I'm Very Tired of Storm the Vault

DumasAG

Do I include StV in most of my blue decks? Yes. This is standard though, and there is a limited pool of cards from which to build optimal decks. In that line, here's a quick list of some other (very nearly) auto-includes for their colors in standard (for me):

Darigaaz Reincarnated
Vivian's Invocation
Muldrotha
Dragon's Hoard
Gilded Lotus
Plague Wind
Murder
Zacama
River's Rebuke
Jaya's Immolating Inferno
Settle the Wreckage (if it ever gets fixed)
Isolate
Demolish

We could hammer out all of the cards which spike in power, but I'd argue that would make for a sort of boring format if everything is roughly the same level. For those arguing blue shouldn't have the best mana generation, I don't understand how many of you also argue that Oktagon is not beholden to WotC design in translating cards. Do they contractually have to stay to the same color pie, but can alter cards as they wish? If they can change a card, they can change anything. This is a different game. If they feel it's better for this game that blue have good mana generation, then they are completely within their rights to head that direction.

Can StV be tweaked? Yes, I personally think it should probably only count artifacts on the board. But I also don't personally feel like playing with or against it greatly alters the feeling of this game from previous sets. I _personally_ don't feel like this card is an issue. And I'd rather they didn't go in and change every card that has a small problem with it, because that snowballs into an incredibly restrictive environment. I prefer they wait and make sweeping changes, like when they altered all of the lands at once to make them more manageable to cast. This is fixing a facet of the game, not a single problem in the meta. If there's a problem in the meta, I'd rather they buffed cards that answer it (support destruction all hit non-token supports first, for instance), because problems in the meta usually mean a facet of the game is lacking. 

ZW2007-

SinisterOne said:

I think the problem with StV isn't necessarily the card but the fact that a lot of people auto include it even when it is a subpar choice.

Having it in a Bolas1 or 2 deck, a Saheeli deck, a Jaya deck or basically any blue walker and it can be insane ramp, but running it in a Angrath deck is suboptimal verses Dragon's Hoard or the Memorials best suited for his colors. I played a TG match earlier and my Angrath opponent ran StV that helped me dominate him. 

Their StV was either a) leaving me solid blue matches before my supports triggered at the start of my turn, b) setting up big cascades for me once my converters filled in a few gaps, or c) blowing up my supports that were benefiting me more than him.

His mana gains from the blue matches were okay but running Dragon's Hoard or the Memorials would of been way better.

I've even seen a Koth running StV and he too was a cakewalk. 

In the right deck StV is a powerful card but if someone is not playing it right it is detrimental to their game and is sad.

Assuming the AI plays StV in an Angrath or Koth deck in the same manner as a skilled player plays those same decks is a mistake. Just because Dragon's Hoard or the memorials are best suited for Angrath's colors does not make them the best card choice for him.

Hoard is 13 mana with 5 shields that will convert 3 gems to black and red. I don't know if you will ever get all 3 converted to one single color but the fact that it makes two different colors decreases its effectiveness to a degree in my opinion. Still, it is an amazing card. 

Memorials are 8 mana with 2 shields that will convert 2 gems to whichever color you choose. You could also play both his on-color memorials and get 4 gems converted to his colors at the cost of two of your deck's support slots.

StV is 11 mana with 4 shields that does nothing until it flips. I feel that we can agree that flipping StV isn't really an issue. The flip side has 5 shields and converts X times 2 gems to blue. At its absolute worst it will convert 2 gems to blue.

For Angrath, the difference between an on-color match and a blue match is only 2 mana. Since StV easily has the capability of converting 3 times the number of gems as Hoard or 5 times as the memorials, you already surpass the mana gains from those supports by playing StV. You could play Hoard and both memorials and almost reach StV's level of conversion but that requires 3 of your support/deck slots which could be used for other utility cards like The Eldest Reborn, Profane Procession, Haphazard Bombardment, etc.

Even though StV is the wrong color, it definitely isn't the wrong card for Angrath. Now Koth, with that I agree. He doesn't have enough support slots to justify running StV when you consider the massive difference in gains from red to blue. Nahiri and AJ1 are the same as Angrath for me though.

Look at it this way: If Hour of Promise was colorless but still converted gems to green, would you put it in every single deck? The answer is yes. StV is like that but only costs you one card and goes off each turn. It is that good.

As to the issue of StV being too good. It shouldn't convert gems and it shouldn't give a 2X multiplier. Anyone arguing that StV conforms to a good paper translation is ignoring the fact that we have supports that give static amounts of mana. StV should be "At the beginning of your turn, gain X mana where X is the number of supports you control." Guess what? We literally have that exact card in blue already. It's called As Foretold and it's a mythic! 

With all that said, I don't think StV should be changed. I do hope that the devs don't continue to make cards like StV that warp the format and color pie.

FindingHeart8

ZW2007- said:

As to the issue of StV being too good. It shouldn't convert gems and it shouldn't give a 2X multiplier. Anyone arguing that StV conforms to a good paper translation is ignoring the fact that we have supports that give static amounts of mana. StV should be "At the beginning of your turn, gain X mana where X is the number of supports you control." Guess what? We literally have that exact card in blue already. It's called As Foretold and it's a mythic! 

With all that said, I don't think StV should be changed. I do hope that the devs don't continue to make cards like StV that warp the format and color pie.

I don't see how other supports that give static amounts of mana has any relevance to StV's translation to paper.  That's like arguing that we shouldn't have Growing Rites of Itlimoc because we have cards like Memorial to Unity/Unclaimed Territory/etc.

Unless your entire point was that StV should be a mythic, which in that case I would wholeheartedly agree with you.  I don't know why, power level in consideration, Growing Rites is a mythic yet StV isn't, except for the fact that it's the rarity on paper, which would further my belief that Octagon was trying to replicate paper mtg's StV.

I enjoy that, for once, green doesn't have the stage in mana ramp.  The game acceleration is nice too, it takes too long to grind in this game.  Honestly, mtgpq probably shouldn't have chosen to include 2 cards that are the slower versions of some of the most powerful lands ever made in mtg.  But since they decided to, I'm glad they followed through with it and actually tried to replicate the effects.

ZW2007-

FindingHeart8 said:

ZW2007- said:

As to the issue of StV being too good. It shouldn't convert gems and it shouldn't give a 2X multiplier. Anyone arguing that StV conforms to a good paper translation is ignoring the fact that we have supports that give static amounts of mana. StV should be "At the beginning of your turn, gain X mana where X is the number of supports you control." Guess what? We literally have that exact card in blue already. It's called As Foretold and it's a mythic! 

With all that said, I don't think StV should be changed. I do hope that the devs don't continue to make cards like StV that warp the format and color pie.

I don't see how other supports that give static amounts of mana has any relevance to StV's translation to paper.  

So earlier you argued that it is a good translation of the paper version and that is why it is okay for it to be so powerful yet we have an existing card that is a literal translation of the paper version and you don't see the relevance of my comment?

FindingHeart8

ZW2007- said:

FindingHeart8 said:

ZW2007- said:

As to the issue of StV being too good. It shouldn't convert gems and it shouldn't give a 2X multiplier. Anyone arguing that StV conforms to a good paper translation is ignoring the fact that we have supports that give static amounts of mana. StV should be "At the beginning of your turn, gain X mana where X is the number of supports you control." Guess what? We literally have that exact card in blue already. It's called As Foretold and it's a mythic! 

With all that said, I don't think StV should be changed. I do hope that the devs don't continue to make cards like StV that warp the format and color pie.

I don't see how other supports that give static amounts of mana has any relevance to StV's translation to paper.  

So earlier you argued that it is a good translation of the paper version and that is why it is okay for it to be so powerful yet we have an existing card that is a literal translation of the paper version and you don't see the relevance of my comment?

Wait what?  No that is not correct...you play paper mtg, right?

Neither is a literal translation of the paper version, in wording or function.

In paper, As Foretold gains 1 counter per turn, and once per turn (yours or your opponents) you can cast a spell for free if the counters on it match or exceed the converted mana cost of the spell.  That is incredibly different than converting mana gems based on the number of supports you have in play.

As Foretold does not interact in paper magic, while it's dependent upon interaction in mtgpq.  Additionally, As Foretold in paper mtg can scale faster than paper mtg, which unless you can proliferate is locked at a gradual increase at best.  A closer paper equivalent to mtgpq's As Foretold would be something like Blinkmoth Urn (I don't know if you play paper mtg or not, so I posted the card below for your convenience).

Also, I was arguing that the effect of StV accomplishes what we would see from a well-crafted paper mtg deck utilizing the paper version of that card.  StV is made to be an abuse-able card by design, that's its purpose.  We would see a similar result with Rites of Itlimoc if we weren't limited to a 3 creature-cap for the battlefield.

ZW2007-

You aren't reading what I wrote. The MTGPQ version of As Foretold does almost exactly what the paper version of Vault of Catlacan does.

As Foretold in PQ: At the beginning of your turn, you gain X mana, where X is the number of supports you control.

Vault of Catlacan in paper: : Add  for each artifact you control.

I'm not sure why converting gems to blue is relevant at all to the PQ version of StV and why it doesn't just add flat mana like it should. If they are trying to make the PQ cards similar to the paper cards, then PQ StV should be identical to PQ As Foretold.

FindingHeart8

Yeah I don't quite get why the developers chose the gem converting direction with blue either.

Ultimately As Foretold really got nerfed in comparison to the paper version, at least in the long game.  The card could really use a buff.

Technically Vault of the Catlacan should also count artifact creatures if you want to really make it an accurate translation of paper.  Either way it'd still be a nerf from the paper version.

I'll admit, I had my reservations when WotC originally made the card, but they did.  I was nervous about mtgpq bringing that card to this game, but they did.  Before treasures had their priority lowered in regards to support destruction, I'd see why people would be complaining (ironically, there weren't a ton of complaints about it when it was more broken); but now it's more vulnerable, and it's here. 

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[Deleted User]

Ugh here we go.

There are many cards that need nerfs but you must be very careful when doing so. Also you have to nerf it reasonably so that it doesn't become a paperweight or in this case a pretty little card art. 

Personally i dont think it needs a severe nerf as people are suggesting. If that is the case there are a multitude of other cards that need it. 

StV has prerequisites to flip and convert. Depending on deck design it can be easy or difficult.

1. It requires creatures to flip more efficiently. Remove creatures and your good since less treasures are made. 
2. The effect attritions and lowers as time passes since the supports it relies on to create conversions blow up. In other words, it peaks and then degrades. If you can get past this initial burst you are good. 
3. When the effects have attritioned, there is a good chance it starts leaving better matches for your opponent as opposed to you. 
4. StV is vulernable to support removal but its the fact that support removal has become far to expensive and rare compared to the past. 
5. In off color decks it is used i notoced but rarely yields good results as the mana gains are significantly lower. 
6. It only ramps in the right decks. You can stuff a bunch of high cost cards and you will only cast maybe 1 or 2 cards. Stuff in a bunch if cheap to midrange, story changes a bit. It is heavily dependent on the constituents of the deck. 

A proper user can abuse it yes. But a less knowledgeable? Person not so much. Therefore, even if this card were to be nerfed it would have to be done so with care as people are overestimating the card too much. I speculate people are only looking at it from 1 dimension or so it feels to me (no offense). Its not being considered from a more comprehensive viewpoint.

StV and omniscience are cards that rely heavily on its environment and the decks that build around them. Can they be broken with the right combination? Yes but its the right combination not the card alone. 

My personal view is it needs to be nerfed minimally not extensively. Creating 1 treasure sounds reasonable. Reducing shield a but as well. But changing the x times conversion is a bit debateable as the power level would decrease significantly and considering the card attritions over time may be too severe.

There are too many cards that need nerfing that even if you wanted to nerf this card. All other cards need to be nerfed accordingly. Olivia and the decimator dont have prerequisites and are far too strong ALONE that i feel our priorities are in the wrong place. I mean capt lannery? Who can potentially do 1/4 to 1/3 of my life totals worth of damage? Etali? Who steals away free cards? I want to say josu as well i mean 18 power for 16 mana? Djinn of wishes? Blue sun zenith? Super angel creating spell/support? Lightning runner who can completely devastate your life total ALONE. And the list goes on

But the thing i can say for certain is this game thrives on overpoweredness - take it away and its going to feel empty. Other cards games balance and nerf and hence lack that extra Oomph. I realize things need balance but at this point its become we might as well just get powerful cards to counteract overpowered cards - its almost too late. And this is something i realized over the past month on the forums. I could balance this game for you and it would be appropriate and reasonable (and i genuinely believe i would be good at it) but i guarantee you will lose some joy and i dont have the time to freelance that kind of thing. 

Nerfing this card alone isnt going to help. And honestly there are a surprising number of way to counteract these cards in the meta. Sometimes its easy, sometimes its hard. Just as others have argued that darigaaz and josu are fine. I will argue StV is fine - okay maybe a small and i mean small nerf. 

FindingHeart8

MarvinFine said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Before treasures had their priority lowered in regards to support destruction, I'd see why people would be complaining (ironically, there weren't a ton of complaints about it when it was more broken); but now it's more vulnerable, and it's here.  

For a card that's vulnerable, I can't help but notice mine never gets shot. In fact, it usually ends up with 8 or 13 shields or so, because I play multiple copies, none of which seem to get shot.

It IS here, and those of use who understand it's power are using it to perform very, very well in Standard tournaments. I haven't dropped any points in TDW yet. How about you?

first off, stop trying to make this argument personal by going back to this claim of "understanding or not understanding" cards.  Cards can be more useful or less, depending on your play-style and strategy.  There's only a handful of cards that are a staple regardless of your strategy.  My disagreement with your argument is not because I "dont understand how a card or game mechanics works," my disagreement is because I think your conclusion is incorrect.

I've shot down opponent's StV a fair share of times, and I've had my StV destroyed a couple times as well (not too often because I don't frequently seem to face opponents running support destruction).

This is a card that was intentionally made to be a broken card.  And frankly, I find it significantly easier to handle in mtgpq than against a well crafted paper non-commander mtg artifact deck.

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Froggy

As long as you two both agree and nothing happens to StV, I’m happy.

FindingHeart8

MarvinFine said:

FindingHeart8 said:

MarvinFine said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Before treasures had their priority lowered in regards to support destruction, I'd see why people would be complaining (ironically, there weren't a ton of complaints about it when it was more broken); but now it's more vulnerable, and it's here.  

For a card that's vulnerable, I can't help but notice mine never gets shot. In fact, it usually ends up with 8 or 13 shields or so, because I play multiple copies, none of which seem to get shot.

It IS here, and those of use who understand it's power are using it to perform very, very well in Standard tournaments. I haven't dropped any points in TDW yet. How about you?

first off, stop trying to make this argument personal by going back to this claim of "understanding or not understanding" cards.  Cards can be more useful or less, depending on your play-style and strategy.  There's only a handful of cards that are a staple regardless of your strategy.  My disagreement with your argument is not because I "dont understand how a card or game mechanics works," my disagreement is because I think your conclusion is incorrect.

I've shot down opponent's StV a fair share of times, and I've had my StV destroyed a couple times as well (not too often because I don't frequently seem to face opponents running support destruction).

This is a card that was intentionally made to be a broken card.  And frankly, I find it significantly easier to handle in mtgpq than against a well crafted paper non-commander mtg artifact deck.

I am willing to cede your point that you personally find it easy to deal with StV in mtgpq.

Are you willing to cede mine that one reason I'm always very near the top of the leaderboards is because I run StV in all my decks?

It does seem like we are often engaged in two different arguments.

I'm glad you personally find StV vital to being at the top of the leaderboards.

Though I don't personally agree with your opinion, I respect that you have one; and understand that through different peoples perspectives and those perspectives reflecting on their playstyles, we're going to have different ideas of what's an overpowered card or not.

If your position was to just loudly complain about StV until it shifts into legacy, I'd have no issue with that, and might even though in a "Yeaah, it's a pretty mean card," from time to time.

It's when people try to start nerf movements, but there are many differing opinions on the power level of the card in question...that's I feel the need to actually oppose it.  As you know, I personally StV and find it okay where it is, as I've only lost a few rounds to it.  Cards in standard I have much more of an issue with are cards like

1. Darigaaz the returned (who once out is pretty much impossible to get rid of, plus a flyer with haste)
2. Lich's Mastery, reminds me when I used to play GoldenEye on the n64 with the invincibility cheat code.
3. Settle the Wreckage, I hate this one the most.  More often than not exiles all my creatures while making just as many gems as StV does, which ironically never seem to match on my turn and then my opponent dumps their entire hand, which usually includes another Settle the Wreckage.  In multiple games past, if StW dies with another support, it makes a glitch which instantly exiles all creatures I attack with for the rest of the game.  Making it worse than Lich's Mastery.
   

If nerfing is on the table, these are the cards that should be up for consideration, not StV.  From what I've read online, there seems to be much less dispute to the power level of those cards.  and here I spent 2 months worth of orbs buying every rare in Dominaria just to get Lich's Mastery, and I still think it deserves a nerf lol.

ZW2007-

FindingHeart8 said:

Cards in standard I have much more of an issue with are cards like

1. Darigaaz the returned (who once out is pretty much impossible to get rid of, plus a flyer with haste)
2. Lich's Mastery, reminds me when I used to play GoldenEye on the n64 with the invincibility cheat code.
3. Settle the Wreckage, I hate this one the most.  More often than not exiles all my creatures while making just as many gems as StV does, which ironically never seem to match on my turn and then my opponent dumps their entire hand, which usually includes another Settle the Wreckage.  In multiple games past, if StW dies with another support, it makes a glitch which instantly exiles all creatures I attack with for the rest of the game.  Making it worse than Lich's Mastery.
   

If nerfing is on the table, these are the cards that should be up for consideration, not StV.  From what I've read online, there seems to be much less dispute to the power level of those cards.  and here I spent 2 months worth of orbs buying every rare in Dominaria just to get Lich's Mastery, and I still think it deserves a nerf lol.

Ironic that some say StV is easy to deal with even though it makes it's own chaff to block support destruction while none of the cards listed do and yet these three are more of an issue for you than StV. I'm not saying you used the "dies to removal" argument against StV, just making an observation.

To reiterate once again, I don't want StV nerfed. I also don't want the devs to think I'm okay with its design. I'm not. This card is too good. It is the best mana engine this game has ever seen, hands down. It made me forget Rishkar's Expertise existed and that card was bonkers. It completely covered the loss of Hour of Promise by just playing blue on every node. It is okay to have broken cards, just not broken cards that enable you to endlessly cast all your other broken cards. Cards like this are unhealthy for game balance. Blue is the strongest color in the game by a vast majority. Why even continue making non-blue cards or planeswalkers? The reason to keep making non-blue cards and planeswalkers is because the game needs balance.

Different opinions and perspectives and playstyles are all well and good but the core of this game is gaining mana and casting cards. The more mana you gain, the more cards you can cast. No matter what perspective you take or how you play, StV enables you to do that faster and better than anything else. If for some reason you are choosing not to play StV, then you are doing so to your own detriment. 

Mburn7

ZW2007- said:

To reiterate once again, I don't want StV nerfed. I also don't want the devs to think I'm okay with its design. I'm not. This card is too good. It is the best mana engine this game has ever seen, hands down. It made me forget Rishkar's Expertise existed and that card was bonkers. It completely covered the loss of Hour of Promise by just playing blue on every node. It is okay to have broken cards, just not broken cards that enable you to endlessly cast all your other broken cards. Cards like this are unhealthy for game balance. Blue is the strongest color in the game by a vast majority. Why even continue making non-blue cards or planeswalkers? The reason to keep making non-blue cards and planeswalkers is because the game needs balance. 

Well said.  I would use the same argument for Blue Sun's Zenith.  

I don't mind having powerful cards in the game.  I don't think they should all be nerfed.
That being said, I do feel like the dev team needs to be aware of how their powerful cards will effect the game.  Giving absurd mana gains to blue is definitely a mistake, and one that would not have happened if they had put some thought into it (or had a concrete color pie definition that they adhered to)

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FindingHeart8

ZW2007- said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Cards in standard I have much more of an issue with are cards like

1. Darigaaz the returned (who once out is pretty much impossible to get rid of, plus a flyer with haste)
2. Lich's Mastery, reminds me when I used to play GoldenEye on the n64 with the invincibility cheat code.
3. Settle the Wreckage, I hate this one the most.  More often than not exiles all my creatures while making just as many gems as StV does, which ironically never seem to match on my turn and then my opponent dumps their entire hand, which usually includes another Settle the Wreckage.  In multiple games past, if StW dies with another support, it makes a glitch which instantly exiles all creatures I attack with for the rest of the game.  Making it worse than Lich's Mastery.
   

If nerfing is on the table, these are the cards that should be up for consideration, not StV.  From what I've read online, there seems to be much less dispute to the power level of those cards.  and here I spent 2 months worth of orbs buying every rare in Dominaria just to get Lich's Mastery, and I still think it deserves a nerf lol.

Ironic that some say StV is easy to deal with even though it makes it's own chaff to block support destruction while none of the cards listed do and yet these three are more of an issue for you than StV. I'm not saying you used the "dies to removal" argument against StV, just making an observation.

To reiterate once again, I don't want StV nerfed. I also don't want the devs to think I'm okay with its design. I'm not. This card is too good. It is the best mana engine this game has ever seen, hands down. It made me forget Rishkar's Expertise existed and that card was bonkers. It completely covered the loss of Hour of Promise by just playing blue on every node. It is okay to have broken cards, just not broken cards that enable you to endlessly cast all your other broken cards. Cards like this are unhealthy for game balance. Blue is the strongest color in the game by a vast majority. Why even continue making non-blue cards or planeswalkers? The reason to keep making non-blue cards and planeswalkers is because the game needs balance.

Different opinions and perspectives and playstyles are all well and good but the core of this game is gaining mana and casting cards. The more mana you gain, the more cards you can cast. No matter what perspective you take or how you play, StV enables you to do that faster and better than anything else. If for some reason you are choosing not to play StV, then you are doing so to your own detriment. 

I'm listening to your observation, but I'd like to point out that (as mentioned by the developers in previous announcements) that priority for support destruction was shifted to prioritize actual supports over treasures.  The argument that StV protects itself from support destruction is outdated.

The "unhealthy for game balance" argument is a subjective method for analyzing card power.  Yes Red/Blue has StV.  But for other colors, white has (as stated above) Settle the Wreckage, Green has Vivian's Invocation, and (will always have) Gaea's Revenge, Black has Slimefoot, Plague Wind, and Lich's Mastery.  These are all insanely powerful cards.  We could purge all these cards from the game and there would still be a section of players calling for further nerfs, because, in their personal opinion, we haven't reached that "healthy game balance" yet.

StV is great in a deck with creatures, StV is weak in a deck that's primarily spells or supports.  It's not useful everywhere.  This is not a black and white scenario.

When actually I'm paying attention to the game I'm playing (sometimes I just randomly swipe gems in non-coalition events and let my decks play themselves as I'm doing something else lol), I win pretty much every game I play (this is an experience I'm sure you share with me).  The difference between the two of us is that I don't run StV, and if I do it's probably one of the lowest priority cards in my hand.  Why do I do that?  Because throwing out fast-swinging creatures and beatfacing your opponent is as fast or faster than a StV setup.  Yeah StV might give my opponent the game, when they can get it to activate on turn 7.  But if I get my Captain Lannery Storm, Etali, and Skinshifter out by turn 3 or 4, they'll never get to see StV activate even if I let them have a creature on the board.

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FindingHeart8

MarvinFine said:

FindingHeart8 said:

StV is weak in a deck that's primarily spells or supports.

Not true. You can even use it to it's full potential in some completely creatureless decks.... Angrath, for example, can flip an StV with ease.

I was referring to a deck strategy itself, not including a specific planeswalker.  I also said, weak, not obsolete.  Relying on Angrath's 2nd ability and coordinating that casting StV the turn after for the raid effect is not something I would consider as dependable as other red tactics in standard.  However, were you referring to a different strategy?

FindingHeart8

Alright look, even if StV is as bad as you say it is...it is still in the shadow of Omniscience, and they didn't nerf Omniscience, why do you think they'll do anything to StV?