Does Naru Meha need a nerf?

Mburn7

Well it appears the devs are finally listening to our opinions and nerfing problem cards.  So lets make more polls and argue about overpowered cards some more!

I've got extra popcorn lying around, so this is just what I need 

So, should Naru Meha be nerfed?  What do YOU think? (please say why and what nerf you think she needs if needed)

Mburn7

Yes

I've said it before and I'll say it here.

Straight-up infinite combos should not exist.
2 cards that instantly win you the game should not exist.

Therefore, Naru should be nerfed.  She should be the only card whose copies can't be cast the same turn they are created (and the card should be worded as such)

Dkrone

No

Your opinion, not everyone’s

wereotter

No

I've said before, but I'll repeat here too. I think the problem isn't explicitly Naru, I think it's how she interacts with quasiduplicate, and the better solution is to make it so quasiduplicate works more like it's paper counterpart, and can't copy a legendary creature. Or, that it can't copy a legendary creature you control.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Mburn7

Yes

wereotter said:

I've said before, but I'll repeat here too. I think the problem isn't explicitly Naru, I think it's how she interacts with quasiduplicate, and the better solution is to make it so quasiduplicate works more like it's paper counterpart, and can't copy a legendary creature. Or, that it can't copy a legendary creature you control.

This is the same issue we (not you and me, we as a collective) were just discussing with BSZ.

Quasiduplicate is only infinite with Naru.

Naru is infinite with:

Quasiduplicate

Chord of Calling

Deploy the Gatewatch

Siren's Ruse (not productive, but still infinite)

Vivien's Invocation (assuming it works properly)

Summoner's Pact (lol)

and probably one or two others I can't think of offhand.

So how would a nerf of just Quasiduplicate solve the problem of Naru going infinite?

Instead of nerfing a dozen different cards, lets just nerf one and cut the entire thing off

FindingHeart8

No

Why pursue cards or spending money on cards just to have them dilluted?

Whats wrong with enjoying a quick match? Not everyone has hours to sink into this game everyday.

Talks of nerfing went stale a long time ago, like we have some right to decide and nitpick the gameplay for the entire community. 

FindingHeart8

No

starfall said:

wereotter said:

I've said before, but I'll repeat here too. I think the problem isn't explicitly Naru, I think it's how she interacts with quasiduplicate, and the better solution is to make it so quasiduplicate works more like it's paper counterpart, and can't copy a legendary creature. Or, that it can't copy a legendary creature you control.

There's a number of spells she can go infinite with. Quasiduplicate; Chord of Calling; Deploy the Gatewatch (which to me seems particularly powerful); presumably Vivien's Invocation? (I've not tested that). Possibly more?

There is no infinite, the developers already dealt with that with the loop timer.

bk1234

No

FindingHeart8 said:

Why pursue cards or spending money on cards just to have them dilluted?

Whats wrong with enjoying a quick match? Not everyone has hours to sink into this game everyday.

Talks of nerfing went stale a long time ago, like we have a right to decide and nitpick the gameplay for the entire community.  It's not fair.

Was Naru a paid card? 

I just voted no because I like super broken cards. 

Mburn7

Yes

bken1234 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Why pursue cards or spending money on cards just to have them dilluted?

Whats wrong with enjoying a quick match? Not everyone has hours to sink into this game everyday.

Talks of nerfing went stale a long time ago, like we have a right to decide and nitpick the gameplay for the entire community.  It's not fair.

Was Naru a paid card? 

I just voted no because I like super broken cards. 

I think you just accidentally voted yes by admitting she's super broken

FindingHeart8

No

bken1234 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Why pursue cards or spending money on cards just to have them dilluted?

Whats wrong with enjoying a quick match? Not everyone has hours to sink into this game everyday.

Talks of nerfing went stale a long time ago, like we have a right to decide and nitpick the gameplay for the entire community.  It's not fair.

Was Naru a paid card? 

I just voted no because I like super broken cards. 

It's a point in general.  Vivian's Invocation was mentioned as a broken card previously and that was a purchasable card.

Furthermore, if any purchasable card is nerfed, will there be a refund offered?

And if only nonpurchasable cards are nerfed, doesn't that make the game more pay-to-win?

I also enjoy powerful cards, and I don't think we have a right, as just a handful of players from the community, to dictate the playing experience of the rest.  By pushing the developers to nerf every card they made that we don't personally like, we are doing just that.

Stormcrow

No

Mburn7 said:

Naru is infinite with:

Summoner's Pact (lol)

Technically not "infinite" unless you also have infinite life. An entertainingly elaborate way to kill yourself though.

Anyways, infinite loops have been a part of Magic since basically forever. Simply saying "it's potentially infinite" does not, to me, automatically mean it needs to be nerfed.

Look at that list of combos you posted. 6 cards. 1 of which will kill you, not your opponent. 1 of them just loops, forever, and doesn't actually do anything. 3 of them result in you getting an extremely large, unhasted, non-trampling, non-hexproof creature on the board, which, frankly, if you're gonna combo out that's a pretty unimpressive result. Sure it'll win next turn if the opponent can't do anything about it, but there's a zillion other cards and combos that'll get you that same result. I'd rather deal with Naru + Quasi than Zacama + Mirror March, any day of the week.

And then the last card on your list: there's Deploy, which, yes, Deploy can have insanely scary, OP results, but that's been true literally since the minute Deploy got added to the game. So maybe we should nerf Deploy instead of Naru, since by your own logic, Deploy is a problem with Omni and HUF and Naru and probably a bunch of other cards while Naru is really only a serious problem with Deploy.

Or we could just leave it alone cuz if the game has survived having Deploy around in its current form as long as it has maybe it's not actually that big an issue? Plus you know, it's Legacy.

Mcclaine

No

Asking for nerfs sets a bad precedent for the game because as the meta shifts in light of recent changes and based off paper standard rotation, our perception of what we consider broken shifts as well.

I was ambivalent about the BSZ changes because in the end, it is still a great card. And for as many matches as it won, I can count a number of matches per week that I didn't draw the card or it was discarded etc. and lost. I didn't see the card as oppressive, though I can understand why some would disagree. Naru Meha is not in the least as oppresive in comparison. Its a creature that's easily removed; change your strategy accordingly.

Ultimately it's not about what cards are "broken". Its about deciding what should or should not be restricted in the game. Brigby and D3/Oktagon will say that it was their decision to nerf BSZ based on data and I'll respect that. And perhaps they may also decide that Naru Meha deserves a nerf in light of data and forum feedback in the future. But where does it stop?

wereotter

No

starfall said:

wereotter said:

I've said before, but I'll repeat here too. I think the problem isn't explicitly Naru, I think it's how she interacts with quasiduplicate, and the better solution is to make it so quasiduplicate works more like it's paper counterpart, and can't copy a legendary creature. Or, that it can't copy a legendary creature you control.

There's a number of spells she can go infinite with. Quasiduplicate; Chord of Calling; Deploy the Gatewatch (which to me seems particularly powerful); presumably Vivien's Invocation? (I've not tested that). Possibly more?

I admit, I wasn't aware of the other spells looping with her, partially because I just don't try to make those types of decks and the only one I've encountered out in the wild or seen talked about is the Naru + Quasiduplicate deck (probably because they're both in blue and don't need specific planeswalkers to pull off)

I might be convinced if she does this with so many spells that she needs to be looked at. Though in general I also have been a long standing opponent against the infinite library fetching this game does, and regardless of the solution for her, I have always wanted to force players to draw all 40 cards in their deck to generate a new library if they want to fetch more copies of a card. So for say Chord of Calling, you'd only be able to fetch 4 of her in this scenario before you're then forced to draw all the rest of the cards in your deck to be able to fetch additional copies.

Though this also just goes back to the ongoing issues of the cards not being balanced around the ways this game works as opposed to their paper counterparts, and things that look fine on the surface end up being incredibly broken on practice.

Mburn7

Yes

I think there is a lot of confusion here about the topic of this poll.  I said does Naru NEED a nerf, not do you WANT Naru to be nerfed.

I didn't want BSZ to be nerfed, but I acknowledged that it needed one because it was super broken and meta warping and infinite (which are literally the criteria that the devs have stated for nerfing a card)

Naru has the same issue.  Sure, I like broken stuff as much as the next MTG player.  But she is able to combo infinitely and shows up in a large number of decks because of that.  By the devs' criteria that means she needs a nerf.  To me, its as simple as that.

Ampersand

No

IMO since we have LPS, there is no need to nerf Naru. If there was no LPS, I would agree that she needs a nerf.

James13

No

Does she NEED a nerf?  No.

I've noticed the game having a lot more anti-loop options.  That trend has continued into the WAR set.

EvilDead

Yes

Might as well start a poll for Omniscience while you're at it. 

Primeval's Glorious Rebirth is straight up just broken since it will place creatures that were not in the graveyard when it was cast, hence the Gisa Geralf nonsense in combination with the card.

I don't remember all the cards, but the stupid 200/200 Waterfall combination needs to be nerfed too since we're at it.

andrewvanmarle

No

<sarcasm mode>
You know what, let's aks the devs to change all the cards to orchard spirits, if the game isn't balanced by then, well.... i don't know what.

Oh another good idea: lets make it so you can only play one card per turn.
<sarcasm mode off>

Paper magic also has good cards and bad cards. It has combo's and inf. combos and people with small colections and people with large collections. The fun is to play around with that varied environment.

Fixing an unwanted interaction is fine, because that implies a surgically precise change with a specific purpose in mind.  Nerfing is just hammering down a card because it is too strong (in the most general terms). Nerfing is never good, therefore NO

Mburn7

Yes

EvilDead said:

Might as well start a poll for Omniscience while you're at it. 

Primeval's Glorious Rebirth is straight up just broken since it will place creatures that were not in the graveyard when it was cast, hence the Gisa Geralf nonsense in combination with the card.

I don't remember all the cards, but the stupid 200/200 Waterfall combination needs to be nerfed too since we're at it.

Omni has been discussed several times as well, and is equally split in opinion.  Luckily Greg can't really use it well so its not super problematic.

Rebirth is definitely a bug, so once that is eventually fixed it'll be fine.

As for the Waterveil combo, I'm less sure that needs a nerf, for the same reason the Rashmi/Baral/Jhoira/Munda loop decks are probably fine.  Its a nasty combo, sure, but you need to make an entire deck based around it for it to work well.  What made BSZ and makes Naru so powerful is you just need 2 cards to go crazy, with the rest able to be whatever you need to meet objectives and/or end the game quickly.andrewvanmarle said:

You know what, let's aks the devs to change all the cards to orchard spirits, if the game isn't balanced by then, well.... i don't know what.

Ah, I love a good straw man.  Nobody is saying all cards need to suck to be balanced.  All we're saying is that cards should not be able to combo infinitely with one or two other cards.  If you disagree that's fine but please use a proper argument next time.

bobby_2613

No

*Sigh* The infinite loop here is always the same people asking for cards to be nerfed... :rolling_eyes: