Vhailorx said: Fightmastermpq said: Vhailorx said: Can we get a redname comment on the issue? What exactly is the issue? C'mon fight, we all know you like the vaulting+bh change, but YOU know that lots of people disagree with your position. Contribute something to the conversation or move along. . .Lets say you are a new-ish player who started playing mpq in january of this year. How, exactly, are you supposed to cover and champ a 4* like iceman?The game doesn't treat vintage 4*s any differently than current 12 4*s when it comes to featured/boosted characrer rotations. But covering characters from the 2 different categories is like playing two completely different games. Doesn't that seem like a potential problem for the long term health of the game?Grimskald: i am surprised by your opinion. It seems rather myopic to assume that the only possible solutions to vaulting involve going back to the old system. . .
Fightmastermpq said: Vhailorx said: Can we get a redname comment on the issue? What exactly is the issue?
Vhailorx said: Can we get a redname comment on the issue?
Brigby said: Hi Everyone. Many players seem to be focusing on the 4-Star element of "Vaulting," so before moving further, may I ask who out of this thread is currently transitioning into, or residing within, "4-Star Land?" Since it seems to be the major focus point, it'd be great to hear feedback specifically from that demographic.
Eddiemon said: Vhailorx said: Fightmastermpq said: Vhailorx said: Can we get a redname comment on the issue? What exactly is the issue? C'mon fight, we all know you like the vaulting+bh change, but YOU know that lots of people disagree with your position. Contribute something to the conversation or move along. . .Lets say you are a new-ish player who started playing mpq in january of this year. How, exactly, are you supposed to cover and champ a 4* like iceman?The game doesn't treat vintage 4*s any differently than current 12 4*s when it comes to featured/boosted characrer rotations. But covering characters from the 2 different categories is like playing two completely different games. Doesn't that seem like a potential problem for the long term health of the game?Grimskald: i am surprised by your opinion. It seems rather myopic to assume that the only possible solutions to vaulting involve going back to the old system. . . How about contributing something logical yourself?Under the new system you can cover and champ an Iceman by setting him as a bonus hero and getting him 1 time in 20 on tokens. Under the old system you would have a 1 in 40something chance of pulling him. It would take over twice as long just going by random token pulls.If your goal is to cover and champ Iceman the new system is far more preferable to the old system. And no, having a pool of 4 stars that are focused on is great for the long term health of the system because transitioners can champ characters in a fraction of the time without needing 40 roster slots to catch random covers across the whole range.You can call out someone for myopic solutions, but you haven't actually defined a problem yet, just pointed out the things that vaulting dors BETTER than the old way and called them problems.
smkspy said: 4s go all the way up 370 in champ rewards, at this pace, I'd have to set my 271 Jean grey as my sole 4 star BH probably for remainder of the game's life to get her that high. This isn't even to mention the 14 other vaulted 4 champs stuck below 280. Those guys are stuck and until devs give up this fantasy that th 4 tier is the same as it was when hulkbuster was introduced, all those characters will wallow away under a now useless champ system.
New McG said: smkspy said: 4s go all the way up 370 in champ rewards, at this pace, I'd have to set my 271 Jean grey as my sole 4 star BH probably for remainder of the game's life to get her that high. This isn't even to mention the 14 other vaulted 4 champs stuck below 280. Those guys are stuck and until devs give up this fantasy that th 4 tier is the same as it was when hulkbuster was introduced, all those characters will wallow away under a now useless champ system. People seem to have this illusion that under the old system, every 4* would eventually get champed and end up at 370. As of this moment, that would mean 5000 4* covers needed AFTER already champing every 4*, which is an additional 650 covers, assuming perfect distribution and no waste. (And not including Dino or Howard.) At a rate of two more 4* added every 6 weeks (give or take some here and there) that means they're adding 226 extra 4* covers to that total every 6 weeks, or roughly 38 a week to "keep up". So, what's more likely scenario for working toward higher end champion levels: trying to keep up to that rate of covers (around 5 a day) over the long term, or building characters via a focused pool of LT draws at any given time, allowing 12 characters to grow 4 times faster, and providing bonus heroes as a supplement to also add levels to whatever character you may choose over time?
I had zero champion 4* prior to the vaulting change, now have 11 (or 12 I cant recall and don't have access to my phone presently).
My issues with vaulting are:
- Inability to get covers for 3/4th+ of the 4* tier by pulling tokens (rewards of retired 4*s are few and far between, if I'm lucky enough to get a reward 4* its more often than not one of the current 12)
- Inability to utilize the champion system beyond 10-20 levels... I'm assured that any new 4* cover I pull has no chance of being one of the 4*s I've championed that's outside of the current 12, so I can look forward to concentrated pulls on 4*s to get into the very weak champion levels (rewards and hero power) and it being nearly impossible to go further, greatly reduces a sense of progress and motivation
- Having to pull LTs on a schedule to hit featured 12 4*s... this requires the longest explanation: I don't accrue CP and LTs fast enough to cover a 5* before they expire out to classics and become excessively hard to acquire, so I hoard CP and LTs with the intent of pulling many at once to focus covers for the 3 5*s in latest legends, its the only feasible way I'll get adequately covered 5* heroes.
I used to be able to do this without penalty, anytime my hoard was ready I could look forward to pulling without significant detriment to my 4* progression. (Nearly all the covers I pull will be of heroes that I've worked on and already have covers for, if I were lucky some would have been champion rewards which help defray iso leveling costs) Now I'm not only guaranteed that I wont be hitting 4*s I have covers for, but depending on how long it takes me to acquire the hoard I could miss a 4* entirely. This is an issue for 4* transitioners due to the fact that there is a shared resource for acquiring 5*s and 4*s coupled with the difficulty of acquiring 5*s
What I do not have an issue with:
- ISO costs, I need to make as much iso as required to champion a 4* from scratch at the same rate or faster than the 4*s are released... this would still be true no matter what vaulting scheme is used... There is something to be said for distributing covers in such a way as to minimize the odds anyone sees high level lucrative champion rewards, but to me that's just splitting hairs where iso is concerned.
- Relative power of new heroes... There have been times I did not like the featured 12 on average, and times I have... relative strength of heroes being released has no bearing on evaluating the vaulting mechanic.
My first two issues can be addressed by giving the users the option to spend CP to pull from a store that has all the 4*s present, my third issue can not. I'm making an assumption by thinking that just providing an option to spend 20CP to pull from all available 4* and 5*s is not something D3/Demi is particularly keen on.
So FWIW my ideal solution would be short lived stores (similar to HfH) that allow CP to be spent that contain 3 5*s and 12 4*s chosen from the entire 5* and 4* pool respectively. If these stores change (at whatever frequency) it would provide incentive for people to spend instead of hoard on a combination they see as favorable...
I'm assuming purchases would be easier to model and predict when less users have giant hoards of CP/HP and new incentives would be more likely to trigger buy clubs if people aren't sitting on piles of CP.
It appears as if developer focus has moved several issues past investigating vaulting, is this something they're still looking into, and where is it on the priority list?
Thanks
SpringSoldier said: Friendly reminder: with or without vaulting, some covers will still go to waste. In fact, an undiluted vault/store offers better chances of champing a character quickly and not losing covers anymore. I still a want a token where I can get all the vaulted 4*, but it has nothing to do with wasted covers, ISO and so on. All the other issues will remain: champs will rarely reach max progression, some characters will be better than others etc.