Brakkis said: Again with this?I'll admit that it could use some tweaking. Change the flip side to only convert based on non-land supports just like the front side requires in order to flip. Also reduce the flip sides shields to 3 like the other flip lands.I certainly don't include StV in every blue deck. Azor's Gateway works better in a U/W deck while Azcanta would fit better in a U/G deck if I had it. I only find myself using it on Bolas or Saheeli these days.
kayd_mon said: Brakkis said: Again with this?I'll admit that it could use some tweaking. Change the flip side to only convert based on non-land supports just like the front side requires in order to flip. Also reduce the flip sides shields to 3 like the other flip lands.I certainly don't include StV in every blue deck. Azor's Gateway works better in a U/W deck while Azcanta would fit better in a U/G deck if I had it. I only find myself using it on Bolas or Saheeli these days. In my defense, this is my first time posting here. So, at least it's my first time.
FindingHeart8 said: wereotter said: FindingHeart8 said: MTG_Mage said: hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it. If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. You also don't run the risk in paper mtg of StV accidentally destroying your other artifacts, which is a problem you can frequently encounter in mtgpq.The developers took a different route on StV that still managed to meet the same outcome that it should in paper mtg.Before the update where treasures/clues would be targeted with support destruction before an actual support-card itself I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. But since that update it's easier to destroy StV, the card has already been "adjusted."Now when I lose to StV, I don't blame the card, I blame the fact that I didn't put support destruction in my deck. Also.... I could be wrong here, but I don't think they introduced the artifact subtype to the cards until Dominaria so that it could line up with cards that care about being historic. Hence Storm the Vault couldn't look for artifacts. This, however, could easily be adjusted where it has to look for how many artifacts, specifically, you control in order to flip, and it only converts gems to blue based on how many artifacts.OR another possible adjustment could be rather than converting gems to blue, it raises your blue mana bonus by +x, equal to the number of artifacts you control. You are correct in the artifact subtype being after Rivals.Those are some interesting ideas, however all would significantly reduce the power of StV. Most artifact supports are too easy to destroy and too costly to replace, and blue mana bonus is useless if you can't make a blue match.Octagon has openly shown they're trying to use paper mtg as a model for mtgpq cards. As properly utilized in paper mtg, StV land ability is supposed to be overpowered and broken as tinykitty. Nerfing it would actually be straying away from the design of the actual card. If players have issue with it, blame WotC for bringing back Tolarian Academy mechanics, not mtgpq.The card is powerful, I agree. But I'll take it in it's current form over a gutted version like what they did with Solemnity.
wereotter said: FindingHeart8 said: MTG_Mage said: hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it. If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. You also don't run the risk in paper mtg of StV accidentally destroying your other artifacts, which is a problem you can frequently encounter in mtgpq.The developers took a different route on StV that still managed to meet the same outcome that it should in paper mtg.Before the update where treasures/clues would be targeted with support destruction before an actual support-card itself I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. But since that update it's easier to destroy StV, the card has already been "adjusted."Now when I lose to StV, I don't blame the card, I blame the fact that I didn't put support destruction in my deck. Also.... I could be wrong here, but I don't think they introduced the artifact subtype to the cards until Dominaria so that it could line up with cards that care about being historic. Hence Storm the Vault couldn't look for artifacts. This, however, could easily be adjusted where it has to look for how many artifacts, specifically, you control in order to flip, and it only converts gems to blue based on how many artifacts.OR another possible adjustment could be rather than converting gems to blue, it raises your blue mana bonus by +x, equal to the number of artifacts you control.
FindingHeart8 said: MTG_Mage said: hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it. If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. You also don't run the risk in paper mtg of StV accidentally destroying your other artifacts, which is a problem you can frequently encounter in mtgpq.The developers took a different route on StV that still managed to meet the same outcome that it should in paper mtg.Before the update where treasures/clues would be targeted with support destruction before an actual support-card itself I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. But since that update it's easier to destroy StV, the card has already been "adjusted."Now when I lose to StV, I don't blame the card, I blame the fact that I didn't put support destruction in my deck.
MTG_Mage said: hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it.
MarvinFine said: Oddly enough, I very rarely face it. I almost always run it, tho. It wins a lot of games. I find it odd that so much of this thread revolves around dealing with your opponent playing with it, rather than how I, and players like me, use it to perform far, far, better in Events than players without it. If I was a cynical man I would say that this focus on how to deal with it is a deliberate attempt to shift the argument away from how ridiculous and unbalancing a card it is for a player to own.If it's so important to have cards like this in the environment in order to create some games of higher difficulty when you play against it, then, why not just make this card something that cannot be owned by players, and is instead a node effect in some of the higher difficulty levels in Events?
wereotter said: FindingHeart8 said: wereotter said: FindingHeart8 said: MTG_Mage said: hmm, the paper card only gets mana from artifacts, but the mtgpq card converts for any support. Why did they not specify the support sub-type artifact? They have specified sub-types in all cards since they came out, but didnt with this one. It itself has sub-types enchantment/land so it shouldnt even get its own bonus.This card really does need adjusting and everyone knows it. If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. You also don't run the risk in paper mtg of StV accidentally destroying your other artifacts, which is a problem you can frequently encounter in mtgpq.The developers took a different route on StV that still managed to meet the same outcome that it should in paper mtg.Before the update where treasures/clues would be targeted with support destruction before an actual support-card itself I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. But since that update it's easier to destroy StV, the card has already been "adjusted."Now when I lose to StV, I don't blame the card, I blame the fact that I didn't put support destruction in my deck. Also.... I could be wrong here, but I don't think they introduced the artifact subtype to the cards until Dominaria so that it could line up with cards that care about being historic. Hence Storm the Vault couldn't look for artifacts. This, however, could easily be adjusted where it has to look for how many artifacts, specifically, you control in order to flip, and it only converts gems to blue based on how many artifacts.OR another possible adjustment could be rather than converting gems to blue, it raises your blue mana bonus by +x, equal to the number of artifacts you control. You are correct in the artifact subtype being after Rivals.Those are some interesting ideas, however all would significantly reduce the power of StV. Most artifact supports are too easy to destroy and too costly to replace, and blue mana bonus is useless if you can't make a blue match.Octagon has openly shown they're trying to use paper mtg as a model for mtgpq cards. As properly utilized in paper mtg, StV land ability is supposed to be overpowered and broken as tinykitty. Nerfing it would actually be straying away from the design of the actual card. If players have issue with it, blame WotC for bringing back Tolarian Academy mechanics, not mtgpq.The card is powerful, I agree. But I'll take it in it's current form over a gutted version like what they did with Solemnity. The card doesn't have to specifically consider artifact supports, though, now that artifacts exist as a card type. It could still look at your artifact creatures for references of what counts. And while being reliant on a blue match to get that massive boost of mana is definitely a hard part, I doubt anyone would mind if making that match, even in a mono-red planeswalker, as it still has the ability to be a massive burst of mana, and wouldn't destroy your token supports in the process.Only thing I would say would need to be addressed is adding the artifact subtype to treasures, clues, and servos which currently don't have that as part of their coding.
MarvinFine said: FindingHeart8 said:If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq. This is not true.
FindingHeart8 said:If you play paper mtg, you know that artifacts are insanely easier to cast there than in mtgpq.
Honestly you just cannot equate paper mtg and mtgpq in the way you are doing here. To attempt to do so shows a poor understanding of both games, and of game design in general.
The Tolarian Academy effect on paper StV is hidden on the flip side of the card, and will not be active until the late game. At that point, in a paper game, the effect is powerful, but not what you'd describe as broken. Tolarian Academy is broken when you can drop it on turn 1 or 2 and play a bunch of artifacts that cost roughly 0 mana.It is CONSIDERABLY harder to flip StV in paper than it is in mtgpq. Not just because (as you fail to mention) paper StV only produces one treasure a turn instead of two, but also (as you fail to mention) for the fundamental reason that creatures can block in paper. Your opponent has far, far more options to stop your creatures dealing combat damage to him.
MarvinFine said:Furthermore: It is nothing short of ludicrous to suggest that Oktagon's hands were tied by the WOTCs design of the card, and were forced to make an overpowered, broken card because StV in paper looks a little like Tolarian Academy. Of course Oktagon have the ability to make cards which are balanced within their own game. Exactly what is it about the paper version of StV which means that an mtgpq version MUST convert 2 gems to blue for each nonland support you have in play?