FindingHeart8 said: MarvinFine said: FindingHeart8 said:If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. This is not true. Yes. Yes it is true. Affinity. Tinker, Chief Engineer, Golbin Welder. Arcum Dagson. Grim Monolith. Master Transmuter, Metal Worker. I can go on...Honestly you just cannot equate paper mtg and mtgpq in the way you are doing here. To attempt to do so shows a poor understanding of both games, and of game design in general. First off, Octagon has openly declared they are trying to design cards to model paper mtg. Secondly, it's been discussed by many players throughout threads in these forums. Lastly, I hope in your future responses, you can disagree with me without resorting to an ad hominem; regardless of your opinion, I do have a thorough understanding of both games.The Tolarian Academy effect on paper StV is hidden on the flip side of the card, and will not be active until the late game. At that point, in a paper game, the effect is powerful, but not what you'd describe as broken. Tolarian Academy is broken when you can drop it on turn 1 or 2 and play a bunch of artifacts that cost roughly 0 mana.It is CONSIDERABLY harder to flip StV in paper than it is in mtgpq. Not just because (as you fail to mention) paper StV only produces one treasure a turn instead of two, but also (as you fail to mention) for the fundamental reason that creatures can block in paper. Your opponent has far, far more options to stop your creatures dealing combat damage to him. ln paper magic, I can generally flip StV by turn 3 or 4. That isn't late game by any player's standpoint.. MarvinFine said:Furthermore: It is nothing short of ludicrous to suggest that Oktagon's hands were tied by the WOTCs design of the card, and were forced to make an overpowered, broken card because StV in paper looks a little like Tolarian Academy. Of course Oktagon have the ability to make cards which are balanced within their own game. Exactly what is it about the paper version of StV which means that an mtgpq version MUST convert 2 gems to blue for each nonland support you have in play? I never said their hands were tied in card design. As Octagon has stated, they have aimed to make cards in mtgpq more similar to mtg.I pull about 30 mana from StV per turn in paper mtg, that generally exceeds what I get in mtgpq.
MarvinFine said: FindingHeart8 said:If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. This is not true.
FindingHeart8 said:If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq.
Honestly you just cannot equate paper mtg and mtgpq in the way you are doing here. To attempt to do so shows a poor understanding of both games, and of game design in general.
The Tolarian Academy effect on paper StV is hidden on the flip side of the card, and will not be active until the late game. At that point, in a paper game, the effect is powerful, but not what you'd describe as broken. Tolarian Academy is broken when you can drop it on turn 1 or 2 and play a bunch of artifacts that cost roughly 0 mana.It is CONSIDERABLY harder to flip StV in paper than it is in mtgpq. Not just because (as you fail to mention) paper StV only produces one treasure a turn instead of two, but also (as you fail to mention) for the fundamental reason that creatures can block in paper. Your opponent has far, far more options to stop your creatures dealing combat damage to him.
MarvinFine said:Furthermore: It is nothing short of ludicrous to suggest that Oktagon's hands were tied by the WOTCs design of the card, and were forced to make an overpowered, broken card because StV in paper looks a little like Tolarian Academy. Of course Oktagon have the ability to make cards which are balanced within their own game. Exactly what is it about the paper version of StV which means that an mtgpq version MUST convert 2 gems to blue for each nonland support you have in play?
DumasAG said: I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and say that one player is speaking from a constructed/standard/limited perspective, and the other is coming from a commander perspective, which is why paper experiences with StV are differing significantly.My own thoughts on the paper to digital translation are that paper StV is generally trash, and the MTGPQ version is obviously treasure. Just worried there's going to be an argument here about the paper version of the card when you're essentially playing with different versions of the card because the format you play in differs significantly.
I pull about 30 mana from StV per turn in paper mtg.Wait a minute ... How many turns does it take you to setup enough artifacts to get to this point ... It's obviously not on turn 5 but that makes me curious.
Gideon said: STV is fun and it makes the matches go quicker. Two things that the game needs. It’s a good card keep it as is.
boopers said: Folks, the game needs interesting and powerful cards to be fun. We can't have everything be bland and mediocre, who wants to play a game like that?
MarvinFine said: FindingHeart8 said: MarvinFine said: FindingHeart8 said:If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. This is not true. Yes. Yes it is true. Affinity. Tinker, Chief Engineer, Golbin Welder. Arcum Dagson. Grim Monolith. Master Transmuter, Metal Worker. I can go on... This list is some pretty conclusive evidence that you don't understand what goes into balancing MTGPQ for a Standard environment. Tinker, Grim Monolith, Metal Worker, and Goblin Welder are all playable cards in Vintage.. WOTC would never allow anything like these to be printed in a Standard legal set again. Tinker is *restricted* in Vintage which puts it in the same category as Black Lotus and the Moxen. Affinity is lower down the power scale than these cards but it's had to have it's key mana accelerators banned in Modern to stop it running rampant.This is the power level of card you are invoking to justify StV going unchanged in Standard MTGPQ?On the other hand.... Master Transmuter, Arcum Dagson, Chief Engineer... These cards are not tournament playable. Have a google around and see if you can find anyone performing well in a Grand Prix or Pro Tour with them. People play Master Transmuter and Arcum Dagson in EDH, but if they were genuinely powerful cards, then they'd be available for sale for as much as Tier 1 cards in their respective sets, like Dark Depths or Noble Hierarch, and they aren't. Chief Engineer retails for junk rare prices.Look, I get it, I really do. StV is 'fun' for a lot of players. Low/mid tier players like the fact that it can cast a ton of cards in their turn repeatedly; way more than any other card. They don't care about balance, they just want to play cards. And some high level players... well, they don't care about balance either, they just want to win games.By all means, argue that broken cards like StV should exist in the game because the majority of players want to play with them. It puts my hackles up, but I know I'm in a minority about that.But StV in MTGPQ IS a broken, unbalanced, format warping card.
FindingHeart8 said: MarvinFine said: FindingHeart8 said:If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. This is not true. Yes. Yes it is true. Affinity. Tinker, Chief Engineer, Golbin Welder. Arcum Dagson. Grim Monolith. Master Transmuter, Metal Worker. I can go on...
boopers said: The only reason we see StV all the time is because there almost nothing else for efficient mana ramp unless you jam a deck full of smaller converters (which I do often). If we had more green gem converters, or good mana gain supports, or whatever, StV wouldn't be "warping the meta" like so many people keep saying. The Meta has changed to be slower paced, and StV is still here as a legacy to a time when there were a lot of big mana ramp options. The issue is that Octagon has clearly decided that they aren't going to produce as many big mana ramp cards. And frankly, following this pattern, when StV rotates out, we won't get a "replacement". You'll get your wish by attrition at that time.And... let's just think forward a bit. Assuming StV get's nerfed, what will happen?1) matches will take longer2) being mana screwed will become more real in this game3) players will start losing more (and then complain about it here)4) something ELSE will pop up as the goto combo for ramp and we'll see that all the time5) We'll start the nerf discussion all over again for whatever pops upI'm with @gogol666 I WANT to see Greg with good competitive decks. I WANT to be challenged. It seems to me the primary argument for nerfing StV is that it makes matches harder to win. I'm sorry you lost some matches because greg out ramped you... but the answer is to get better at deck-building, and be prepared to see StV whenever you see blue. Adjust to the game, don't ask the game to adjust to you.Also, IT IS OK TO LOSE NOW AND THEN. Cycling ruined this game, it made winning an expectation rather than an accomplishment. It seems to me the community is still of the mindset that everyone should win every match rather than it being POSSIBLE to win most matches, and expecting to lose some.But don't ask for the devs to make the game easier... go find a different game if you can't hack it. I hear candy crush is nice.And I'm done with this topic. y'all can go outside and duke it out. I hope octagon is smart and ignores this insanity.
DumasAG said: boopers said: The only reason we see StV all the time is because there almost nothing else for efficient mana ramp unless you jam a deck full of smaller converters (which I do often). If we had more green gem converters, or good mana gain supports, or whatever, StV wouldn't be "warping the meta" like so many people keep saying. The Meta has changed to be slower paced, and StV is still here as a legacy to a time when there were a lot of big mana ramp options. The issue is that Octagon has clearly decided that they aren't going to produce as many big mana ramp cards. And frankly, following this pattern, when StV rotates out, we won't get a "replacement". You'll get your wish by attrition at that time.And... let's just think forward a bit. Assuming StV get's nerfed, what will happen?1) matches will take longer2) being mana screwed will become more real in this game3) players will start losing more (and then complain about it here)4) something ELSE will pop up as the goto combo for ramp and we'll see that all the time5) We'll start the nerf discussion all over again for whatever pops upI'm with @gogol666 I WANT to see Greg with good competitive decks. I WANT to be challenged. It seems to me the primary argument for nerfing StV is that it makes matches harder to win. I'm sorry you lost some matches because greg out ramped you... but the answer is to get better at deck-building, and be prepared to see StV whenever you see blue. Adjust to the game, don't ask the game to adjust to you.Also, IT IS OK TO LOSE NOW AND THEN. Cycling ruined this game, it made winning an expectation rather than an accomplishment. It seems to me the community is still of the mindset that everyone should win every match rather than it being POSSIBLE to win most matches, and expecting to lose some.But don't ask for the devs to make the game easier... go find a different game if you can't hack it. I hear candy crush is nice.And I'm done with this topic. y'all can go outside and duke it out. I hope octagon is smart and ignores this insanity. *slow clap*
boopers said: IT IS OK TO LOSE NOW AND THEN.
MarvinFine said: boopers said: IT IS OK TO LOSE NOW AND THEN. Once again: I don't lose, because I own StV, and that's what the problem is.
MarvinFine said: SinisterOne said: I think the problem with StV isn't necessarily the card but the fact that a lot of people auto include it even when it is a subpar choice....In the right deck StV is a powerful card but if someone is not playing it right it is detrimental to their game and is sad. Other people building decks which aren't as good as yours or mine is hardly a problem.
SinisterOne said: I think the problem with StV isn't necessarily the card but the fact that a lot of people auto include it even when it is a subpar choice....In the right deck StV is a powerful card but if someone is not playing it right it is detrimental to their game and is sad.