    Laeuftbeidir Posts: 1,841 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Well.. If she just gave the mana to the spell and wouldn't be able to fill any copies she'd still keep true to how she was designed and be balanced.
    I personally don't like nerfs. But a two card combo that can win any turn? Some stuff is just degenerative by design
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,064 Chairperson of the Boards
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    No
    Tengu316 said:
    Instead of going through this whole discussion about infinity and combos and nerfing to stop them (which we all know will continue into infinity and beyond), why don't they just implement a deck size limit like in the paper game? Draw 60 cards (or maybe 100, since this is more EDH-ish), you lose. Apply it to the AI only, if that matters. 

    Just a thought. And it would move the meta away from combo-control and more into agro, which might even result in quicker (timewise) games.
    Library size becomes an issue with some of the PvE bosses who you really do need more than the 40 cards the current deck holds. 

    This is is where I support not being able to pull cards from a deck the game hasn’t generated due to drawing into it. If you try to fetch a 5th Naru, in this case, you simply fail to find one until you draw all 40 cards in your initial deck.

    They also have shown they’re very able to limit the number of a card that can be fetched without this much of an overhaul with the nerf the gave Legion Conquistador being unable to pull a 5th copy of itself, or even fewer if it dies and you attempt to cast one before generating a new library.  
  • Boogeyman
    Boogeyman Posts: 223 Tile Toppler
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    Yes
    Let me guess, all the "No's" are people that own her.  My dino Etali even got a nerf last round and he is waaaaayy more tame than Naru.  Why did they skip over this obvious issue?
  • Mcclaine
    Mcclaine Posts: 59 Match Maker
    edited June 2019
    Options
    No
    Boogeyman said:
    Let me guess, all the "No's" are people that own her.  My dino Etali even got a nerf last round and he is waaaaayy more tame than Naru.  Why did they skip over this obvious issue?
    No, I don't have the card but I voted no because I don't believe nerfing cards that have the potential to be a problem is good for the game as a whole.
    Most of the time, in my experience at least; I had a kill spell/beacon bolt etc ready when Greg played Naru Meha and it got too out of hand.  I'm willing to concede that I may have not been the subject of this combo as much as others and therefore more of an issue at later rank tiers.
    Furthermore, the game no longer allows you to go infinite with the card, thereby not progressing game state. If the LPS did not exist, I could see restricting the amount of copies it could make.
    Because it does, I don't see much reason to nerf a card when there are options to remove it at instant speed.
    If the argument is not that Greg is too powerful with the card combo and/or is breaking the game, and instead this combo is too powerful and wins too easily for players, I fail to see how it's for us to decide collectively what an individual decides to run in their deck to beat an AI opponent.
  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,612 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yes
    @Mcclaine - you do know that it takes up to 5 minutes for LPS to kick in, so you just sit there waiting for LPS to kick in.

    Further more, you do know that there is a combo that wins in the same round NM hits the table, so good luck with your kill spell.

    AFAIK, white is the only colour that has any chance of countering this combo and only in legacy, if memory serves, so have fun in standard, when this becomes to prolific.
  • Mcclaine
    Mcclaine Posts: 59 Match Maker
    edited June 2019
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    No
    Tremayne said:
    @Mcclaine - you do know that it takes up to 5 minutes for LPS to kick in, so you just sit there waiting for LPS to kick in.

    Further more, you do know that there is a combo that wins in the same round NM hits the table, so good luck with your kill spell.

    AFAIK, white is the only colour that has any chance of countering this combo and only in legacy, if memory serves, so have fun in standard, when this becomes to prolific.
    The LPS sucks but my argument is that there is a finite point where the game prevents you from casting any more. This prevents the game from running endlessly.

     I’m only aware of Naru+Quasi not the haste component.

    Sure you can use Sarkhan or a number of cards to grant haste but that’s a secondary component.

     If there is no haste you have a chance of getting rid of it with a typical spell.

     But let’s say for the sake of argument that it does attack on the same turn it’s cast.

     Then you have access to(in standard) Dream Eater in blue, pause for reflection in green, seal away in white(if your lucky), Merfolk trickster in blue again if your lucky, bedevil in red and black, and murder in black.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yes
    Mcclaine said:
    Tremayne said:
    @Mcclaine - you do know that it takes up to 5 minutes for LPS to kick in, so you just sit there waiting for LPS to kick in.

    Further more, you do know that there is a combo that wins in the same round NM hits the table, so good luck with your kill spell.

    AFAIK, white is the only colour that has any chance of countering this combo and only in legacy, if memory serves, so have fun in standard, when this becomes to prolific.
    The LPS sucks but my argument is that there is a finite point where the game prevents you from casting any more. This prevents the game from running endlessly.

     I’m only aware of Naru+Quasi not the haste component.

    Sure you can use Sarkhan or a number of cards to grant haste but that’s a secondary component.

     If there is no haste you have a chance of getting rid of it with a typical spell.

     But let’s say for the sake of argument that it does attack on the same turn it’s cast.

     Then you have access to(in standard) Dream Eater in blue, pause for reflection in green, seal away in white(if your lucky), Merfolk trickster in blue again if your lucky, bedevil in red and black, and murder in black.
    There are a half-dozen other spells besides Quasiduplicate that will go infinite with Naru (see earlier in this thread for the list).

    One or two of them will also allow you to give your new Naru stack haste, without adding any other cards that need to be out before you start it.

    That's why a lot of us think Naru needs a nerf.  Not because of one specific combo, but because she goes infinite with a variety of different cards (although the same general strategy)
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
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    Yes
    Naru is the most absurd loop engine ever seen in the game ... Is there any other card able to set an infinite combo and drop a theorically infinite power creature with only 2 cards in hand, without any luck involved ? 

    It was nerfed for the best ... I don't get why she was de-nerfed while BSZ or plague wind were nerfed, at least those ones had "limited" power. 
  • Mahric
    Mahric Posts: 8 Just Dropped In
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    No

    For me, it’s cards like Naru that make this such an interesting game. MTG has always had combo decks, it’s an important part of the game.



  • OmegaLolrus
    OmegaLolrus Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
    edited July 2019
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    Yes
    starfall said:
    Getting a lot of turn 2 kills in this TDW playing with Naru + Green Finale + Summoner's Pact + Chord of Calling.

    Anyone want to say the reason I want to nerf Naru is because I'm losing to it?
    Can I say it, even though it's obvious I'm being facetious?
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