Vaulting and its fallout are still significant issues in the game. . .

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Vhailorx
Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
in MPQ General Discussion
Can we get a redname comment on the issue?  Even a "we are still looking at possible solutions that will work given available dev resources" is better than what we have gotten.  and to be clear, what we have gotten is vintage heroic tokens in the offseason and a vague statement months ago that they were evaluating the vaulting changes.  Is this still a live issue for demi?  Because it is definitely a live issue for us players.
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  • ammenell
    ammenell Posts: 817 Critical Contributor
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    they are listening? 
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
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    Vhailorx said:
    Can we get a redname comment on the issue? 
    What exactly is the issue?
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2017
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    GrimSkald said:

    I dunno what they're going to do about the 5* dilution - that's a real problem, I think, that Bonus Heroes does little to solve.  But vaulting the 4* makes it much easier for newer players to actually cover 3* and  4* characters, rather than sit around in this purgatory of an ever-increasing pool of characters.  BH can be used to finish those characters that you've almost gotten.

    Release fewer 5*

    Right now you get 6 times as many 4* as you get 5* but they're concentrated on only 4 times as many 4* characters. That means 4* acquire covers 1.5 times faster.

    Additionally, 5* hang around in LL for 18 weeks, 4* stay for 36 weeks. Overall, that makes it three times as hard to get a 5* covered from tokens alone than it is for a 4*.

    As long as you only get 5* from tokens, slowing the crank is all you can do.


    That's the problem with the limited window of availability method: It's only really helpful if you have a certain minimum rate of cover acquisition.
  • n25philly
    n25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
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    Vhailorx said:
    Can we get a redname comment on the issue?  Even a "we are still looking at possible solutions that will work given available dev resources" is better than what we have gotten.  and to be clear, what we have gotten is vintage heroic tokens in the offseason and a vague statement months ago that they were evaluating the vaulting changes.  Is this still a live issue for demi?  Because it is definitely a live issue for us players.
    I sent a message to Brigby a week ago or so asking this as I wanted to see if it was still worth holding on or if the there wasn't any more hope for the game to actually be worth playing again.  His response was it is still being discussed but is on the back burner due to more pressing issues.  It's a shame there is no interest in fixing something that could be done so easily and they seem to be happy with turning the game into third rate garbage.
  • Wumpushunter
    Wumpushunter Posts: 627 Critical Contributor
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    Vhailorx said:
    Can we get a redname comment on the issue?  Even a "we are still looking at possible solutions that will work given available dev resources" is better than what we have gotten.  and to be clear, what we have gotten is vintage heroic tokens in the offseason and a vague statement months ago that they were evaluating the vaulting changes.  Is this still a live issue for demi?  Because it is definitely a live issue for us players.
    They consider the issue closed as vaulting accomplished their true goal of the HFH store. It was never about dilution or they would have removed all ways to get character covers just not the best ways. If I'm not suppose to collect a certain 4 star remove them from champ rewards, shut down the HFH store and stop giving the covers as rewards in event progression and vaults. Dilution does stop by making a thing rare, rarity only increase value, dilution stops by removing them 100% from the game.
  • badsaj
    badsaj Posts: 73 Match Maker
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    I was getting close to max covering a bunch of 4* when vaulting became a thing. Here's some of my 4* roster:


    fully covered: Gwenpool, Blade, Hulkbuster IM, Red Hulk, Nova. Iron Fist

    12 covers: Blade

    11 covers: Medusa, Spider-woman, Thor, Peggy, Agent Venom

    10 covers: Cyclops, Elektra, Coulson

    9 covers: Thing, Jean Grey

    A whole bunch at 6,7,8 covers.

    Obviously, those that are vaulted will take forever to champ, and those that are current will be champed in the next month or 2.


  • jgomes32
    jgomes32 Posts: 381 Mover and Shaker
    edited June 2017
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    I've "gotten used" to it as well. And like i said in previous threads it can be a good system on a long (or medium depending on where you were) period of time. I've been focusing on the latest 12 and will champ C&D later today (4* #30), then start Rocket, and eventually give the priority to Gamora and Sandman (3/2/5 and 2/2/2 respectively) as i get them fully covered. From there i can champ according to Pvp and Pve rewards. It just takes a while to get there. I can understand people who don't like vaulting, and would like to champ some vaulted favorites though .

    Just adding a 4* only Vitage token (always available) seems like such an easy "solution". I think the major problem with vaultig is that we don't have a choice really. 
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
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    Vhailorx said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Vhailorx said:
    Can we get a redname comment on the issue? 
    What exactly is the issue?
    C'mon fight, we all know you like the vaulting+bh change, but YOU know that lots of people disagree with your position.  Contribute something to the conversation or move along. . .

    Lets say you are a new-ish player who started playing mpq in january of this year.  How, exactly, are you supposed to cover and champ a 4* like iceman?

    The game doesn't treat vintage 4*s any differently than current 12 4*s when it comes to featured/boosted characrer rotations.  But covering characters from the 2 different categories is like playing two completely different games.  

    Doesn't that seem like a potential problem for the long term health of the game?

    Grimskald:  i am surprised by your opinion.  It seems rather myopic to assume that the only possible solutions to vaulting involve going back to the old system. . .
    I DID contribute something to the conversation, I got you to actually clarify what this "issue" you spoke of was.  Beforehand there was absolutely nothing to discuss.

    You cover and champ a 4* like Iceman by setting him as your only 4* BH, and setting Mystique as your only 3* BH.  I've added something like 40 levels to my Iceman since vaulting went live by doing exactly this.  He is currently 369 and I'm just waiting to finish off my Mystique dupe for his final cover.  I switched to C4rol a couple weeks ago and have already pulled half a dozen BH covers for her.

    Long term health of the game?  Vaulting has little to no impact, and BH offers a distinctly positive impact.  In the long term players are earning ISO at the same rate, and champing characters at the same rate.  The total number of champed characters on your roster will be the same, and your odds of having a boosted/featured character champed will be the same regardless.

    What was really killing the long term health of the game was dilution, and vaulting solved it at the 4* tier.
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
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    broll said:
    once 5* dilution starts becoming a real problem which will probably be in the next 6-12 months)

    I'd say it already is a problem now!! Good luck covering a 5* in the classic vault!!

    Vhailorx said:
    Fightmastermpq said:
    Vhailorx said:
    Can we get a redname comment on the issue? 
    What exactly is the issue?
    C'mon fight, we all know you like the vaulting+bh change, but YOU know that lots of people disagree with your position.  Contribute something to the conversation or move along. . .
    HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Great response Vhailorx!!!!

    Jarvind said:
    I've "gotten used" to vaulting too, but that doesn't mean it sucks any less for people with developed 4* rosters who want them to continue to grow in power. Yes, you can cover new characters much faster, but the older ones invariably go stagnant - they don't come up as progression rewards nearly often enough to see any appreciable increase in strength.

    I got Peggy from freshly-champed all the way to 294 before she got vaulted. Guess where she is now? 294.

    I'm out here fighting 320+ Blades on the regular, meanwhile since vaulting my Red Hulk has gone from 311 allllllll the way to...313.

    And if you're just breaking into 4* territory now? Good luck ever getting them covered in the first place.

    Bonus Heroes are not a solution. You don't get enough of them to realistically cover more than one or two characters in any reasonable amount of time. They are exactly what their name implies: a bonus. A little extra on top. Not a full-blown separate loot table to be counted on. Just ask the legions of people who have yet to ever see a single bonus 5* pull. I've gotten exactly one, and I count that as lucky.

    I'll repeat myself because it bears repeating: just because people get accustomed to something doesn't mean it stopped sucking.
    I have to agree with everything you say here. I, too, have "gotten used" to vaulting, but I still don't like it or believe in the long term it is good for the game. I've said it before, removing 75% of the second most powerful tier (arguably the most powerful tier, as 5* players admit boosted 4* are no joke) is not good for the game. And, that 75% grows as more are released and subsequently more are vaulted.

    Now, that's not to say I want all the characters in the same vault again. Because, I concede, that sucks too. HfH is not a good solution to acquiring covers either. With 50 4* cycling through it, it would take 150 days and 10800 HP to cover 1 character at 1/1/1. That is tinykitty tinykitty!!!!

    IMHO, a great solution would be to have a weekly boost vault, updated every Thursday when the new boost list goes active.  I've mentioned in a couple places on the forums and had some people say they like it, I've thought more on the mechanics of it to refine it more. Pretend this goes live today, it would contain all the 4* and 3* from this weeks list- Gamor4, Kingpin, Peggy, Flaptain, Spider-woman, Blad3, Hood, Hulk, KK, Vision. And, all the 4* and 3* from the previous weeks boost list- Blad4, Nova, R4G, War Machine, Winter Soldier, Daredevil, HE3, Squirrel Girl, SL3, Thor3. It would cost 10 cp with a 65/35 split between odds of a 3*/4*. RNG will still be a factor, you won't always get what you want. But, if you spend 100 cp a week on it you should end up with 3-4 4* and 6-7 3*, and earning 100+ cp a week is absolutely possible. Plus, for people that aren't interested in rostering a 5* now (or ever) this is an outlet for cp that should be really appealing.

    It does a far better job at solving dilution while also keeping all the 4* and 3* in vault at some point.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Milk Jugz said:
    broll said:
    once 5* dilution starts becoming a real problem which will probably be in the next 6-12 months)

    I'd say it already is a problem now!! Good luck covering a 5* in the classic vault!!
    I'd agree, but that's somewhat debatable and I was trying to address the debate before it started.  If they keep the current pace in 6 months there will be 17 in classics and in a year there will be 21.  Those numbers are unquestionably out of control especially when the devs solution to dilution for 4* was to limit it to 12.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,490 Chairperson of the Boards
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    broll said:
    How is making a seperate CP store for older 4*s and making the vintage heroes token/HP store a jump in 4* availablity or a huge coding project?  Those are the suggestions I see the most.  Sure there are some crazy ideas like let me chose 6 of the 12 that would be a ton of work but those are not the majority.

    That's a pretty good idea, but they've been fairly reluctant to add options to existing stores - I'm not 100% sure why as it seems like a good solution to their 5* dilution problem as well.  Possibly they feel the more options on the internal screens, the more likely people are to mess them up and complain.

    Interestingly enough, if, say a store existed where I could spend 20 CP to draw from the full (or non-recent) 4* pool and the "Classic" 5*s... I'd probably pass it up.  I'm interested to see where this train goes. We won't know the "full" impact until Iron Fist gets phased out - he was the first 4* introduced after the system.  Mine is currently 290.

  • Ruinate
    Ruinate Posts: 528 Critical Contributor
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    How are new players supposed to cover Iceman under the old system?  Since the day vaulting went live, how many Iceman covers do you realistically think you would have acquired through token pulls?  If 5* dilution is a problem, then so is 4* dilution, but Demi did something about it.  Vaulting.

    The question is why do something about 4* dilution, but not 5*'s??
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,290 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2017
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    My reaction to vaulting has somewhat lessened in vitriol as I do see how it helps new players (and veteran players) cover new characters.  On the other hand, it is a simple fix to offer veteran players (or new players if they choose) a vintage token option to fill out older characters.  The easiest fix would be to simply add a third 20 CP token called vintage legends that offers all other 4* not in current tokens.  What I would really like to see is legendary 25 CP tokens offer the current 12 new heroes, legend classic tokens offer the next 12 4* characters that just phased out and then the new token offers you the chance for all of the rest of the 4* out there.  You could also split 5* so that it helps reduce RNG somewhat in those draws.  For 3* characters, simply offer a vintage heroic or a current heroic.  

    Another option would be to have an additional bonus heroes option where you could designate three characters from each tier that can be added to all of your appropriate token tier draws.  For example, if I wanted to work on my Peggy Carter (who is 3/3/2), I could designate her as one of my three 4* options which then means I have a chance to draw one of her covers with every event, heroic, or legendary token I open, along with the new 12 too of course.  It is an optional dilution that each player could choose to do or not do?

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