GurlBYE said: This thread is a shining example of why the forums aren't very good.Not the negativity. The circular discussions that are nothing more then "well my roster is here""well my roster is here"If your arguments consistently and constantly only refute the other person based on "well for me its..." in a game based in rng, what exactly are you even in discussion about? How things played out for you?
If you eliminated pointless, circular "discussions" based on self-interest that went nowhere and accomplished nothing, I think you'd have to get rid of half the discussions on here and 3/4 of the most acrimonious ones - as well as half the forums on the internet.
And drawing broad conclusions based on how the recent changes affected you personally are hardly limited to those on the "pro-vaulting" side (not that you were saying they were).
As to negativity not being a major reason the forums "aren't very good," that may be true for you but for some people the negativity IS the reason they don't like the forums, so I assume you took it as a given that you meant they "aren't very good" ---- for you (which is kind of the point of...never mind).
Vhailorx said: You are correct that you don't say "awesome" in this quotation. But I think you are pretty clearly implying that BH for a top 10 or 20 vintage 4*s is a good solution for new players in combination with vaulting. You set a time horizon of "starting the game up to the point at which a player can champ a new 4* every 2 weeks."Well, we can make some educated guesses about those assertions. (1) On a mobile platform, it is basically possible to champ a new 4* every 2 weeks by grinding 4/6 in every pve event and playing ddq. (that will give players something like 20k iso a day, which is actually a little more than is needed). Doing this requires a player to have all 2*, 3* and 4* characters rostered so they never miss an essential node. In the current system, I think it will take 8-12 months for a new player to do this without spending lots of cash (basically they need to rank up to 32 so they can access CL 7 4* prog rewards, and then use those rewards to fill in the gaps in their vintage bench. They will likely get some 4*s from champ rewards and lucky vault pulls, but not there will definitely be gaps).(2) Per your assertion, in 8-12 months, a new player can use BH to "slowly cover" the top 10 or top 20 vintage 4*s. assuming they get at least 1 cover from other means, players need 12 more covers (assuming perfect distribution) to fully cover their favorited vintage 4*s. So in the easier to reach top 10 scenario, that means 120 bonus covers, which in turn means 2,400 4* cover pulls. I don't think many new players will get 2,400 4* cover pulls from heroic or legendary tokens during their first 8-12 months. Do you?You suggested that BH alone isn't enough to overcome dilution, but simultaneously suggested that BH + daily resupply/champ rewards/vault pulls/prog covers IS enough build up a bench of vintage 4*s that is now almost as large as the pre-vaulting "diluted" 4* pool. It's an absurd suggestion fight. And fwiw, I think that 5* BH bolted on to the old system would actually be a pretty great system for players. And Demi seems to agree with me since they balked at the idea and added in vaulting too (and further balked at the idea of putting vintage 4*s in classic LTs).P.S. The game isn't stagnant, but example scenarios are easier if we assume many pulls happening at the same time. Once we start to account for the continued progress of the game over time, your argument actually gets a bit worse, since players need to keep grinding to preserve their LT efficiency. Yes, chasing the release schedule is a feature present in both the new system and the old system. But the new system imposes a much greater cost on players who "skip" a release and don't champ a current 12 4*. In the old system, a single unchamped 4* was a relatively small 1.8% risk of wasted covers. In the new system, each missing current 12 member is a 7% hit to LT efficiency that lasts for about 8 months.
Well, we can make some educated guesses about those assertions.
(1) On a mobile platform, it is basically possible to champ a new 4* every 2 weeks by grinding 4/6 in every pve event and playing ddq. (that will give players something like 20k iso a day, which is actually a little more than is needed). Doing this requires a player to have all 2*, 3* and 4* characters rostered so they never miss an essential node. In the current system, I think it will take 8-12 months for a new player to do this without spending lots of cash (basically they need to rank up to 32 so they can access CL 7 4* prog rewards, and then use those rewards to fill in the gaps in their vintage bench. They will likely get some 4*s from champ rewards and lucky vault pulls, but not there will definitely be gaps).
(2) Per your assertion, in 8-12 months, a new player can use BH to "slowly cover" the top 10 or top 20 vintage 4*s. assuming they get at least 1 cover from other means, players need 12 more covers (assuming perfect distribution) to fully cover their favorited vintage 4*s. So in the easier to reach top 10 scenario, that means 120 bonus covers, which in turn means 2,400 4* cover pulls. I don't think many new players will get 2,400 4* cover pulls from heroic or legendary tokens during their first 8-12 months. Do you?
You suggested that BH alone isn't enough to overcome dilution, but simultaneously suggested that BH + daily resupply/champ rewards/vault pulls/prog covers IS enough build up a bench of vintage 4*s that is now almost as large as the pre-vaulting "diluted" 4* pool. It's an absurd suggestion fight.
And fwiw, I think that 5* BH bolted on to the old system would actually be a pretty great system for players. And Demi seems to agree with me since they balked at the idea and added in vaulting too (and further balked at the idea of putting vintage 4*s in classic LTs).
P.S. The game isn't stagnant, but example scenarios are easier if we assume many pulls happening at the same time. Once we start to account for the continued progress of the game over time, your argument actually gets a bit worse, since players need to keep grinding to preserve their LT efficiency. Yes, chasing the release schedule is a feature present in both the new system and the old system. But the new system imposes a much greater cost on players who "skip" a release and don't champ a current 12 4*. In the old system, a single unchamped 4* was a relatively small 1.8% risk of wasted covers. In the new system, each missing current 12 member is a 7% hit to LT efficiency that lasts for about 8 months.
Fightmastermpq said: But I do know that if you install the game today and set your 4* BH at Peggy or whoever you think the best character is, then she will certainly be fully covered by the time you get to the point where you are pulling in 25-30k ISO/day. I'm unsure of how long this actually takes, I was assuming it would take like 2 years because that's about how long it took me, but now I'm realizing that with all the changes they've made recently your estimate of 8-12 months is probably better.
While I agree with much of what you say, I do think you are overestimating how long it would have taken to get the 4*s covered under the old system. I was too before I started tracking my resources and covers. I started playing on 11/17. From February 15 to April 25, I got about 172 4* covers (160 usable and I'm estimating about a dozen I sold [I know I had at least 10 but am unsure of exactly how many]). That's about 75 a month. It does include a purchase of two 40 packs for my birthday, which isn't typical, so let's say 70. With 47 characters, that would take far less than a year on average to champ them (though with unicorns and stalkers, you probably wouldn't have them all covered by then). Of course, by then, there would be around another 18 4*s, but it's still less than a year.
As for resources, I earn about 53k ISO a day. This is way more than I estimated, even though I estimated by adding up what I thought I was getting from various sources. I would guess that most players similarly underestimate the resources they earn.
Of course, I do not fit Vil's profile of just doing 4/6 on PvE (and not playing PvP?). I do six clears on PvE and try for top 50 in PvP and am not sure I could keep that pace up for a year, but other than the time commitment, it's not difficult and I'm sure there are players who could. I also spent money on the game early on and would estimate that it accelerated my progress by a month or two.
astrp3 said: Fightmastermpq said: But I do know that if you install the game today and set your 4* BH at Peggy or whoever you think the best character is, then she will certainly be fully covered by the time you get to the point where you are pulling in 25-30k ISO/day. I'm unsure of how long this actually takes, I was assuming it would take like 2 years because that's about how long it took me, but now I'm realizing that with all the changes they've made recently your estimate of 8-12 months is probably better. While I agree with much of what you say, I do think you are overestimating how long it would have taken to get the 4*s covered under the old system. I was too before I started tracking my resources and covers. I started playing on 11/17. From February 15 to April 25, I got about 172 4* covers (160 usable and I'm estimating about a dozen I sold [I know I had at least 10 but am unsure of exactly how many]). That's about 75 a month. It does include a purchase of two 40 packs for my birthday, which isn't typical, so let's say 70. With 47 characters, that would take far less than a year on average to champ them (though with unicorns and stalkers, you probably wouldn't have them all covered by then). Of course, by then, there would be around another 18 4*s, but it's still less than a year. As for resources, I earn about 53k ISO a day. This is way more than I estimated, even though I estimated by adding up what I thought I was getting from various sources. I would guess that most players similarly underestimate the resources they earn.Of course, I do not fit Vil's profile of just doing 4/6 on PvE (and not playing PvP?). I do six clears on PvE and try for top 50 in PvP and am not sure I could keep that pace up for a year, but other than the time commitment, it's not difficult and I'm sure there are players who could. I also spent money on the game early on and would estimate that it accelerated my progress by a month or two.
Jaedenkaal said: BoyWonder1914 said:For God's sake, no one is arguing the value of Bonus Heroes. A 5% chance to specifically get someone you want is fantastic. ... I don't give a damn if I'm still champing 4s at the exact same rate. All people want here, is access to the covers that THEY want, not who the game forces you to pull with vaulting, not who everyone recommends is the bees knees. Vaulting cuts you off from a pool that contains what you want, even if that pool was diluted, it's better than NOTHING. Sure you can make someone a bonus hero, but what happens after you've got most people in the limited 12-vault fully covered? How the heck are you expecting to get 156 4* covers in so short a time, and yet not also get enough ISO to champ any of them? I estimate that I get one 4* cover per day on average, so it would take me 6 months or achieve this, by which time roughly 8 new 4*s would have been released, which would have added an additional 104 covers that I would need to gain before having them all fully covered, which would take me another 3 months, by which time, and etc...You're also avoiding the non-zero chance to get a vaulted character from sources other than tokens. In the last 45 days I have acquired, merely by logging in, playing DDQ, and getting the 4* progression from PVE:1x Ghost rider1x Carnage1x Miles Morales1x Red Hulk1x hulkbuster1x Iceman1x Mr FantasticFrom login rewards, champion rewards, PVE progression rewards, and vault tokens (DDQ, etc). Which is roughly the distribution (of those characters) that I would have expected to see to vaulting; ie, 0-1 of each.
BoyWonder1914 said:For God's sake, no one is arguing the value of Bonus Heroes. A 5% chance to specifically get someone you want is fantastic. ... I don't give a damn if I'm still champing 4s at the exact same rate. All people want here, is access to the covers that THEY want, not who the game forces you to pull with vaulting, not who everyone recommends is the bees knees. Vaulting cuts you off from a pool that contains what you want, even if that pool was diluted, it's better than NOTHING. Sure you can make someone a bonus hero, but what happens after you've got most people in the limited 12-vault fully covered?
BoyWonder1914 said: I had a hoard of 1000 CP, and blew it all trying to get Peggy and Kate Bishop fully covered. And this was like 2 or 3 months ago, I've since built up another 1000 CP. The only people of the 12 I don't have fully covered are HoboFist, Mordo, CM4, and Coulson. And even they are getting close, without me having used an LT or any CP at all. Covering them is the least of my worries. But if I can't pull, that means no bonus heroes. No bonus heroes, no vaulted people. No tinykitty they come naturally from progression in events, but that happens what, maybe once a year? I know damn well I'd have better odds than blowing an LT/CP hoard on a pool that contains them.
BoyWonder1914 said: Why should I be convinced that pull after pull from a vault of people I mostly have fully covered, just hoping for the occasional bonus of someone vaulted, is BETTER than just pulling from a vault that has these people, GUARANTEEING I'll get at least 1 on every pull? Please, stop trying to sing us the praises of the broken system.
Jaedenkaal said: BoyWonder1914 said: Why should I be convinced that pull after pull from a vault of people I mostly have fully covered, just hoping for the occasional bonus of someone vaulted, is BETTER than just pulling from a vault that has these people, GUARANTEEING I'll get at least 1 on every pull? Please, stop trying to sing us the praises of the broken system. There was never such a token, unless you mean "people I either have championed, or have rostered but don't have nearly fully covered so if I did draw a cover for them I could still use it". Also you'd get at most one on every pull, not at least. Unless you're talking about an imaginary new token that contains only old characters, which is not what this thread is about.As far as I can tell, the current token is people you mostly have fully covered. 10/12 I think you said. You don't want them specifically, apparently, which is up to you.If your CP income is really that high, and if you care so little you could also buy key covers for vaulted characters if they're close to being championed. Obviously that won't improve your ability to level up a championed character (an generally acknowledged flaw/hidden intent of the current system) but it's fast, which seems important to you.No one is arguing that you should abandon your roster plans. However, given that your roster -strategy- was built making assumptions that were true in the old system and were not true in the new system, you will definitely need to adapt your strategy to best meet your plans, given the new system.
If you can manage T100 release, alliance release cover, and the progression reward (i.e. 3 covers for each new character launch) then by pulling one 4* from tokens every 2 days you can get a new character covered in about 8 months. For the sake of comparison at 0.5 4* covers/day and a new 4* every 3 weeks under the old system it would take you about 2.5 years to cover a 4*. So how many 4* covers are you pulling from tokens every day? Do you know? Have you tracked it? Can you with certainty say that you can't earn a 4* every other day? And do you honestly believe that at no point over the next 1.7 years you will progress to a point where you are earning 4*s at better than 1 every other day? If you haven't thought these things through then you haven't been acting rationally.
n25philly said: If you can manage T100 release, alliance release cover, and the progression reward (i.e. 3 covers for each new character launch) then by pulling one 4* from tokens every 2 days you can get a new character covered in about 8 months. For the sake of comparison at 0.5 4* covers/day and a new 4* every 3 weeks under the old system it would take you about 2.5 years to cover a 4*. So how many 4* covers are you pulling from tokens every day? Do you know? Have you tracked it? Can you with certainty say that you can't earn a 4* every other day? And do you honestly believe that at no point over the next 1.7 years you will progress to a point where you are earning 4*s at better than 1 every other day? If you haven't thought these things through then you haven't been acting rationally. and for the billionth time, what if you can't do all these things. Never gotten top 100. I don't even know what you are taking about with alliance release cover. No, I don't get three covers from progression, I've never gotten 1 4* cover from progression.I haven't pulled a single token since the change. Again, because what is the point? If I can't roster what I a am pulling it will be a pittance of iso. Not everyone can afford to waste pulls. Then again if it's not what you do it must not happen, right?
mohio said: n25philly said: If you can manage T100 release, alliance release cover, and the progression reward (i.e. 3 covers for each new character launch) then by pulling one 4* from tokens every 2 days you can get a new character covered in about 8 months. For the sake of comparison at 0.5 4* covers/day and a new 4* every 3 weeks under the old system it would take you about 2.5 years to cover a 4*. So how many 4* covers are you pulling from tokens every day? Do you know? Have you tracked it? Can you with certainty say that you can't earn a 4* every other day? And do you honestly believe that at no point over the next 1.7 years you will progress to a point where you are earning 4*s at better than 1 every other day? If you haven't thought these things through then you haven't been acting rationally. and for the billionth time, what if you can't do all these things. Never gotten top 100. I don't even know what you are taking about with alliance release cover. No, I don't get three covers from progression, I've never gotten 1 4* cover from progression.I haven't pulled a single token since the change. Again, because what is the point? If I can't roster what I a am pulling it will be a pittance of iso. Not everyone can afford to waste pulls. Then again if it's not what you do it must not happen, right? If you don't get any 4* covers through "normal" game play (i.e. progression or placement rewards), why are you commenting on this thread about the vaulting of 4*? This change can only be positive for you as there sure as tinykitty was no way you were going to cover a 4* through the old system with how few covers you win and how few cp/LT you earn. At least with vaulting you have a way of getting there by hoarding enough pulls so you might reasonably expect to fully cover someone eventually. But it sounds like you don't really care about competing for top rewards, why do you care about collecting 4*? To your second point - seriously, what was the point in opening tokens before? You certainly weren't getting anywhere close to covering anything before vaulting, why did you pull tokens then? some tiny chance you could add to your 1/1/1 XFW that you got from daily resupply?
mohio said: n25Philly - did you ever post what alliance you're in so we can look at your roster? I'm super curious what it looks like. The reason I say this is the following, I'll be more generic so it's not just about you...The people most screwed by the change in my eyes are those who have MANY old 4* at 11-12 covers. I'm talking like 5+. As this thread is asking about math - we're going to look at the math behind why! Under the old system you would average getting those last 1 or 2 covers over 55-110 pulls. But the kicker is you'd be finishing all 5+ that were only 1 or 2 covers away (obviously this is a back of the envelope average and doesn't account for terrible RNG, dupe covers you can't use, etc.). Under the new system, it's fixed at around 1 every 23 pulls. So 5 chars 1 cover away will take longer (115 instead of 55), but if it's just 2 characters and you need 2 covers each? That will take 46 pulls per character (92 total) instead of 110.
Starfury said: mohio said: n25Philly - did you ever post what alliance you're in so we can look at your roster? I'm super curious what it looks like. The reason I say this is the following, I'll be more generic so it's not just about you...The people most screwed by the change in my eyes are those who have MANY old 4* at 11-12 covers. I'm talking like 5+. As this thread is asking about math - we're going to look at the math behind why! Under the old system you would average getting those last 1 or 2 covers over 55-110 pulls. But the kicker is you'd be finishing all 5+ that were only 1 or 2 covers away (obviously this is a back of the envelope average and doesn't account for terrible RNG, dupe covers you can't use, etc.). Under the new system, it's fixed at around 1 every 23 pulls. So 5 chars 1 cover away will take longer (115 instead of 55), but if it's just 2 characters and you need 2 covers each? That will take 46 pulls per character (92 total) instead of 110. I don't worry about my 11 cover vaulted 4*, BH, other sources or 120cp will eventually take care of them, if I want to champ them.Actually, the ones most screwed are the ones who have got most 4* rostered, but mostly halfway covered. With vaulting, they've no longer got a realistic path to covering most of those vaulted characters, yet they've already invested a significant amount of their resources into them.People who have (almost) no covers in vaulted 4* won't ever get most of them to a usable level, but at least they have sunk less resources into those characters. For them, the 4* game has simply become smaller.Also, people who have the vaulted 4* champed will experience a few months of fewer champ rewards before the latest 12 have caught up to the older, more advanced champs. Ultimately, they'll just be stuck with the vaulted champs, mostly stuck in permanent limbo.
Starfury said: You're conveniently ignoring the 100-200 4* covers for those now mostly useless characters.For someone still in the process of covering their first 4*, that represents most 4* pulls they ever had.
n25philly said: Stated about a billion times before, but why not one more time. This hit right as I was finishing up the 3* tier. So up until now that was my focus. I'd horde cp/LT until I had enough for an extra roster spot and pull until I had someone new to put in there. It worked because I always new I could continue to cover them later.Now the change comes, I am finished up with the 3* tier except for Hawkeye and SL since they just came out and ready to focus on starting the 4*'s. Now it's about an 80% chance of pulling someone I don't have a roster spot for (not including odds of pulling a 5*) so any pulls are most likely pure waste. When your covers come from tokens and champ rewards that makes things worse, not better. I know, I must be a horrible person because I don't treat the game like a second job, so I guess that means I am not allowed to more forward, even slowly?That's the problem, it doesn't make sense to pull until I have the hp/iso to virtually roster/level everyone in the 12 and that is going to take a very, very long time.