Does Naru Meha need a nerf?

Machine

Don't Care

I tried to stay neutral in this discussion, even after several hits by a gazillion powered Naru. But now someone had the balls to also use this combo in the Emrakul's Corruption event on the werewolf node (who cares about secondary objectives, right?) and instantly blow my game away. So I'd like to revise my opinion and say this card needs a nerf. A single card that is able to one shot you out of the blue (no matter what the board state is) is just absurd. Change it so that the fetched spell only gains half, three quarters, or whatever mana as long as it doesn't get full mana.

Note: I don't own Naru myself, but if I get her, I will try at least a few of these infinite combos myself (if she hasn't been nerfed by then).

Edit: with a single card I (of course) mean a single card that combos with a handful of other spells to instantly kill you.

Theophilus

No

Back when I voted no, this combo was extremely rare and only really used by degenerates. To borrow a baseball term, it's bush league. It's obviously not against the rules to use it, but doing so sort of reveals the character of the player. The combo is lazy, stupid simple, and the repetitive tapping is extremely boring. Unfortunately, so many people have resorted to this mindless combination that I think it is time for a nerf. 

If you have to run this combo to win on a regular basis, there is no way you are having fun doing it. Please, just find a different game to play.

In the meantime, change my vote to yes.

Mcclaine

No

While I'm not changing my stance, because even though I ran into a few in RTO I was still able to deal with them and the annoyance of waiting, I would like to offer what I'd want to see if it does get nerfed.

It's clear by now that MTGPQ has some leeway in what a card does in the game, and can turn an unplayable card in MTG into a top tier card in this game. Given the Mana system with the Match 3 gameplay, It wouldn't be unreasonable for them to modify the card text to have the copied card gain half mana.

It would still likely go off in ramp and blue decks, but it would remove the consistency of the deck without removing it as an option for players to use entirely.

Boogeyman

Yes

Just lost a ranked match to Naru loop.   two cards... Naru and finale of devastation.  haste and loop.  Bit did NOT stop the loop and kept looping for 470 damage.  

Fun...?

BTW, I even had a flash kill ready.  She was hexproof as well...  Maybe because of the node buff.

Narcoticsagent

Yes

I just played against a naru deck in 4 put of 5 of the nodes on my last dragon war event. I won all of them but only because  greg is really bad at playing naru. I think it's probably a bad sign when one card is getting played in every node and at such a high rate.

Quantius

I vote yes. I don't have a problem with combo or looping decks (I love them myself), but they *should* require some amount of set up, not just I cast Naru and go infinite because I'm holding the right card. That's not even a two cards combo because one of the cards isn't even in play.

One of the challenges in building combos decks in mtg is that they are often delicate to some degree and require protection or speed and have various moving pieces to keep track of. Naru Meha in mtgpq skips all the work and just combos because it exists. That's dumb.

I don't mind Thousand Year Storm combos because they require a support to be out, and the multiple spells to be cast to build up reinforcements and then you have to manage limited hand-space, but you can loop an opponent to death in a single turn, it just takes a ton more work.

Azerack

No

You know, this could all be dealt with better if the AI had no control over the loop prevention and only the Player did. 
But apparently they don't want to look into THAT, because.. I don't know. 

(typing this as I watch the AI Naru loop for the THIRD go.. )

LordDorwin

Yes

I keep count of my matches, and I must be extraordinarily unlucky if the majority of the player base has only seen this "once or twice"

I have faced the Naruplicate exploit 33 times since I began annotating it as an aberration, similar to softlocks, software crashes and card bugs.  8 had haste and I was able to stop 11 with kill spells.

I suppose the fact that my cellphone has retained structural integrity is some tribute to my patience.

Because I think Naruplicate is an exploit rather than simply an overpowered card, I think the term "correction" or "preventative measure" should be used rather than "Nerf".

The reason I consider it an exploit rather than a problem combo(unlike the variety of Blue Sun's Zenith decks popular a while ago) is the fact that it is a perversion of the intended purpose of the loop timer.

Were there no loop timer, this discussion would not take place, as playing Naruplicate would simply force you to quit and lose the match and fix the deck you put no thought into building the moment you got tired of watching it run.

However, the loop timer kindly gives you a big creature and the option to further enlarge it instead.  As befits the principle of fairness, the computer is given that very same choice.  (This is what makes the argument "but we have the LPS" either a snide sarcasm or simply ignorant).

Now, because the problem lies with Naru Meha(she can do this trick with a variety of cards, not just one), there are several remedies:

1: Let me deal with the proposal (hopefully made in jest) that her power be reduced to that of an Orchard Spirit.  This would change nothing but the rate at which the Naru-stack increases in power - a one-shot kill of any enemy is still possible, but would take longer.

2: Make any loop containing Naru exempt from the timer.  This would greatly reduce it's appeal, but the attraction of the card for antisocial elements to troll others with would remain.

3. Alter the card's programming and text, making it either a) impossible to copy or b) impossible to cast more than once per turn.(I personally am in favour of the second option)

4. Ban the card from PvP competition.  This would be similar to paper Magic's Restricted List.  I don't really think this is a good option, because there is no such tradition in PQ and because software has the advantage of being correctable after release.

5.  Making the library finite, with exhaustion thereof constituting a defeat.  This would radically change the entire game, and a lot of innocuous cards were written with the assumption of an infinite library.  It would also be a lot of work to do.  The results would be interesting to see, though.

There is also this option:

Change the card text and programming to "If you have one or more of (list of spells which can copy Naru and give her mana) in your deck, your opponent forfeits the game." (You can then add the original card text in case there is no such spell present).  This would satisfy some people, make the "matches" faster and remove the illusion of gameplay or skill conferred at the moment.

Notes:

1.  Where the term "Naruplicate" was used above, the reference is to the use of Naru Meha Master Wizard along with a copy or fetch spell with mana sufficient to fill said creature in such a way that a potentially infinite loop is forced to occur. (The use of Quasiduplicate is not a necessity, in other words.)

2.  The existence of other problematic card combinations or cards, flaws in gameplay and duration of loading of the game may be of interest or concern, but are not under discussion and not arguments for or against this issue.

3. Thank you to the person who made the poll, I attempted not only to give my opinion but point out possible avenues towards correcting this situation.

Gunmix25

Yes

LordDorwin said:

I keep count of my matches, and I must be extraordinarily unlucky if the majority of the player base has only seen this "once or twice"

I have faced the Naruplicate exploit 33 times since I began annotating it as an aberration, similar to softlocks, software crashes and card bugs.  8 had haste and I was able to stop 11 with kill spells.

I suppose the fact that my cellphone has retained structural integrity is some tribute to my patience.

Because I think Naruplicate is an exploit rather than simply an overpowered card, I think the term "correction" or "preventative measure" should be used rather than "Nerf".

The reason I consider it an exploit rather than a problem combo(unlike the variety of Blue Sun's Zenith decks popular a while ago) is the fact that it is a perversion of the intended purpose of the loop timer.

Were there no loop timer, this discussion would not take place, as playing Naruplicate would simply force you to quit and lose the match and fix the deck you put no thought into building the moment you got tired of watching it run.

However, the loop timer kindly gives you a big creature and the option to further enlarge it instead.  As befits the principle of fairness, the computer is given that very same choice.  (This is what makes the argument "but we have the LPS" either a snide sarcasm or simply ignorant).

Now, because the problem lies with Naru Meha(she can do this trick with a variety of cards, not just one), there are several remedies:

1: Let me deal with the proposal (hopefully made in jest) that her power be reduced to that of an Orchard Spirit.  This would change nothing but the rate at which the Naru-stack increases in power - a one-shot kill of any enemy is still possible, but would take longer.

2: Make any loop containing Naru exempt from the timer.  This would greatly reduce it's appeal, but the attraction of the card for antisocial elements to troll others with would remain.

3. Alter the card's programming and text, making it either a) impossible to copy or b) impossible to cast more than once per turn.(I personally am in favour of the second option)

4. Ban the card from PvP competition.  This would be similar to paper Magic's Restricted List.  I don't really think this is a good option, because there is no such tradition in PQ and because software has the advantage of being correctable after release.

5.  Making the library finite, with exhaustion thereof constituting a defeat.  This would radically change the entire game, and a lot of innocuous cards were written with the assumption of an infinite library.  It would also be a lot of work to do.  The results would be interesting to see, though.

There is also this option:

Change the card text and programming to "If you have one or more of (list of spells which can copy Naru and give her mana) in your deck, your opponent forfeits the game." (You can then add the original card text in case there is no such spell present).  This would satisfy some people, make the "matches" faster and remove the illusion of gameplay or skill conferred at the moment.

Notes:

1.  Where the term "Naruplicate" was used above, the reference is to the use of Naru Meha Master Wizard along with a copy or fetch spell with mana sufficient to fill said creature in such a way that a potentially infinite loop is forced to occur. (The use of Quasiduplicate is not a necessity, in other words.)

2.  The existence of other problematic card combinations or cards, flaws in gameplay and duration of loading of the game may be of interest or concern, but are not under discussion and not arguments for or against this issue.

3. Thank you to the person who made the poll, I attempted not only to give my opinion but point out possible avenues towards correcting this situation.

Personally I think a slight adjustment to the wording would fix it.

"When this creature enters the battlefield, If the first spell in your hand is not a copy, create a copy of that spell and it gains full mana. Move the spell that was copied to the bottom of your hand. Other Wizards you control get +2/+2."

Unknown

This content has been removed.

KingGrace

No

I've been playing this game almost daily for something like three years. I play EDH in paper and expect game ending combos more often than not.

It's annoying to lose to BSZ combos, sure. I once waited over ten minutes to lose a match because of BSZ infinite combos (Before the loop timer) I have also built several non-Naru related, Loop Timer causing combos in colors not including blue, but red because Hazoret's Undying Fury is absolutely nuts. Haven't seen talk of nerfing that, but I'm new to these forums and the talk of nerfing caused this first ever post.

It sounds like many or most of the forum members have spent some money on the game. I have not, I'm just a grinder because I love MtG and match three. It's literally the only mobile game I play so long as I have internet access. I have never seen a Naruplicate combo. If I'm going to lose to another player's 'giant combo' deck, I just want to lose fast and get to the next match. Complaining about a single card when CPU match RNG is a larger problem (IMHO: Solved by having "Difficulty Levels" annotated) is infantile.

Legacy events should enjoy the full breadth of play. I crush 97%+ of my matches having put exactly zero dollars into the game, and I'll continue to do so. 35 meetings with a Naru combo compared to how many matches you actually played is probably not a high percentage. I can take Kiora or Samut and consistently win in 5 turns or less, should they also be nerfed? 

My sole opinion is that anyone upset about losses to arbitrary and infinite combos is probably a little salty their k/d was slightly affected. Paper Magic is true PvP and they ban cards because the meta warps around them. That is not prevalent in MtGPQ. Not in my experience. Even those BSZ combos didn't happen often.

Players shouldn't be punished because they found a combo that wins them games, especially if they paid money to obtain them. If there becomes precedent set of nerfing Magic: the Gathering cards, then it might as well be Hearthstone. There's literally nothing stopping you from forfeiting, commonly referred to as scooping, and going to the next match.

I get salty, too, sometimes. Then I shuffle up and Rusev crush the next 8 opponents and get my smile back...

Lighten up, it's just a game.

Caeman

Yes

Just make any copied spell unable to cast on the same turn. I do recall that this Naru Nerf was implemented, and frankly, I do think it was a fair nerf.
Also, the loop prevention is only useful if it actually stops the loop; there have been several times where the loop counter has recently appeared three times in a turn and Greg has opted to allow the loop to continue.

Gunmix25

Yes

KingGrace said:

I've been playing this game almost daily for something like three years. I play EDH in paper and expect game ending combos more often than not.

It's annoying to lose to BSZ combos, sure. I once waited over ten minutes to lose a match because of BSZ infinite combos (Before the loop timer) I have also built several non-Naru related, Loop Timer causing combos in colors not including blue, but red because Hazoret's Undying Fury is absolutely nuts. Haven't seen talk of nerfing that, but I'm new to these forums and the talk of nerfing caused this first ever post.

It sounds like many or most of the forum members have spent some money on the game. I have not, I'm just a grinder because I love MtG and match three. It's literally the only mobile game I play so long as I have internet access. I have never seen a Naruplicate combo. If I'm going to lose to another player's 'giant combo' deck, I just want to lose fast and get to the next match. Complaining about a single card when CPU match RNG is a larger problem (IMHO: Solved by having "Difficulty Levels" annotated) is infantile.

Legacy events should enjoy the full breadth of play. I crush 97%+ of my matches having put exactly zero dollars into the game, and I'll continue to do so. 35 meetings with a Naru combo compared to how many matches you actually played is probably not a high percentage. I can take Kiora or Samut and consistently win in 5 turns or less, should they also be nerfed? 

My sole opinion is that anyone upset about losses to arbitrary and infinite combos is probably a little salty their k/d was slightly affected. Paper Magic is true PvP and they ban cards because the meta warps around them. That is not prevalent in MtGPQ. Not in my experience. Even those BSZ combos didn't happen often.

Players shouldn't be punished because they found a combo that wins them games, especially if they paid money to obtain them. If there becomes precedent set of nerfing Magic: the Gathering cards, then it might as well be Hearthstone. There's literally nothing stopping you from forfeiting, commonly referred to as scooping, and going to the next match.

I get salty, too, sometimes. Then I shuffle up and Rusev crush the next 8 opponents and get my smile back...

Lighten up, it's just a game.

The problem is that what we often call "infinite" as in the case of the BSZ (pre-loop prevention) are actually not infinite but they are long loops that do end. I for one think that long loops should be left alone. In the case of Naru Meha's loop though it repeats infinitely and without the loop prevention system in place, it would require a player to force quit the match. Having a combo that requires intervention on the behalf of the app is not a strategy and oddly it abuses the very system that was created to stop such things. I see it much like the Jace/Floodwaters combo years ago, not really breaking the game but are taking advantage of something that technically should not be occurring in the first place. In paper, such combos would be banned. We obviously cannot do that here.

KingGrace

No

In the case of Naru Meha's loop though it repeats infinitely and without the loop prevention system in place, it would require a player to force quit the match...

... I see it much like the Jace/Floodwaters combo years ago, not really breaking the game but are taking advantage of something that technically should not be occurring in the first place...

I guess I've lucked out and never experienced these Naru loop abuses. I will say, having forgotten what cards were interacting with BSZ, the loop was without doubt unending, but a card was included to also cause damage, though painfully slow. I'll just keep Hulk Smashing until I run into it and I can check the battle log (provided there's a loop interrupt)

Maybe, if I'm lucky, I can pick up one of the abusive cards that aren't "pay to play" cards and I can abuse this Greg person I keep reading about. Hazoret's Undying Fury is still too easy to abuse. It's the only red spell I run in any red deck and Uh...Way...Wee... Gooooooo!

Mburn7

Yes

KingGrace said:

In the case of Naru Meha's loop though it repeats infinitely and without the loop prevention system in place, it would require a player to force quit the match...

... I see it much like the Jace/Floodwaters combo years ago, not really breaking the game but are taking advantage of something that technically should not be occurring in the first place...

I guess I've lucked out and never experienced these Naru loop abuses. I will say, having forgotten what cards were interacting with BSZ, the loop was without doubt unending, but a card was included to also cause damage, though painfully slow. I'll just keep Hulk Smashing until I run into it and I can check the battle log (provided there's a loop interrupt)

Maybe, if I'm lucky, I can pick up one of the abusive cards that aren't "pay to play" cards and I can abuse this Greg person I keep reading about. Hazoret's Undying Fury is still too easy to abuse. It's the only red spell I run in any red deck and Uh...Way...Wee... Gooooooo!

Greg is our nickname for the game's AI.  It makes him a bit more fun lol.

As for HUF, that's a legacy card.  Legacy is a dumping ground of all sorts of infinite combos and turn 2 wins.  The devs (and players) seem to have more or less accepted that as being ok (similar to paper magic, actually).

The issue with Naru is she is standard legal (for a few more months, anyway) and much cheaper and simpler than most of the Legacy combos that already exist.  BSZ also had that issue before it was nerfed, now it is just a really powerful spell that can't really go infinite anymore.

KingGrace

No

Greg is our nickname for the game's AI.  It makes him a bit more fun lol.

As for HUF, that's a legacy card.  Legacy is a dumping ground of all sorts of infinite combos and turn 2 wins.  The devs (and players) seem to have more or less accepted that as being ok (similar to paper magic, actually).

The issue with Naru is she is standard legal (for a few more months, anyway) and much cheaper and simpler than most of the Legacy combos that already exist.  BSZ also had that issue before it was nerfed, now it is just a really powerful spell that can't really go infinite anymore.

I've mostly been utilizing Surveil and Flip Bolas for standard, and haven't run into the combo decks. I still don't advocate nerfing Naru, but I definitely understand better why others do. Thanks! Gotta look up another thing about Greg being a Richie because he can see trap tiles, but I can't see his.

Thanks again

Narcoticsagent

Yes

I've thought about this quite a bit and I think I would change my vote from yes to no.

 I think she should just be banned in standard PVP. In PVE it doesnt matter how broke she is. In legacy shes not more broke than a lot of other thing and for legacy I think that's ok.

I absolutely loathe the the idea of changing the game mechanics to make copies unplayable on the turn they are made. I cant even wrap my head around the idea of changing the rules of the whole game nerfing numerous cards and cutting off chunks off design space just to avoid fixing or banning one card. 

I am still salty about Baral being nerfed and that happened years ago. In paper magic if a card ends up being too disruptive it gets banned in the formats its causing problems in. WOTC does doesnt use errata to change the cards function they just oops our bad and ban it. I think this is a much better solution.

Azerack

No

"Forget the shoe, follow the gourd!"...

Sorry, Life of Brian quote for anyone paying attention...

I'm still sticking with the following for either vote:

1. YES - Make her copies unplayable until the next turn.
2. NO - Give the loop prevention controls entirely to the player, not the AI.

Either one will resolve the headache that Naru causes, IMHO. Now I'm both Yes AND No, whichever works..

Brigby

*Closing this thread as Naru Meha will be adjusted in the 3.8 update, therefore older comments may no longer be relevant or applicable to the conversation.*

If you would like to discuss "Post-3.8 Naru Meha", then please create a new thread, so all comments can be up-to-date. Thank you for understanding!