Has anyone done the math?

astrp3

GurlBYE said:

This thread is a shining example of why the forums aren't very good.

Not the negativity. 
The circular discussions that are nothing more then "well my roster is here"
"well my roster is here"

If your arguments consistently and constantly only refute the other person based on "well for me its..." in a game based in rng, what exactly are you even in discussion about? How things played out for you?

If you eliminated pointless, circular "discussions" based on self-interest that went nowhere and accomplished nothing, I think you'd have to get rid of half the discussions on here and 3/4 of the most acrimonious ones - as well as half the forums on the internet.

And drawing broad conclusions based on how the recent changes affected you personally are hardly limited to those on the "pro-vaulting" side (not that you were saying they were).

As to negativity not being a major reason the forums  "aren't very good," that may be true for you but for some people the negativity IS the reason they don't like the forums, so I assume you took it as a given that you meant they "aren't very good" ---- for you (which is kind of the point of...never mind).

Fightmastermpq

Vhailorx said:

You are correct that you don't say "awesome" in this quotation.  But I think you are pretty clearly implying that BH for a top 10 or 20 vintage 4*s is a good solution for new players in combination with vaulting.  You set a time horizon of "starting the game up to the point at which a player can champ a new 4* every 2 weeks."

Well, we can make some educated guesses about those assertions. 

(1) On a mobile platform, it is basically possible to champ a new 4* every 2 weeks by grinding 4/6 in every pve event and playing ddq. (that will give players something like 20k iso a day, which is actually a little more than is needed).  Doing this requires a player to have all 2*, 3* and 4* characters rostered so they never miss an essential node.  In the current system, I think it will take 8-12 months for a new player to do this without spending lots of cash (basically they need to rank up to 32 so they can access CL 7 4* prog rewards, and then use those rewards to fill in the gaps in their vintage bench.  They will likely get some 4*s from champ rewards and lucky vault pulls, but not there will definitely be gaps).

(2) Per your assertion, in 8-12 months, a new player can use BH to "slowly cover" the top 10 or top 20 vintage 4*s.  assuming they get at least 1 cover from other means, players need 12 more covers (assuming perfect distribution) to fully cover their favorited vintage 4*s.  So in the easier to reach top 10 scenario, that means 120 bonus covers, which in turn means 2,400 4* cover pulls.  I don't think many new players will get 2,400 4* cover pulls from heroic or legendary tokens during their first 8-12 months.  Do you?

You suggested that BH alone isn't enough to overcome dilution, but simultaneously suggested that BH + daily resupply/champ rewards/vault pulls/prog covers IS enough build up a bench of vintage 4*s that is now almost as large as the pre-vaulting "diluted" 4* pool.  It's an absurd suggestion fight. 

And fwiw, I think that 5* BH bolted on to the old system would actually be a pretty great system for players.  And Demi seems to agree with me since they balked at the idea and added in vaulting too (and further balked at the idea of putting vintage 4*s in classic LTs).

P.S.  The game isn't stagnant, but example scenarios are easier if we assume many pulls happening at the same time.  Once we start to account for the continued progress of the game over time, your argument actually gets a bit worse, since players need to keep grinding to preserve their LT efficiency.  Yes, chasing the release schedule is a feature present in both the new system and the old system.  But the new system imposes a much greater cost on players who "skip" a release and don't champ a current 12 4*.  In the old system, a single unchamped 4* was a relatively small 1.8% risk of wasted covers.  In the new system, each missing current 12 member is a 7% hit to LT efficiency that lasts for about 8 months. 

Thanks, now we are having a real discussion!  Maybe T10 or T20 is too many to make meaningful progress on all at once, I don't know.  But I do know that if you install the game today and set your 4* BH at Peggy or whoever you think the best character is, then she will certainly be fully covered by the time you get to the point where you are pulling in 25-30k ISO/day.  I'm unsure of how long this actually takes, I was assuming it would take like 2 years because that's about how long it took me, but now I'm realizing that with all the changes they've made recently your estimate of 8-12 months is probably better.  Regardless, the time frame only marks the starting point for when you get to hop on the hamster wheel, up until then you are falling behind.  So once you get on the wheel you start champing new characters as they are released and you have a little extra ISO left over to spend on vaulted 4s.  How much depends on your earn rate, so if you are bringing in 35k/day you get about 10k/day extra or a champed vaulted character every 5 weeks.  For the sake of argument, let's be generous and say that after a year of play you can bring in 50k/day - an old champ for every new champ.  With 47 4s currently, plus another 12 in 8 months that's 55 old characters that will need champed.  If you can champ one of them every other week that's about 2.5 years before you have the ISO to champ them all.  This is almost exactly the same with and without vaulting mind you (I won't even argue the point that from T=0 a new player is going to get to that 50k/day earn rate much faster with vaulting due to being competitive at a 4* level much sooner). And so yes, I believe that in 2.5 years a player at this level probably does generate 2400 4* pulls.  And again, this doesn't even consider earning older covers from rewards, vaults, champ levels, etc.  Heck in 2.5 years you can probably cycle through all your 3*s twice for 6 more covers on most of those older 4*s......

So look, it's definitely not awesome.  In fact I was one of the first to say that BH sucks.  One of my first posts on the subject was that they should give you 5% on 3 characters for 15% total - similar to when they first released 5*s and you could pull your LTs for a 5% shot at SS or wait and get a 5% shot at both SS and OML.  If you pick 3 BH you get 5% on each, but selecting 1 won't give you 15% on that one character.  You bring 3 heroes to battle, let me bring 3 of my choice up at the same speed.  But we are stuck with 5% and so that is what we use in our math.

This is why we can't look at the current lot of characters as stagnate just to make the math easy - it's not reality.  Reality is that the game is a grind, and with or without vaulting it takes a LONG time to get to a point where you have any hope at all of champing characters faster than they are released so that you can in fact one day champ them all, and to try and look at vaulting without this consideration does it no justice at all.

astrp3

Fightmastermpq said:

But I do know that if you install the game today and set your 4* BH at Peggy or whoever you think the best character is, then she will certainly be fully covered by the time you get to the point where you are pulling in 25-30k ISO/day.  I'm unsure of how long this actually takes, I was assuming it would take like 2 years because that's about how long it took me, but now I'm realizing that with all the changes they've made recently your estimate of 8-12 months is probably better. 

While I agree with much of what you say, I do think you are overestimating how long it would have taken to get the 4*s covered under the old system. I was too before I started tracking my resources and covers. I started playing on 11/17. From February 15 to April 25, I got about 172 4* covers (160 usable and I'm estimating about a dozen I sold  [I know I had at least 10 but am unsure of exactly how many]). That's about 75 a month. It does include a purchase of two 40 packs for my birthday, which isn't typical, so let's say 70. With 47 characters, that would take far less than a year on average to champ them (though with unicorns and stalkers, you probably wouldn't have them all covered by then). Of course, by then, there would be around another 18 4*s, but  it's still less than a year.

As for resources, I earn about 53k ISO a day. This is way more than I estimated, even though I estimated by adding up what I thought I was getting from various sources. I would guess that most players similarly underestimate the resources they earn.

Of course, I do not fit Vil's profile of just doing 4/6 on PvE (and not playing PvP?). I do six clears on PvE and try for top 50 in PvP and am not sure I could keep that pace up for a year, but other than the time commitment, it's not difficult and I'm sure there are players who could. I also spent money on the game early on and would estimate that it accelerated my progress by a month or two.

Fightmastermpq

astrp3 said:

Fightmastermpq said:

But I do know that if you install the game today and set your 4* BH at Peggy or whoever you think the best character is, then she will certainly be fully covered by the time you get to the point where you are pulling in 25-30k ISO/day.  I'm unsure of how long this actually takes, I was assuming it would take like 2 years because that's about how long it took me, but now I'm realizing that with all the changes they've made recently your estimate of 8-12 months is probably better. 

While I agree with much of what you say, I do think you are overestimating how long it would have taken to get the 4*s covered under the old system. I was too before I started tracking my resources and covers. I started playing on 11/17. From February 15 to April 25, I got about 172 4* covers (160 usable and I'm estimating about a dozen I sold  [I know I had at least 10 but am unsure of exactly how many]). That's about 75 a month. It does include a purchase of two 40 packs for my birthday, which isn't typical, so let's say 70. With 47 characters, that would take far less than a year on average to champ them (though with unicorns and stalkers, you probably wouldn't have them all covered by then). Of course, by then, there would be around another 18 4*s, but  it's still less than a year.

As for resources, I earn about 53k ISO a day. This is way more than I estimated, even though I estimated by adding up what I thought I was getting from various sources. I would guess that most players similarly underestimate the resources they earn.

Of course, I do not fit Vil's profile of just doing 4/6 on PvE (and not playing PvP?). I do six clears on PvE and try for top 50 in PvP and am not sure I could keep that pace up for a year, but other than the time commitment, it's not difficult and I'm sure there are players who could. I also spent money on the game early on and would estimate that it accelerated my progress by a month or two.

I agree with all of what you said.  I'm not trying to make the absurd claim that BH will cover older characters faster than the old system.  I'm simply trying to dispel the myth that BH can't cover the older 4*s soon enough to prevent being cover starved.  What I'm saying is that it's very unlikely that players will find themselves in a position where they have all the new and most of the old 4*s champed with ISO on hand but can't pull older covers because BH isn't good enough to catch up.  Even at the terrible 5% rate BH will still get you there over time.

BoyWonder1914

Jaedenkaal said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

For God's sake, no one is arguing the value of Bonus Heroes. A 5% chance to specifically get someone you want is fantastic. 

...

 I don't give a damn if I'm still champing 4s at the exact same rate. All people want here, is access to the covers that THEY want, not who the game forces you to pull with vaulting, not who everyone recommends is the bees knees. Vaulting cuts you off from a pool that contains what you want, even if that pool was diluted, it's better than NOTHING. Sure you can make someone a bonus hero, but what happens after you've got most people in the limited 12-vault fully covered? 

How the heck are you expecting to get 156 4* covers in so short a time, and yet not also get enough ISO to champ any of them?

I estimate that I get one 4* cover per day on average, so it would take me 6 months or achieve this, by which time roughly 8 new 4*s would have been released, which would have added an additional 104 covers that I would need to gain before having them all fully covered, which would take me another 3 months, by which time, and etc...

You're also avoiding the non-zero chance to get a vaulted character from sources other than tokens. In the last 45 days I have acquired, merely by logging in, playing DDQ, and getting the 4* progression from PVE:

1x Ghost rider
1x Carnage
1x Miles Morales
1x Red Hulk
1x hulkbuster
1x Iceman
1x Mr Fantastic

From login rewards, champion rewards, PVE progression rewards, and vault tokens (DDQ, etc). Which is roughly the distribution (of those characters) that I would have expected to see  to vaulting; ie, 0-1 of each.

I had a hoard of 1000 CP, and blew it all trying to get Peggy and Kate Bishop fully covered. And this was like 2 or 3 months ago, I've since built up another 1000 CP. The only people of the 12 I don't have fully covered are HoboFist, Mordo, CM4, and Coulson. And even they are getting close, without me having used an LT or any CP at all. Covering them is the least of my worries. But if I can't pull, that means no bonus heroes. No bonus heroes, no vaulted people. 

No **** they come naturally from progression in events, but that happens what, maybe once a year? I know damn well I'd have better odds than blowing an LT/CP hoard on a pool that contains them. 

Jaedenkaal

BoyWonder1914 said:

I had a hoard of 1000 CP, and blew it all trying to get Peggy and Kate Bishop fully covered. And this was like 2 or 3 months ago, I've since built up another 1000 CP. The only people of the 12 I don't have fully covered are HoboFist, Mordo, CM4, and Coulson. And even they are getting close, without me having used an LT or any CP at all. Covering them is the least of my worries. But if I can't pull, that means no bonus heroes. No bonus heroes, no vaulted people. 

No tinykitty they come naturally from progression in events, but that happens what, maybe once a year? I know damn well I'd have better odds than blowing an LT/CP hoard on a pool that contains them. 

Was that after bonus heroes and vaulting was released? How many bonus 4*s and 5*s did you get from those 40/50 tokens? (2.5 being the expected rate)
If not, how many Peggy and Kate Bishop covers did you get? With 50 classic tokens you would expect to see 42.5 4*s, which is less than one cover per character on average. Sure with random distribution you might get 3-4 of the same character (and none for several others) but that could just as easily have been 4 covers for Venom, or 4 covers all for the same color that you don't need, etc...

Your chances of actually covering Peggy and Kate under the old system with a 1000 CP 'hoard' were laughable, unless you only needed 1 cover each (and one could argue in that case you'd be better off spending the 120 cp each rather than risk spending 1000 and not getting any)
 
So now you're saving your new hoard for when the chance of pulling a cover you can't use isn't so high, which makes sense. And when you do pull them whenever you decide your CP hoard is worth using, you'll still get the same number of bonus heroes on average. And the bonus hero odds aren't changing, as far as I know, so that's just a delay, if anything. The duration of that delay is really up to you.

I guess I'd recommend champing those characters who you have fully covered who will be in the vault for the longest before champing those who will rotate out soon so that you'll have a better 'usable' percentage of token draws in shorter time. If you can champ a fully-covered 4* in 2 weeks then in a month you'll have 9/12 usable draws from legendary tokens (+/- 1) which seems pretty reasonable and certainly close to equivalent to the prior system.

BoyWonder1914

After vaulting, before Bonus Heroes. 1st of all, the only reason I felt the need to try to rush cover Kate and Peggy in the first place was because vaulting was introduced, and from what I understood, once those people left the vault, they were GONE. Screw waiting around on PVE/PVP progression, screw waiting on champ rewards. Peggy was THAT good of a character that I needed to get her fully covered at all costs while I had the best chance to.

If vaulting would have never been introduced, I would have been perfectly content with blowing my hoard and letting the covers fall as they may, whether Kate/Peggy ended up fully covered or not. Because my tokens were going to an overall greater distribution of 4-stars that were largely undercovered, and I was moving a greater percentage of my 4-star roster forward at once. If I don't have to worry about people leaving, it doesn't matter when I get to the 13th cover, I'm sure I'll be champing plenty of other useful people along the way. When you instead tell me that I have X amount of time to champ this character before I lose the ONLY immediately accessible way to a chance at them, then yes, covering them becomes a priority. Whereas previously I didn't care who got to their 13th cover and when, you're now forcing me to pick specific people to work on at one time, because its literally your only other direct shot at getting covers for these 30+ people until who knows when. 

You're not going to convince me to believe that being forced to abandon my roster plans is "good". People have their roster plans because they have THEIR way that they want to play the game, not just what the meta dictates. You're also no way in hell gonna convince me that Vaulting + Bonus Heroes is better than the 5* model + Bonus Heroes. Why should I be convinced that pull after pull from a vault of people I mostly have fully covered, just hoping for the occasional bonus of someone vaulted, is BETTER than just pulling from a vault that has these people, GUARANTEEING I'll get at least 1 on every pull? Please, stop trying to sing us the praises of the broken system. 

Jaedenkaal

BoyWonder1914 said:

Why should I be convinced that pull after pull from a vault of people I mostly have fully covered, just hoping for the occasional bonus of someone vaulted, is BETTER than just pulling from a vault that has these people, GUARANTEEING I'll get at least 1 on every pull? Please, stop trying to sing us the praises of the broken system. 

There was never such a token, unless you mean "people I either have championed, or have rostered but don't have nearly fully covered so if I did draw a cover for them I could still use it". Also you'd get at most one on every pull, not at least. Unless you're talking about an imaginary new token that contains only old characters, which is not what this thread is about.

As far as I can tell, the current token is people you mostly have fully covered. 10/12 I think you said. You don't want them specifically, apparently, which is up to you.

If your CP income is really that high, and if you care so little you could also buy key covers for vaulted characters if they're close to being championed. Obviously that won't improve your ability to level up a championed character (an generally acknowledged flaw/hidden intent of the current system) but it's fast, which seems important to you.

No one is arguing that you should abandon your roster plans. However, given that your roster -strategy- was built making assumptions that were true in the old system and were not true in the new system, you will definitely need to adapt your strategy to best meet your plans, given the new system.

BoyWonder1914

Jaedenkaal said:

BoyWonder1914 said:

Why should I be convinced that pull after pull from a vault of people I mostly have fully covered, just hoping for the occasional bonus of someone vaulted, is BETTER than just pulling from a vault that has these people, GUARANTEEING I'll get at least 1 on every pull? Please, stop trying to sing us the praises of the broken system. 

There was never such a token, unless you mean "people I either have championed, or have rostered but don't have nearly fully covered so if I did draw a cover for them I could still use it". Also you'd get at most one on every pull, not at least. Unless you're talking about an imaginary new token that contains only old characters, which is not what this thread is about.

As far as I can tell, the current token is people you mostly have fully covered. 10/12 I think you said. You don't want them specifically, apparently, which is up to you.

If your CP income is really that high, and if you care so little you could also buy key covers for vaulted characters if they're close to being championed. Obviously that won't improve your ability to level up a championed character (an generally acknowledged flaw/hidden intent of the current system) but it's fast, which seems important to you.

No one is arguing that you should abandon your roster plans. However, given that your roster -strategy- was built making assumptions that were true in the old system and were not true in the new system, you will definitely need to adapt your strategy to best meet your plans, given the new system.

There was such a token, it was called THE OLD SYSTEM. And semantics? Really? Like "at most" and "at least"one in any way justifies the horrible odds you have at getting someone who's vaulted now from pulls. You think I don't know I can buy covers? The whole point of pulling tokens and CP is so that I don't have to. And also, "no one is arguing that you should abandon your roster plans", and "you will definitely need to adapt your strategy" are rather contradictory statements. 

Fightmastermpq

Wasn't the strategy that drove your previous roster plans based largely on the old system of cover acquisition?  That system has changed, shouldn't your strategy for roster progress now be re-evaluated and re-optimized???

What exactly were your roster plans that were destroyed by vaulting?  Why?  What drove them? What made that a good strategy? What did you hope to achieve from those plans over the next few seasons? Over the next year? 

n25philly

If you can manage T100 release, alliance release cover, and the progression reward (i.e. 3 covers for each new character launch) then by pulling one 4* from tokens every 2 days you can get a new character covered in about 8 months. For the sake of comparison at 0.5 4* covers/day and a new 4* every 3 weeks under the old system it would take you about 2.5 years to cover a 4*.  So how many 4* covers are you pulling from tokens every day? Do you know? Have you tracked it? Can you with certainty say that you can't earn a 4* every other day?  And do you honestly believe that at no point over the next 1.7 years you will progress to a point where you are earning 4*s at better than 1 every other day?  If you haven't thought these things through then you haven't been acting rationally.

and for the billionth time, what if you can't do all these things.  Never gotten top 100.  I don't even know what you are taking about with alliance release cover.  No, I don't get three covers from progression, I've never gotten 1 4* cover from progression.

I haven't pulled a single token since the change.  Again, because what is the point?  If I can't roster what I a am pulling it will be a pittance of iso.  Not everyone can afford to waste pulls.  Then again if it's not what you do it must not happen, right?

Rodolfo78

I'll contribute $50 towards travel expense so these guys can meet somewhere and settle this once and for all via ticklefight. Anyone else in? 

mohio

n25philly said:

If you can manage T100 release, alliance release cover, and the progression reward (i.e. 3 covers for each new character launch) then by pulling one 4* from tokens every 2 days you can get a new character covered in about 8 months. For the sake of comparison at 0.5 4* covers/day and a new 4* every 3 weeks under the old system it would take you about 2.5 years to cover a 4*.  So how many 4* covers are you pulling from tokens every day? Do you know? Have you tracked it? Can you with certainty say that you can't earn a 4* every other day?  And do you honestly believe that at no point over the next 1.7 years you will progress to a point where you are earning 4*s at better than 1 every other day?  If you haven't thought these things through then you haven't been acting rationally.

and for the billionth time, what if you can't do all these things.  Never gotten top 100.  I don't even know what you are taking about with alliance release cover.  No, I don't get three covers from progression, I've never gotten 1 4* cover from progression.

I haven't pulled a single token since the change.  Again, because what is the point?  If I can't roster what I a am pulling it will be a pittance of iso.  Not everyone can afford to waste pulls.  Then again if it's not what you do it must not happen, right?

If you don't get any 4* covers through "normal" game play (i.e. progression or placement rewards), why are you commenting on this thread about the vaulting of 4*? This change can only be positive for you as there sure as hell was no way you were going to cover a 4* through the old system with how few covers you win and how few cp/LT you earn. At least with vaulting you have a way of getting there by hoarding enough pulls so you might reasonably expect to fully cover someone eventually. But it sounds like you don't really care about competing for top rewards, why do you care about collecting 4*? 

To your second point - seriously, what was the point in opening tokens before? You certainly weren't getting anywhere close to covering anything before vaulting, why did you pull tokens then? some tiny chance you could add to your 1/1/1 XFW that you got from daily resupply? 

n25philly

mohio said:

n25philly said:

If you can manage T100 release, alliance release cover, and the progression reward (i.e. 3 covers for each new character launch) then by pulling one 4* from tokens every 2 days you can get a new character covered in about 8 months. For the sake of comparison at 0.5 4* covers/day and a new 4* every 3 weeks under the old system it would take you about 2.5 years to cover a 4*.  So how many 4* covers are you pulling from tokens every day? Do you know? Have you tracked it? Can you with certainty say that you can't earn a 4* every other day?  And do you honestly believe that at no point over the next 1.7 years you will progress to a point where you are earning 4*s at better than 1 every other day?  If you haven't thought these things through then you haven't been acting rationally.

and for the billionth time, what if you can't do all these things.  Never gotten top 100.  I don't even know what you are taking about with alliance release cover.  No, I don't get three covers from progression, I've never gotten 1 4* cover from progression.

I haven't pulled a single token since the change.  Again, because what is the point?  If I can't roster what I a am pulling it will be a pittance of iso.  Not everyone can afford to waste pulls.  Then again if it's not what you do it must not happen, right?

If you don't get any 4* covers through "normal" game play (i.e. progression or placement rewards), why are you commenting on this thread about the vaulting of 4*? This change can only be positive for you as there sure as tinykitty was no way you were going to cover a 4* through the old system with how few covers you win and how few cp/LT you earn. At least with vaulting you have a way of getting there by hoarding enough pulls so you might reasonably expect to fully cover someone eventually. But it sounds like you don't really care about competing for top rewards, why do you care about collecting 4*? 

To your second point - seriously, what was the point in opening tokens before? You certainly weren't getting anywhere close to covering anything before vaulting, why did you pull tokens then? some tiny chance you could add to your 1/1/1 XFW that you got from daily resupply? 

Stated about a billion times before, but why not one more time.  This hit right as I was finishing up the 3* tier.  So up until now that was my focus.  I'd horde cp/LT until I had enough for an extra roster spot and pull until I had someone new to put in there.  It worked because I always new I could continue to cover them later.

Now the change comes, I am finished up with the 3* tier except for Hawkeye and SL since they just came out and ready to focus on starting the 4*'s.  Now it's about an 80% chance of pulling someone I don't have a roster spot for (not including odds of pulling a 5*) so any pulls are most likely pure waste.  When your covers come from tokens and champ rewards that makes things worse, not better.  I know, I must be a horrible person because I don't treat the game like a second job, so I guess that means I am not allowed to more forward, even slowly?

That's the problem, it doesn't make sense to pull until I have the hp/iso to virtually roster/level everyone in the 12 and that is going to take a very, very long time.

Starfury

mohio said:

n25Philly - did you ever post what alliance you're in so we can look at your roster? I'm super curious what it looks like. The reason I say this is the following, I'll be more generic so it's not just about you...

The people most screwed by the change in my eyes are those who have MANY old 4* at 11-12 covers. I'm talking like 5+. As this thread is asking about math - we're going to look at the math behind why! Under the old system you would average getting those last 1 or 2 covers over 55-110 pulls. But the kicker is you'd be finishing all 5+ that were only 1 or 2 covers away (obviously this is a back of the envelope average and doesn't account for terrible RNG, dupe covers you can't use, etc.). Under the new system, it's fixed at around 1 every 23 pulls. So 5 chars 1 cover away will take longer (115 instead of 55), but if it's just 2 characters and you need 2 covers each? That will take 46 pulls per character (92 total) instead of 110.

I don't worry about my 11 cover vaulted 4*, BH, other sources or 120cp will eventually take care of them, if I want to champ them.

Actually, the ones most screwed are the ones who have got most 4* rostered, but mostly halfway covered. With vaulting, they've no longer got a realistic path to covering most of those vaulted characters, yet they've already invested a significant amount of their resources into them.

People who have (almost) no covers in vaulted 4* won't ever get most of them to a usable level, but at least they have sunk less resources into those characters. For them, the 4* game has simply become smaller.

Also, people who have the vaulted 4* champed will experience a few months of fewer champ rewards before the latest 12 have caught up to the older, more advanced champs. Ultimately, they'll just be stuck with the vaulted champs, mostly stuck in permanent limbo.

Fightmastermpq

Starfury said:

mohio said:

n25Philly - did you ever post what alliance you're in so we can look at your roster? I'm super curious what it looks like. The reason I say this is the following, I'll be more generic so it's not just about you...

The people most screwed by the change in my eyes are those who have MANY old 4* at 11-12 covers. I'm talking like 5+. As this thread is asking about math - we're going to look at the math behind why! Under the old system you would average getting those last 1 or 2 covers over 55-110 pulls. But the kicker is you'd be finishing all 5+ that were only 1 or 2 covers away (obviously this is a back of the envelope average and doesn't account for terrible RNG, dupe covers you can't use, etc.). Under the new system, it's fixed at around 1 every 23 pulls. So 5 chars 1 cover away will take longer (115 instead of 55), but if it's just 2 characters and you need 2 covers each? That will take 46 pulls per character (92 total) instead of 110.

I don't worry about my 11 cover vaulted 4*, BH, other sources or 120cp will eventually take care of them, if I want to champ them.

Actually, the ones most screwed are the ones who have got most 4* rostered, but mostly halfway covered. With vaulting, they've no longer got a realistic path to covering most of those vaulted characters, yet they've already invested a significant amount of their resources into them.

People who have (almost) no covers in vaulted 4* won't ever get most of them to a usable level, but at least they have sunk less resources into those characters. For them, the 4* game has simply become smaller.

Also, people who have the vaulted 4* champed will experience a few months of fewer champ rewards before the latest 12 have caught up to the older, more advanced champs. Ultimately, they'll just be stuck with the vaulted champs, mostly stuck in permanent limbo.

I disagree.  The ISO requirements to max level a 6-8 cover 4* are actually quite low compared to those last 20-30 levels that are unlocked with the last few covers.  Under the old system it was still going to take quite some time to get those 6-8 cover characters to a usable level.  With vaulting you will get a brand new character to 13 covers twice as fast as it would have taken to get the last 7 covers of an older character under the old system.  

People are upset because it forces them to abandon their roster plans.  They thought they needed that 6 cover 4* champed to be successful, and they either don't realize it was going to take them twice as long to get there, or don't believe they can be successful with the newest 4*s, and so they rage.

Starfury

You're conveniently ignoring the 100-200 4* covers for those now mostly useless characters.

For someone still in the process of covering their first 4*, that represents most 4* pulls they ever had.

mohio

Starfury said:

You're conveniently ignoring the 100-200 4* covers for those now mostly useless characters.

For someone still in the process of covering their first 4*, that represents most 4* pulls they ever had.

I don't think he's ignoring them at all - he's simply saying outside of maybe one or two you really want and should set as your bonus, you should cut your losses and focus on the newest 12 (or if your collecting is slow, maybe only the newest 2 or 3). It really is unfortunate all of that "progress" is getting wasted, however you still have the characters for essentials in PvE and Behemoth Burrito, and presumably a few that could even win their crash node when it comes up. People are far too sentimental about what they already have and throwing pity parties for themselves and not seeing that what we've been saying this whole time is that you will be better off in the long run because you will more easily cover the newest characters than you would have covered the older ones you already have covers for. 

Save all your tokens for one or two months (cp/lt/heroic), do your best to hit 575 in every pvp, if you're not hitting progression in PvE at least play enough to collect some decent iso and 10 cp from progression. Then right after a new season starts and the tokens change over (hopefully after you went hard in a release PvE and collected a couple covers for a new char) open everything and see what you end up with. I bet you'll be surprised at how many additional covers for new characters you get and how much further along you already are in comparison to those older characters.

Fightmastermpq

Mohio is exactly right.  There is nothing useless about a 6-8 cover 4* as they can still be used in essentials, and DDQ.  I'm not sure what level a 6-8 cover 4* tops out at, but if you are making that 25-30k ISO/day that we keep talking about you can take a 4* from 70 to 160 or so in just 2 days.  So it's not like it's some massive sunk cost.

I keep hearing people use the phrase "start all over" with the new characters, and while it's true that you might go from 6-8 covers of a vaulted character to 0 covers from a new one, you are NOT starting the same process over.  The process is different now, and as I pointed out above - significantly faster than the old process.

So yeah, maybe it took you 2 years to get that vaulted 4* halfway covered, but this change doesn't mean it's going to take you 2 more years to get a new 4* to that point.  In fact, you'll likely get 2 new 4*s fully covered before you would have finished off even that one older 4* under the old system!

Straycat

n25philly said:

Stated about a billion times before, but why not one more time.  This hit right as I was finishing up the 3* tier.  So up until now that was my focus.  I'd horde cp/LT until I had enough for an extra roster spot and pull until I had someone new to put in there.  It worked because I always new I could continue to cover them later.

Now the change comes, I am finished up with the 3* tier except for Hawkeye and SL since they just came out and ready to focus on starting the 4*'s.  Now it's about an 80% chance of pulling someone I don't have a roster spot for (not including odds of pulling a 5*) so any pulls are most likely pure waste.  When your covers come from tokens and champ rewards that makes things worse, not better.  I know, I must be a horrible person because I don't treat the game like a second job, so I guess that means I am not allowed to more forward, even slowly?

That's the problem, it doesn't make sense to pull until I have the hp/iso to virtually roster/level everyone in the 12 and that is going to take a very, very long time.

Its been almost 2 months since vaulting and bonus heroes were introduced.
In that time you haven't opened a token or spent cp? How much have you accumulated? I think your previous strategy is still a viable option, open until you need to save hp, hoard until you can open a roster slot, then keep opening tokens. There is a time table for characters now, but I think you are underestimating how much progress you can make in the 6-8 months or however long they last. It is a decent amount of time, considering that MPQ is only 3.5 years old.

I ask since a 3-4 transitioner is theoretically in a better spot to progress into the 4* tier. Not your preferred 4*s maybe, and at the expense of progress in the vaulted characters, but still at a much better rate than before. The "math" treats 4* champs almost as equals.