Does Naru Meha need a nerf?

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  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
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    Yes
    bken1234 said:
    Boogeyman said:
    Just played a Naru.  I had full health... 132.  AI had 20 health.  They played Naru.  Looper timer kept going despite the limit.  Got up to 200+ with haste and killed me.  AI played 2 cards, haste and naru.  Game over.

    NERF
    So how often does AI have Naru and haste. Like how many times a day does this happen to you? Because it’s never happened to me. 

    This rare thing warrants a nerf because you’re mad at a loss? 

    Last RaW; Greg dropped 2 GR on Turn 1 and another on turn 2. He was playing Samut. I was straight mana denied and dead on turn 3. 

    This happens to me once every 3 weeks or so with some form of Samut aggro and / or GR — they’re each extremely powerful on their own or together. I’ve never cried for a nerf. 

    This game has powerful cards, powerful PW, together and separate, sometimes the stars align, often Greg plays them jus meh— but we should really move out of the habit of screaming for a nerf every time we lose to fun and cool combos because this thing you experienced — it isn’t a norm. It’s just a thing in an RNG game. 
    The difference is, of course, that the "normal" example you described requires some very specific luck to happen (opponent needs to have 2-4 copies of GR in their opening hand and also get two massive cascades) while most "broken" loops/cards that we ask to be nerfed (specifically Naru in this case) only require you to have 1 or two specific cards in hand (1 copy) and any amount of time to gain mana.  A GR blitz will only really be that effective turn 1 or 2 (unless you're deck has no ways to deal with it at all), while the Naru loop can instantly win any game at any time with any board state (unless you happen to have a charged flash kill spell in your hand at the exact right time)

    Harness the Storm was nerfed because it allowed you to make an infinitely large stack of Devil Tokens in one turn
    Baral was nerfed because he allowed you to cast an infinite number of spells each turn
    Season's Past was nerfed because it allowed you to cast and re-cast an infinite amount of stuff each turn
    Blue Sun's Zenith was nerfed because it allowed you to cast an infinite amount of stuff each turn
    Skysnare Spider was nerfed because a 12/12 for 16 mana was too much
    Torrential Gearhulk was nerfed before it was even released because it would have allowed you to cast an infinite number of spells giving you an infinite number of creatures in one turn

    But Naru Meha, who gives you a 200/200 haste creature after casting an infinite number of spells giving you an infinite number of creatures in one turn doesn't need a nerf?

    Something doesn't make sense to me here.
    (note I use infinite here to mean "arbitrarily large" and not actually infinite)
  • Boogeyman
    Boogeyman Posts: 223 Tile Toppler
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    Yes
    bken1234 said:
    Boogeyman said:
    Just played a Naru.  I had full health... 132.  AI had 20 health.  They played Naru.  Looper timer kept going despite the limit.  Got up to 200+ with haste and killed me.  AI played 2 cards, haste and naru.  Game over.

    NERF
    So how often does AI have Naru and haste. Like how many times a day does this happen to you? Because it’s never happened to me. 

    This rare thing warrants a nerf because you’re mad at a loss? 


    I am mad ya :)  Although I like quick ways to win.  This is not fair in so many ways, especially in legacy tournaments.  If people wanted to play it against the AI... fine.  But against other people who do not have access to the card... nope.
  • Narcoticsagent
    Narcoticsagent Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
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    Yes
    Harness the Storm was nerfed because it allowed you to make an infinitely large stack of Devil Tokens in one turn
    Baral was nerfed because he allowed you to cast an infinite number of spells each turn
    Season's Past was nerfed because it allowed you to cast and re-cast an infinite amount of stuff each turn
    Blue Sun's Zenith was nerfed because it allowed you to cast an infinite amount of stuff each turn
    Skysnare Spider was nerfed because a 12/12 for 16 mana was too much
    Torrential Gearhulk was nerfed before it was even released because it would have allowed you to cast an infinite number of spells giving you an infinite number of creatures in one turn


    One of these things if definitely not like the others.

  • IM_CARLOS
    IM_CARLOS Posts: 640 Critical Contributor
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    Yes
    I vote yes because to powerful combos poisoning the meta.

    Baral, cycling, btz+expase... there were still a game after nerf. 

    Change keep the game interesting. Doing the same over and over again is just boring. 

    If a combination is way to strong not even a new set with 200 cards will change a bit.

    I am fine with gone machine like baral. I saw here working for way to long to be entertained. 
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yes
    Narcoticsagent said:
    Harness the Storm was nerfed because it allowed you to make an infinitely large stack of Devil Tokens in one turn
    Baral was nerfed because he allowed you to cast an infinite number of spells each turn
    Season's Past was nerfed because it allowed you to cast and re-cast an infinite amount of stuff each turn
    Blue Sun's Zenith was nerfed because it allowed you to cast an infinite amount of stuff each turn
    Skysnare Spider was nerfed because a 12/12 for 16 mana was too much
    Torrential Gearhulk was nerfed before it was even released because it would have allowed you to cast an infinite number of spells giving you an infinite number of creatures in one turn


    One of these things if definitely not like the others.

    You're right, harness is the only support :D

    But seriously, I included the spider because i find it funny that a 12/12 for 16 is way too overpowered but a 200/200 for 16 is perfectly reasonable
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
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    No
    The concept is the same. Both require specific OP cards and combos. It wasn’t simply a GR and s Samut that made that happen. There were definitely some (less OP than other sets) gem changers helping things along.  

    But there’s some important points here:

    1. This loop is not as prevalent as a very small minority wants everyone to think. If I’ve come across it, I honestly can’t remember, and trust me I can tell you all the combos I have issues with. No one has complained for almost a month. 

    2. There is a great way to stop it. Flash. If you’re playing an event where you see it a lot, include it. Some other ways are discard and disable. This is basic stuff we should all be using anyway. 

    3. It’s rotating out of Standard in the next block rotation — and already isn’t in the RaW deck restrictions. Do we want to keep pushing this as a priority over other priorities? Especially when we see ok with so many other really really broken things in legacy?  Or should we Flash it now and send it to the legacy land of OP broken things in a few months? 

    4.  Bugs, everyone, bugs... Nerf Naru or fix bugs? What should we shout louder about? Where are our priorities? (See #3) 
  • Heartstone
    Heartstone Posts: 233 Tile Toppler
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    No
    No need to nerf Naru. Once in a while, you have a "Naru with haste,", but mostly, you have time to kill her before she attacks. The most annoying part is that you have to wait for the loop to end, but that's not enough to need a nerf
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yes
    bken1234 said:
    The concept is the same. Both require specific OP cards and combos. It wasn’t simply a GR and s Samut that made that happen. There were definitely some (less OP than other sets) gem changers helping things along.  

    But there’s some important points here:

    1. This loop is not as prevalent as a very small minority wants everyone to think. If I’ve come across it, I honestly can’t remember, and trust me I can tell you all the combos I have issues with. No one has complained for almost a month. 

    2. There is a great way to stop it. Flash. If you’re playing an event where you see it a lot, include it. Some other ways are discard and disable. This is basic stuff we should all be using anyway. 

    3. It’s rotating out of Standard in the next block rotation — and already isn’t in the RaW deck restrictions. Do we want to keep pushing this as a priority over other priorities? Especially when we see ok with so many other really really broken things in legacy?  Or should we Flash it now and send it to the legacy land of OP broken things in a few months? 

    4.  Bugs, everyone, bugs... Nerf Naru or fix bugs? What should we shout louder about? Where are our priorities? (See #3) 
    You of all people should realize that the "but bugs are a bigger issue" argument is at best useless and at worse completely irrelevant to pointing out a different issue.  If you don't want anyone posting anything other than "please fix the bugs" on the forums than there's a problem here.

    And flash is only a good way to stop it if you happen to be playing a black walker (since that's the only color with a useful flash way to beat it in standard.  I agree Naru isn't a serious a problem in Legacy).  Also, all the flash spells in the world aren't enough to stop a 200/200 haste if you don't happen to have on charged in hand at that exact moment.

    Also also, since we are now well over a month late getting M20 here, it'll probably be at least 4-6 months until next rotation.  That's more than enough time to warrant a busted card getting made slightly less busted (see:  BSZ)
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
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    No
    Mburn7 said:
    bken1234 said:
    The concept is the same. Both require specific OP cards and combos. It wasn’t simply a GR and s Samut that made that happen. There were definitely some (less OP than other sets) gem changers helping things along.  

    But there’s some important points here:

    1. This loop is not as prevalent as a very small minority wants everyone to think. If I’ve come across it, I honestly can’t remember, and trust me I can tell you all the combos I have issues with. No one has complained for almost a month. 

    2. There is a great way to stop it. Flash. If you’re playing an event where you see it a lot, include it. Some other ways are discard and disable. This is basic stuff we should all be using anyway. 

    3. It’s rotating out of Standard in the next block rotation — and already isn’t in the RaW deck restrictions. Do we want to keep pushing this as a priority over other priorities? Especially when we see ok with so many other really really broken things in legacy?  Or should we Flash it now and send it to the legacy land of OP broken things in a few months? 

    4.  Bugs, everyone, bugs... Nerf Naru or fix bugs? What should we shout louder about? Where are our priorities? (See #3) 
    You of all people should realize that the "but bugs are a bigger issue" argument is at best useless and at worse completely irrelevant to pointing out a different issue.  If you don't want anyone posting anything other than "please fix the bugs" on the forums than there's a problem here.


    “Me of all people” 

    Please explain? 
  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,612 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
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    Yes
    Why did I run out of popcorn today of all days?!?
    This seems to be turning in to a fantastic fight.
  • Mcclaine
    Mcclaine Posts: 59 Match Maker
    Options
    No
    Mburn7 said:
    bken1234 said:
    The concept is the same. Both require specific OP cards and combos. It wasn’t simply a GR and s Samut that made that happen. There were definitely some (less OP than other sets) gem changers helping things along.  

    But there’s some important points here:

    1. This loop is not as prevalent as a very small minority wants everyone to think. If I’ve come across it, I honestly can’t remember, and trust me I can tell you all the combos I have issues with. No one has complained for almost a month. 

    2. There is a great way to stop it. Flash. If you’re playing an event where you see it a lot, include it. Some other ways are discard and disable. This is basic stuff we should all be using anyway. 

    3. It’s rotating out of Standard in the next block rotation — and already isn’t in the RaW deck restrictions. Do we want to keep pushing this as a priority over other priorities? Especially when we see ok with so many other really really broken things in legacy?  Or should we Flash it now and send it to the legacy land of OP broken things in a few months? 

    4.  Bugs, everyone, bugs... Nerf Naru or fix bugs? What should we shout louder about? Where are our priorities? (See #3) 

    And flash is only a good way to stop it if you happen to be playing a black walker (since that's the only color with a useful flash way to beat it in standard.  I agree Naru isn't a serious a problem in Legacy).  Also, all the flash spells in the world aren't enough to stop a 200/200 haste if you don't happen to have on charged in hand at that exact moment.

    Just because you need to have flash charged doesn't mean its not a useful solution. And I posted a list of cards with Flash earlier in the thread.
    Dream Eater can bounce the  200/200 which is obviously Blue. Murder is a given in Black, but Bedevil works if you are in Red and is much less mana intensive than the sphinx.  I'm not clear on whether both sides of Status/Statue have flash. If it did, Statue would be a decent card for Green. Angel of Grace(White) could also buy you a turn if Naru Meha doesn't have trample. 
    If you were really desperate, you could use Pause for Reflection(Green), Seal Away(White), or Merfolk Trickster(Blue) to buy you a turn, but these aren't cards I'd want to rely on. 
    Finally, if you were lucky at slots, Teferi, Time Raveler can make any spell in your hand have flash.
    I've come across Naru Meha maybe 2-3 in the last month, and only once was it allowed to go off and lose me a game.
  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
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    No
    What do Impetuous Devils, Paladin of Atonement, Gaea's Revenge, Dreadhorde Butcher, Scabcan Berserker and a 200/200 Naru with Haste have in common?

    They're all going to kill you on the turn you cast them if your life is low enough and deck isn't built to deal with haste. 

    Maybe haste is the problem. 

    Nerf haste. 

    Or get rid of haste supports like Mirror March and Hazoret's Favor?

    I think I'll stick with my original answer -- follow good principles of deck building and build against haste. 
    The card isn't the problem. I don't want Oktagon wasting their time on it. I want bugs fixed. 

  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yes
    bken1234 said:
    What do Impetuous Devils, Paladin of Atonement, Gaea's Revenge, Dreadhorde Butcher, Scabcan Berserker and a 200/200 Naru with Haste have in common?

    They're all going to kill you on the turn you cast them if your life is low enough and deck isn't built to deal with haste. 

    Maybe haste is the problem. 

    Nerf haste. 

    Or get rid of haste supports like Mirror March and Hazoret's Favor?

    I think I'll stick with my original answer -- follow good principles of deck building and build against haste. 
    The card isn't the problem. I don't want Oktagon wasting their time on it. I want bugs fixed. 

    Ooh our second Straw Man of this debate.  Keep em coming.

    But I don't feel like repeating the same arguments another million times, so I'll just say this again:

    A card that enables a player to gain infinite power/damage/draw/mana in one turn should be nerfed.  That is the criteria that has been used since the beginning of the game (I posted some notable examples a few posts up).

    I see nothing special about the Naru loop that makes it immune from this criteria.  Therefore she should be nerfed.

    I never said that all cards should suck.  I never said that any card that can every unexpectedly kill you should be nerfed.  I never even said that I want Naru to be nerfed.  All I'm saying is that Naru Meha should be nerfed based on how this game treats infinite combos.
  • Stormcrow
    Stormcrow Posts: 462 Mover and Shaker
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    No
    Mburn7 said:

    A card that enables a player to gain infinite power/damage/draw/mana in one turn should be nerfed.
    So why don't we have a 5-page thread about Mirror March yet?
    Mburn7 said:

      That is the criteria that has been used since the beginning of the game (I posted some notable examples a few posts up).

    I see nothing special about the Naru loop that makes it immune from this criteria.  Therefore she should be nerfed.

    I never said that all cards should suck.  I never said that any card that can every unexpectedly kill you should be nerfed.  I never even said that I want Naru to be nerfed.  All I'm saying is that Naru Meha should be nerfed based on how this game treats infinite combos.

    Look, if you personally don't like infinite loops, fine. But to say "this game has always nerfed every card that can potentially go infinite" is just a straight-up bald-faced lie, and it'd be great if you could stop repeating it as though it were an obvious truth. Mirror March/Zacama, not nerfed. Djinn/Rupture spire, for another notable standard-legal offender, has not been nerfed. Omni has never been nerfed despite generating at least this much discussion if not more. Path of Discovery/Zendikar's Roil, still doing just fine.  I would wager there are a lot more infinite combos that haven't been nerfed than there are infinite combos that have been.

    Cards get nerfed for warping the meta.That's the standard that gets cards nerfed, that's always been the standard that gets cards nerfed. If everyone uses something, all the time, it'll get nerfed. That's why cycling got nerfed, heck you can go all the way back to Runaway Carriage, and that's why it got nerfed despite not being even remotely "infinite".

    So, tell us: is Naru Meha loops the only deck you're running into these days? Is it everywhere, all the time? Because it sure isn't for me. It's just one type of combo, of the many, many types out there. They're all potentially dangerous if Greg somehow lucks into pulling the combo off and they're basically harmless if he doesn't, or if you happen to be running something (say, Gideon's Triumph) that shuts it down.
  • Julie71
    Julie71 MTGPQ Mod Posts: 707 Critical Contributor
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    No
    Personally I think it doesn't.  Greg rarely gives it haste. He definitely doesn't know how to flash it in.  I guarantee 90%of players facing a blue PW have either kill spells in hand or control cards such as perilous voyage.  If not they should
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Yes
    Stormcrow said:
    Mburn7 said:

    A card that enables a player to gain infinite power/damage/draw/mana in one turn should be nerfed.
    So why don't we have a 5-page thread about Mirror March yet?
    Mburn7 said:

      That is the criteria that has been used since the beginning of the game (I posted some notable examples a few posts up).

    I see nothing special about the Naru loop that makes it immune from this criteria.  Therefore she should be nerfed.

    I never said that all cards should suck.  I never said that any card that can every unexpectedly kill you should be nerfed.  I never even said that I want Naru to be nerfed.  All I'm saying is that Naru Meha should be nerfed based on how this game treats infinite combos.

    Look, if you personally don't like infinite loops, fine. But to say "this game has always nerfed every card that can potentially go infinite" is just a straight-up bald-faced lie, and it'd be great if you could stop repeating it as though it were an obvious truth. Mirror March/Zacama, not nerfed. Djinn/Rupture spire, for another notable standard-legal offender, has not been nerfed. Omni has never been nerfed despite generating at least this much discussion if not more. Path of Discovery/Zendikar's Roil, still doing just fine.  I would wager there are a lot more infinite combos that haven't been nerfed than there are infinite combos that have been.

    Cards get nerfed for warping the meta.That's the standard that gets cards nerfed, that's always been the standard that gets cards nerfed. If everyone uses something, all the time, it'll get nerfed. That's why cycling got nerfed, heck you can go all the way back to Runaway Carriage, and that's why it got nerfed despite not being even remotely "infinite".

    So, tell us: is Naru Meha loops the only deck you're running into these days? Is it everywhere, all the time? Because it sure isn't for me. It's just one type of combo, of the many, many types out there. They're all potentially dangerous if Greg somehow lucks into pulling the combo off and they're basically harmless if he doesn't, or if you happen to be running something (say, Gideon's Triumph) that shuts it down.
    I don't really agree with this.  Cards like Harness the Storm and Season's Past showed up in matches as much or less than Naru does, since they also were mythics that weren't available for purchase.  If anything its much easier to get a Naru combo ready now than it was to Harness the Playground then due to crafting and how much more currency we get compared to then.

    As for the other combos you've mentioned, I definitely agree that Path/Roil is problematic (you'll notice I was one of the people saying something should be done about it).  March/Zacama I don't get, since Zacama will gem change destroy your March and then you lose all the reinforcements and haste (or maybe my luck just really sucks?).

    Cards like Omni and Rashmi/Waterviel and HUF/Deploy I don't have as much of a problem with since they require you to build your entire deck around them (Rashmi/Waterveil needs a almost all gem converters, Omni needs to be your only support, Deploy needs to be your only spell...ect).  I dunno, maybe its arbitrary and nobody cares anyway because of how **** the game overall is nowadays.  But that's my opinion.
  • Aeroplane
    Aeroplane Posts: 314 Mover and Shaker
    edited August 2019
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    Yes
    Naru is just a stupid one card combo and now with the new loop system you have to just sit there, waste time and watch it get to X+ … Its the most annoying card in standard that requires no comboing as long as you have one of the numerous cards in your hand that duplicates her. The last game I faced her she was up to 800+ before I quit. No skill or deckbuilding required. Lamest card in the history of MPQ. It would be better if she was a 5/5 wizard that gets + 200/200  right off the bat if it duplicates from the spell in your hand so we don't sit there waiting for it to resolve.

    I don't like nerfing cards , but one that delays game play from comboing one card is irritating.
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