I'm Very Tired of Storm the Vault

kayd_mon

I use it, sure. But so does everyone else. Makes for some stale game play. Especially in Bolas decks that still go infinitely, despite omniscience being gone. Ugh. 

andrewvanmarle

use  support destruction and win.....

FindingHeart8

It would be nice if it didn't count as a land support, so you could hit it with River's Rebuke

MTG_Mage

They are very cautious before nerfing a card, only doing so when it breaks the game, however there were a few cards that have been toned down.
I gotta say that this card is super overpowered and unbalanced to the point of warping the format. It doesnt even fit in with the theme of its color. So I agree, please nerf storm the vault.
It needs a big nerf too, cost is too low, shield count is way too high, and value of X should be 1 not 2. It currently is cost 11, shields 4 and 5 flipped, convert X = times 2.  It should be toned down to cost 12, shields 3/3, X=1

FindingHeart8

I don't think it needs that serious of a nerf.  It's good but not unstoppable.  You're guaranteed at least 1 turn to be able to react.

And for being basically a lesser Tolarian Academy, the card does what in paper mtg it was intended to do (ramp up some serious mana and be a delayed broken card).  Don't blame Octagon for this card, blame WotC for bringing the style of a banned card back

Laeuftbeidir

Well, the issue isn't that it leads to an auto loss or can't be dealt with.. The issue is that it's an auto include. Do you have any blue deck without it? No? Me neither.

bk1234

Laeuftbeidir said:

Well, the issue isn't that it leads to an auto loss or can't be dealt with.. The issue is that it's an auto include. Do you have any blue deck without it? No? Me neither.

I have lots of blue decks without it. In most cases I prefer Azcanta. Much more control and protection for my other supports. 

khurram

StV is so good that it's spoiling us. It feels weird when the gem board does not explode to fill up the cards in your hand, at the start of your turn.

You feel incomplete when you make decks without it. There is just a hole in your chest where StV was supposed to be. 

MTG_Mage

hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.
This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it.

FindingHeart8

Laeuftbeidir said:

Well, the issue isn't that it leads to an auto loss or can't be dealt with.. The issue is that it's an auto include. Do you have any blue deck without it? No? Me neither.

I only run it in a few of my blue decks.  StVs mana gains are great but at a high risk of wiping out every other support you have on the field.  It's great for creature beatdown, not so great for spell heavy decks or decks where you need your supports to stay on the field.

andrewvanmarle

Laeuftbeidir said:

Well, the issue isn't that it leads to an auto loss or can't be dealt with.. The issue is that it's an auto include. Do you have any blue deck without it? No? Me neither.

Being an auto include should never ever be the reason to nerf a card, ever.

That would be like nerfing  murder or infernal reckoning because I'll'include either one in ANY black deck i play.

I agree that it would be better if it werent a land, but other than that, if it isnt an auto-win, don't touch.

FindingHeart8

MTG_Mage said:

hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.
This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it.

If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq.  You also don't run the risk in paper mtg of StV accidentally destroying your other artifacts, which is a problem you can frequently encounter in mtgpq.

The developers took a different route on StV that still managed to meet the same outcome that it should in paper mtg.

Before the update where treasures/clues would be targeted with support destruction before an actual support-card itself I'd wholeheartedly agree with you.  But since that update it's easier to destroy StV, the card has already been "adjusted."

Now when I lose to StV, I don't blame the card, I blame the fact that I didn't put support destruction in my deck.

DumasAG

Gotta start committing more slots to support destruction. I now run at least two in every deck that can (looking at you, mono black...). I try to run one actual support destruction and one ancillary (demolish AND Rebuke/Zacama/Isolate, for instance). They want supports to be good, that's why they lowered the cost on all the lands. The meta needs to react and be ready to kill supports. Even if you don't hit the vault, hitting other supports lowers the impact of the vault.

IF they wanted to nerf it, I would say a reasonable nerf would be to have the Vault side convert gems based on either the number of non-land supports (like the front side) or could even go a step further and make it closer to its paper counterpart by having it count only artifact supports. This would force a bit more decision-making when deck building.

kayd_mon

It's not unbeatable. And yes, I run support removal. It's just annoying. Every deck has it. All my blues for sure. Reds? Might as well. I'm just saying that seeing the same card in every match gets old really fast. Maybe if the card had been mythic, it would have been less prevalent. 

Froggy

I use StV in some of my decks - definitely not all.

To deal with it, I use Alpine Moon. Now THAT card is powerful if ever there was a powerful card! It’s your Nyx killer, Vault pillager, Cast Out recovery, etc. If I have this card in play, I could care less about support decks. They don’t last.

Grixis197

If someone had StV flipped and then they River Rebuked you it’s hard to come back from it only nerf I can see for it is having less than 5 shield when flipped 3 would be better or lose the 2x just 1x supports

Bil

   If it didn't count token supports, it would already be enough of a nerf i think. 

Brakkis

Again with this?

I'll admit that it could use some tweaking. Change the flip side to only convert based on non-land supports just like the front side requires in order to flip. Also reduce the flip sides shields to 3 like the other flip lands.

I certainly don't include StV in every blue deck. Azor's Gateway works better in a U/W deck while Azcanta would fit better in a U/G deck if I had it. I only find myself using it on Bolas or Saheeli these days.

wereotter

FindingHeart8 said:

MTG_Mage said:

hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.
This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it.

If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq.  You also don't run the risk in paper mtg of StV accidentally destroying your other artifacts, which is a problem you can frequently encounter in mtgpq.

The developers took a different route on StV that still managed to meet the same outcome that it should in paper mtg.

Before the update where treasures/clues would be targeted with support destruction before an actual support-card itself I'd wholeheartedly agree with you.  But since that update it's easier to destroy StV, the card has already been "adjusted."

Now when I lose to StV, I don't blame the card, I blame the fact that I didn't put support destruction in my deck.

Also.... I could be wrong here, but I don't think they introduced the artifact subtype to the cards until Dominaria so that it could line up with cards that care about being historic. Hence Storm the Vault couldn't look for artifacts. This, however, could easily be adjusted where it has to look for how many artifacts, specifically, you control in order to flip, and it only converts gems to blue based on how many artifacts.

OR another possible adjustment could be rather than converting gems to blue, it raises your blue mana bonus by +x, equal to the number of artifacts you control.

MTG_Mage

They have retroactively added the sub-types enchantment/artifact/aura/land to all support cards applicable. You can see this by typing in 'artifact' for example, in the search filter of the cards tab.
The search filter is a really useful tool and can find creature types too, in fact it can filter any keyword on a card.

FindingHeart8

wereotter said:

FindingHeart8 said:

MTG_Mage said:

hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.
This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it.

If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq.  You also don't run the risk in paper mtg of StV accidentally destroying your other artifacts, which is a problem you can frequently encounter in mtgpq.

The developers took a different route on StV that still managed to meet the same outcome that it should in paper mtg.

Before the update where treasures/clues would be targeted with support destruction before an actual support-card itself I'd wholeheartedly agree with you.  But since that update it's easier to destroy StV, the card has already been "adjusted."

Now when I lose to StV, I don't blame the card, I blame the fact that I didn't put support destruction in my deck.

Also.... I could be wrong here, but I don't think they introduced the artifact subtype to the cards until Dominaria so that it could line up with cards that care about being historic. Hence Storm the Vault couldn't look for artifacts. This, however, could easily be adjusted where it has to look for how many artifacts, specifically, you control in order to flip, and it only converts gems to blue based on how many artifacts.

OR another possible adjustment could be rather than converting gems to blue, it raises your blue mana bonus by +x, equal to the number of artifacts you control.

You are correct in the artifact subtype being after Rivals.

Those are some interesting ideas, however all would significantly reduce the power of StV.  Most artifact supports are too easy to destroy and too costly to replace, and blue mana bonus is useless if you can't make a blue match.

Octagon has openly shown they're trying to use paper mtg as a model for mtgpq cards.  As properly utilized in paper mtg, StV land ability is supposed to be overpowered and broken as tinykitty.  Nerfing it would actually be straying away from the design of the actual card.  If players have issue with it, blame WotC for bringing back Tolarian Academy mechanics, not mtgpq.

The card is powerful, I agree.  But I'll take it in it's current form over a gutted version like what they did with Solemnity.