Has anyone done the math?

Jaedenkaal

BoyWonder1914 said:

For God's sake, no one is arguing the value of Bonus Heroes. A 5% chance to specifically get someone you want is fantastic. 

...

 I don't give a damn if I'm still champing 4s at the exact same rate. All people want here, is access to the covers that THEY want, not who the game forces you to pull with vaulting, not who everyone recommends is the bees knees. Vaulting cuts you off from a pool that contains what you want, even if that pool was diluted, it's better than NOTHING. Sure you can make someone a bonus hero, but what happens after you've got most people in the limited 12-vault fully covered? 

How the heck are you expecting to get 156 4* covers in so short a time, and yet not also get enough ISO to champ any of them?

I estimate that I get one 4* cover per day on average, so it would take me 6 months or achieve this, by which time roughly 8 new 4*s would have been released, which would have added an additional 104 covers that I would need to gain before having them all fully covered, which would take me another 3 months, by which time, and etc...

You're also avoiding the non-zero chance to get a vaulted character from sources other than tokens. In the last 45 days I have acquired, merely by logging in, playing DDQ, and getting the 4* progression from PVE:

1x Ghost rider
1x Carnage
1x Miles Morales
1x Red Hulk
1x hulkbuster
1x Iceman
1x Mr Fantastic

From login rewards, champion rewards, PVE progression rewards, and vault tokens (DDQ, etc). Which is roughly the distribution (of those characters) that I would have expected to see  to vaulting; ie, 0-1 of each.

Pants1000

I'm aware anecdotal evidence isn't worth much, but in the last week I've got a decent number of vaulted 4's.

Eddie Brock (Daily reward)
Jean Grey (PS Vault)
Thor (PS Vault)
Falcap (3* Falcon champ reward)
Peggy (Bonus hero from LT)

I'm also expecting 3 Novas from the upcoming boss event, maybe 2-3 Ant-man from placement in PS, and XFW and 4clops from 3* champs.

Yes I got lucky with vault pulls, and I have a lot of 3's around 220 so I'm getting 4's from them frequently now.  Every week won't be like this, but vaulted 4's come from plenty of places other than BH.

Hadronic

Someone needs to just make a simulation of both systems and post the results. I'd do it myself but I'm on holiday and didn't bring my laptop.

DaveR4470

Vhailorx said:

But I still haven't fully covered war machine or ws or moonknight, characters for whom I only earned 1 cover in the release PVE and 1 in the release PVP. 

You and me both, amigo.  I've gotten approximately 462 Gwenpool covers since I got my last War Machine cover, which I think was during the Reagan administration....   (I have had a little bit of a good run with Moon Knight -- "good run" meaning I think I've picked up three covers in the past two months.)

Side note, but related:  I really wish I could put money on stuff like this:  I got my second Wasp cover from the current PvE today, and got over the 20CP mark to grab another classic legendary.  I'll give you three guesses what character I pulled from the legendary.....  (Thankfully it was usable.)  I just knew that was going to happen.  Just knew it.

Fightmastermpq

n25philly said:

Actually again your points are flat out wrong.  Under the old system I only had to save up HP.  I could roster new characters when I could and each time I would pull until I got someone new.  Sometimes I'd pull a dozen covers sometimes 1.  Kind of the fun of it, you never know what you get.  Now, even getting the HP to roster everyone is enough I need the HP and the ISO for it to make any sense.  Very, very different.  Instead of hording until I get to 1000 hp I would have to horde until I get 12000 and all the iso to level them or it's a waste to pull.  Can't you see how big of a difference that is?  It will actually be more than that though with more 3*'s coming.

Huh? By that logic you've been saving up 47,000 HP before pulling anything so that you could roster all the 4s before you begin pulling. Your pull strategy DOES NOT CHANGE. You save until you have 1k HP and then you pull until you get a character that you don't have rostered, roster the new character, and stop. That's it.

n25philly said:

Except you are on a personal crusade for everyone to be wrong no matter what.  Don't you see the difference between you and me.  You are saying it must be vaulting or else.  All I want is some options so I don't spend the next year or two in purgatory if I don't end up quitting.  It doesn't have to be one way or another, and I am not saying we must go back to the old way as it definitely has it's problems.  But a poorly thought out system that clearly hurts a decent portion of the player base should be changes.  Quite honestly if you aren't one of the devs or just someone that enjoys those of us hurt by the system's misery, I am kind of scared to think what you are as I can't think of any way your pigheadedness on this makes sense as you seem to be 100% against anything but the current broken system no matter what.  Guess what it doesn't benefit everyone, fact.

It's honestly not about right or wrong, I don't care. I'm really trying to help you and everyone else that can't seem to grasp the benefits of vaulting understand how they can alter their roster strategy to maximize their progress. If you want to say that vaulting is bad because it reduces the flow of 310-370 higher value champ rewards, or because you had a roster full of 9-11 cover vaulted 4*s and now it's going to take you a lot longer to be competitive, or because you don't even really care about being good but you love X-Men characters and now it's way harder to get them then those are all valid complaints. But when you say things like "now I need 12,000 HP before I can open another token" you are overreacting and letting emotion dictate your actions rather than reason, and when people say stuff like that others read it and start to think vaulting is something that it's not. And I am most certainly not saying it must be vaulting or else - but that IS the topic of this thread, and so I'm trying to limit the discussion to the pros and cons of vaulting+BH vs. the old system. Obviously they could add 4 or 40 more LTs with various combinations of available characters that would be better for all the players, but that's not the topic of discussion here.

n25philly

Fightmastermpq said:

n25philly said:

Actually again your points are flat out wrong.  Under the old system I only had to save up HP.  I could roster new characters when I could and each time I would pull until I got someone new.  Sometimes I'd pull a dozen covers sometimes 1.  Kind of the fun of it, you never know what you get.  Now, even getting the HP to roster everyone is enough I need the HP and the ISO for it to make any sense.  Very, very different.  Instead of hording until I get to 1000 hp I would have to horde until I get 12000 and all the iso to level them or it's a waste to pull.  Can't you see how big of a difference that is?  It will actually be more than that though with more 3*'s coming.

Huh? By that logic you've been saving up 47,000 HP before pulling anything so that you could roster all the 4s before you begin pulling. Your pull strategy DOES NOT CHANGE. You save until you have 1k HP and then you pull until you get a character that you don't have rostered, roster the new character, and stop. That's it.

n25philly said:

Except you are on a personal crusade for everyone to be wrong no matter what.  Don't you see the difference between you and me.  You are saying it must be vaulting or else.  All I want is some options so I don't spend the next year or two in purgatory if I don't end up quitting.  It doesn't have to be one way or another, and I am not saying we must go back to the old way as it definitely has it's problems.  But a poorly thought out system that clearly hurts a decent portion of the player base should be changes.  Quite honestly if you aren't one of the devs or just someone that enjoys those of us hurt by the system's misery, I am kind of scared to think what you are as I can't think of any way your pigheadedness on this makes sense as you seem to be 100% against anything but the current broken system no matter what.  Guess what it doesn't benefit everyone, fact.

It's honestly not about right or wrong, I don't care. I'm really trying to help you and everyone else that can't seem to grasp the benefits of vaulting understand how they can alter their roster strategy to maximize their progress. If you want to say that vaulting is bad because it reduces the flow of 310-370 higher value champ rewards, or because you had a roster full of 9-11 cover vaulted 4*s and now it's going to take you a lot longer to be competitive, or because you don't even really care about being good but you love X-Men characters and now it's way harder to get them then those are all valid complaints. But when you say things like "now I need 12,000 HP before I can open another token" you are overreacting and letting emotion dictate your actions rather than reason, and when people say stuff like that others read it and start to think vaulting is something that it's not. And I am most certainly not saying it must be vaulting or else - but that IS the topic of this thread, and so I'm trying to limit the discussion to the pros and cons of vaulting+BH vs. the old system. Obviously they could add 4 or 40 more LTs with various combinations of available characters that would be better for all the players, but that's not the topic of discussion here.

I love hearing your arguements because they make less and less sense every time.  You're getting like an angry comedy routine.

47,000 hp before I pull?  Huh?  No, old system I needed 1000 before I pulled.  I never had to worry about what I pulled because I could always pull more for the character later.  There was no downside to going slow.

If I go slow in the new system I am just wasting.  Lets say I have an extra 1000 hp now, go and pull tokens and pull one of the characters close to moving into the vault.  That pull was a waste because they will be gone before I full cover them let alone champ them.  Once they are in the vault they are virtually gone.

I know already what you are going to say, pull until you get someone like iron fist that was just added so I have more time.  Still won't pull fast enough going the slow route and full cover/level him and I'll just end up throwing away cp in the process.  More waste.

The only way to more forward without tons of waste is to horde and put together a lot of HP/ISO to be able to virtually cover rostering/leveling the 12 or they will just go to waste if I pull them.  It's not overreacting, it is what it is.  You seem to think that everyone has the resources you do.

It's a very flawed system.  I'm not saying it has to go back to the way it was, but there needs to be an option for the people that need it.  Then again you will never agree because you can't admit that this is all about what's best for you, not what's best for anyone else or the game.

Fightmastermpq

n25philly said:

Fightmastermpq said:

n25philly said:

Actually again your points are flat out wrong.  Under the old system I only had to save up HP.  I could roster new characters when I could and each time I would pull until I got someone new.  Sometimes I'd pull a dozen covers sometimes 1.  Kind of the fun of it, you never know what you get.  Now, even getting the HP to roster everyone is enough I need the HP and the ISO for it to make any sense.  Very, very different.  Instead of hording until I get to 1000 hp I would have to horde until I get 12000 and all the iso to level them or it's a waste to pull.  Can't you see how big of a difference that is?  It will actually be more than that though with more 3*'s coming.

Huh? By that logic you've been saving up 47,000 HP before pulling anything so that you could roster all the 4s before you begin pulling. Your pull strategy DOES NOT CHANGE. You save until you have 1k HP and then you pull until you get a character that you don't have rostered, roster the new character, and stop. That's it.

n25philly said:

Except you are on a personal crusade for everyone to be wrong no matter what.  Don't you see the difference between you and me.  You are saying it must be vaulting or else.  All I want is some options so I don't spend the next year or two in purgatory if I don't end up quitting.  It doesn't have to be one way or another, and I am not saying we must go back to the old way as it definitely has it's problems.  But a poorly thought out system that clearly hurts a decent portion of the player base should be changes.  Quite honestly if you aren't one of the devs or just someone that enjoys those of us hurt by the system's misery, I am kind of scared to think what you are as I can't think of any way your pigheadedness on this makes sense as you seem to be 100% against anything but the current broken system no matter what.  Guess what it doesn't benefit everyone, fact.

It's honestly not about right or wrong, I don't care. I'm really trying to help you and everyone else that can't seem to grasp the benefits of vaulting understand how they can alter their roster strategy to maximize their progress. If you want to say that vaulting is bad because it reduces the flow of 310-370 higher value champ rewards, or because you had a roster full of 9-11 cover vaulted 4*s and now it's going to take you a lot longer to be competitive, or because you don't even really care about being good but you love X-Men characters and now it's way harder to get them then those are all valid complaints. But when you say things like "now I need 12,000 HP before I can open another token" you are overreacting and letting emotion dictate your actions rather than reason, and when people say stuff like that others read it and start to think vaulting is something that it's not. And I am most certainly not saying it must be vaulting or else - but that IS the topic of this thread, and so I'm trying to limit the discussion to the pros and cons of vaulting+BH vs. the old system. Obviously they could add 4 or 40 more LTs with various combinations of available characters that would be better for all the players, but that's not the topic of discussion here.

I love hearing your arguements because they make less and less sense every time.  You're getting like an angry comedy routine.

47,000 hp before I pull?  Huh?  No, old system I needed 1000 before I pulled.  I never had to worry about what I pulled because I could always pull more for the character later.  There was no downside to going slow.

If I go slow in the new system I am just wasting.  Lets say I have an extra 1000 hp now, go and pull tokens and pull one of the characters close to moving into the vault.  That pull was a waste because they will be gone before I full cover them let alone champ them.  Once they are in the vault they are virtually gone.

I know already what you are going to say, pull until you get someone like iron fist that was just added so I have more time.  Still won't pull fast enough going the slow route and full cover/level him and I'll just end up throwing away cp in the process.  More waste.

The only way to more forward without tons of waste is to horde and put together a lot of HP/ISO to be able to virtually cover rostering/leveling the 12 or they will just go to waste if I pull them.  It's not overreacting, it is what it is.  You seem to think that everyone has the resources you do.

It's a very flawed system.  I'm not saying it has to go back to the way it was, but there needs to be an option for the people that need it.  Then again you will never agree because you can't admit that this is all about what's best for you, not what's best for anyone else or the game.

I love hearing your responses because they are all based on a single assumption that comes from....you guessed it....bad math.  Here it is again right here:

n25philly said:

they will be gone before I full cover them let alone champ them

If you can manage T100 release, alliance release cover, and the progression reward (i.e. 3 covers for each new character launch) then by pulling one 4* from tokens every 2 days you can get a new character covered in about 8 months. For the sake of comparison at 0.5 4* covers/day and a new 4* every 3 weeks under the old system it would take you about 2.5 years to cover a 4*.  So how many 4* covers are you pulling from tokens every day? Do you know? Have you tracked it? Can you with certainty say that you can't earn a 4* every other day?  And do you honestly believe that at no point over the next 1.7 years you will progress to a point where you are earning 4*s at better than 1 every other day?  If you haven't thought these things through then you haven't been acting rationally.

Ayasugi-san

Vhailorx said:

(3) the 3* middle class.  These players have all the old 4*s rostered, but were having a really hard time building a core group of 4* champs pre-vault because of dilution.  And to make things worse, having a handful of good 4*s covered and leveled isn't nearly as valuable as it used to be because 4* boosting is so strong.  It's getting harder and harder to hit 900 without 2x boosted 4* champs.  From this perspective, vaulting is great because it will allow these early transitioners much easier access to current 12 4*s, which means they can get into 4* champ play noticeably faster than before.  pro-vaulting

That's me, and still anti-vaulting. Getting into 4* champ play faster isn't that great when ISO is still scarce enough that you can only champ a 4* every 2-3 weeks, and once you have a 4* champ, you start seeing champed boosted 4* teams in PVP nodes much sooner in the climb. Plus you have to use that champ for most of your battles, and given the reason for nerfing OML was overusage you start to wonder if the 4* that's carrying your team will be next to be nerfed and make the game even harder than it was before you champed them...

MarkersMake

Ayasugi-san said:

Vhailorx said:

(3) the 3* middle class.  These players have all the old 4*s rostered, but were having a really hard time building a core group of 4* champs pre-vault because of dilution.  And to make things worse, having a handful of good 4*s covered and leveled isn't nearly as valuable as it used to be because 4* boosting is so strong.  It's getting harder and harder to hit 900 without 2x boosted 4* champs.  From this perspective, vaulting is great because it will allow these early transitioners much easier access to current 12 4*s, which means they can get into 4* champ play noticeably faster than before.  pro-vaulting

That's me, and still anti-vaulting. Getting into 4* champ play faster isn't that great when ISO is still scarce enough that you can only champ a 4* every 2-3 weeks, and once you have a 4* champ, you start seeing champed boosted 4* teams in PVP nodes much sooner in the climb. Plus you have to use that champ for most of your battles, and given the reason for nerfing OML was overusage you start to wonder if the 4* that's carrying your team will be next to be nerfed and make the game even harder than it was before you champed them...

Hmmm, 

I'm in pretty much the same situation and I have no regrets about champing my 4*s. I definitely see more champed 4*s earlier, but I also score higher (700-850 instead of 600-750). Now, my first champ was Peggy, so that's not a typical 4*, but I'm also enjoying the rest of my "killer Cs" (Coulson, Carter, Cage, and now Carol). 

I wouldn't have been able to do this without vaulting, and although I may never get Rulk or Iceman, I might just not need them anymore. 

GurlBYE

This thread is a shining example of why the forums aren't very good.

Not the negativity. 
The circular discussions that are nothing more then "well my roster is here"
"well my roster is here"

If your arguments consistently and constantly only refute the other person based on "well for me its..." in a game based in rng, what exactly are you even in discussion about? How things played out for you?
Typing 'bad math' over and over again on the side of anecdotes, is also pretty oxymoronic, especially when that math is selective and is used not to provide data from a specific angle in an attempt to ignore others opinions, views.


Thread summed up: newsflash, The change effected everyone differently based on where their rosters are/were, and no amount of you hitting the keyboard will suddenly change how that affected someone who isn't yourself. 
You telling someone that X is better for them won't suddenly make their game goals shift to what you expect.

MarkersMake

GurlBYE said:

If your arguments consistently and constantly only refute the other person based on "well for me its..." in a game based in rng, what exactly are you even in discussion about? How things played out for you?

... 

Thread summed up: newsflash, The change effected everyone differently based on where their rosters are/were, and no amount of you hitting the keyboard will suddenly change how that affected someone who isn't yourself. 
You telling someone that X is better for them won't suddenly make their game goals shift to what you expect.

Except that's the whole point. Vaulting accelerates the rate at which you can build a usable (champed) 4* character. And bonus heroes works with it to help target the ones you want. 

It's not a coincidence that I champed the 4 I mentioned first. I got 5 Peggy and 3 Carol covers from Bonus Heroes. 

It's different because now you can have some control, rather than being  purely at the mercy of the RNG. Whether you like the options available to you is, obviously, a different question. 

Polares

I keep seeing people that relates Bonus Heroes with Vaulting, and justify that Vaulting is better because of Bonus Heroes. Please STOP DOING THAT!

Nobody has said that those things should go together and that they are bonded for eternity, they were released together, but that's it. Tomorrow Devs can remove Vaulting completely, and leave Bonus Heroes as is right now, as a good way of completing dilution. They are two different features!

Vaulting is BAD for everybody except super whales. Bonus heroes is good for everybody. Do you see the difference?

broll

Fight I can't tell you if you are just so out of touch with what a lower player's experience is like that you can't see it or if you are intentionally trying to trick people into thinking this is a better system for them than it is because it gives you a competitive advantage.  I'd believe either at this point...  I've said my peace and I'm surely not going to change your mind or stop you from spouting nonsense so I'm gonna find better ways to spend my time.

Fightmastermpq

Polares said:

I keep seeing people that relates Bonus Heroes with Vaulting, and justify that Vaulting is better because of Bonus Heroes. Please STOP DOING THAT!

Nobody has said that those things should go together and that they are bonded for eternity, they were released together, but that's it. Tomorrow Devs can remove Vaulting completely, and leave Bonus Heroes as is right now, as a good way of completing dilution. They are two different features!

Vaulting is BAD for everybody except super whales. Bonus heroes is good for everybody. Do you see the difference?

No, no, and no.

The reality is that vaulting and BH exist together currently as a system for progression, and we are comparing this new system to our old system.  Anything else adds no value.  People were married to their roster plans under the old system, and I'm here trying to help people understand that those roster plans are now garbage because of this new system, and detail how this new system can be utilized to actually provide more/better/faster progression than the old system if people are simply able to forget about their old plans.

Also, BH alone is a terrible solution to dilution - 5% is way too low to counter dilution in a meaningful way long term.  I think 5% across 3 characters for 15% total would make more sense, but long term it still falls short, and increasing beyond that starts to upset the balance of in-game resources which would be bad for both the playerbase as well as D3's bottom line.

Finally no, vaulting is not bad for everyone except super whales and saying it in all caps doesn't make it so.  I've outlined several benefits to vaulting in this thread that you are welcome to debate.

Fightmastermpq

broll said:

Fight I can't tell you if you are just so out of touch with what a lower player's experience is like that you can't see it or if you are intentionally trying to trick people into thinking this is a better system for them than it is because it gives you a competitive advantage.  I'd believe either at this point...  I've said my peace and I'm surely not going to change your mind or stop you from spouting nonsense so I'm gonna find better ways to spend my time.

What nonsense am I spouting????? Prove me wrong. What IS your experience like? Help me help you. I can see your roster, you've got 12 champed 4s, 5 of them from the newest 12. So you must be earning ISO at pretty good clip - are you getting 25k+/day? With that group of 4s you could easily T10 PvE, and are certainly hitting progression in PvE and could be in PvP more often than not too. I see you have XFDP and JG both at 11/13, BH could finish those two up for you a little faster than under the old system - same with Quake, and you seem to be progressing on the other newest characters as well. I see you have 3 covers for Cloak & Dagger, was that T100, alliance, and progression from the next event? Isn't that exactly what I claimed "lower players" should be able to earn thus only needing 10 pulls for each new character from tokens? Where exactly am I out of touch?????

Also, no offense but I gain no meaningful competitive advantage by trying to hold "lower players" back.  What would help me more than anything these days would be more people competing in CL8 so that they will open up CL9 for me and not have it overcrowded with other 5* players.  A broad playerbase that continues to grow helps me, and that's why I take time to help out where I can.

Vhailorx

5% is too low to counter dilution, but it's an awesome way to build 10 or 20 vintage 4*s?  C'mon fight, you can make a more coherent argument than that.

BH and vaulting aren't linked except by demi.  If you want to compare new system versus old then i think the new system is slughtly worse (helps something, hurts others).

But what i want is a better new system.

Fightmastermpq

Vhailorx said:

5% is too low to counter dilution, but it's an awesome way to build 10 or 20 vintage 4*s?  C'mon fight, you can make a more coherent argument than that.

BH and vaulting aren't linked except by demi.  If you want to compare new system versus old then i think the new system is slughtly worse (helps something, hurts others).

But what i want is a better new system.

Come on man, try harder.  Try to read my points and comprehend them without taking things out of context.  You can do it, I know you can.

I never said BH was an "awesome way" to build 10 or 20 vaulted 4*s.  What I said was that WITH VAULTING BH can cover those good vaulted 4*s within the time frame that it would take a new player to reach the point where they have caught up to the 4* release schedule.  Please stop thinking of the game as being stagnant, it isn't.  We get a new 4* every 2 weeks (really every 3 weeks due to 5*s mixing in with the release schedule).  So when you talk about how long it takes to do things you have to include the grind to keep up, and that grind exists both with and without vaulting.

mohio

n25Philly - did you ever post what alliance you're in so we can look at your roster? I'm super curious what it looks like. The reason I say this is the following, I'll be more generic so it's not just about you...

The people most screwed by the change in my eyes are those who have MANY old 4* at 11-12 covers. I'm talking like 5+. As this thread is asking about math - we're going to look at the math behind why! Under the old system you would average getting those last 1 or 2 covers over 55-110 pulls. But the kicker is you'd be finishing all 5+ that were only 1 or 2 covers away (obviously this is a back of the envelope average and doesn't account for terrible RNG, dupe covers you can't use, etc.). Under the new system, it's fixed at around 1 every 23 pulls. So 5 chars 1 cover away will take longer (115 instead of 55), but if it's just 2 characters and you need 2 covers each? That will take 46 pulls per character (92 total) instead of 110.

My point is - if you have lots of older character all with a substantial amount of covers (10+), then I can see you having legitimate beef with this, as you could be finishing them all slowly under the old system and under the new system you have to pick which ones you want most (even though you'd still be finishing the first one or two quicker with bonus heroes). But if your characters are all even more undercovered than that, your chances of finishing them off under the old system were so low anyway it's silly to be so upset. 

Vhailorx

Fightmastermpq said:

Come on man, try harder.  Try to read my points and comprehend them without taking things out of context.  You can do it, I know you can.

I never said BH was an "awesome way" to build 10 or 20 vaulted 4*s.  What I said was that WITH VAULTING BH can cover those good vaulted 4*s within the time frame that it would take a new player to reach the point where they have caught up to the 4* release schedule.  Please stop thinking of the game as being stagnant, it isn't.  We get a new 4* every 2 weeks (really every 3 weeks due to 5*s mixing in with the release schedule).  So when you talk about how long it takes to do things you have to include the grind to keep up, and that grind exists both with and without vaulting.

Here something you said yesterday:

consider a brand new player starting today with no 4*s, they could set their BH to the T10 or tinykitty T20 vaulted characters and just let them slowly get covered over time as they progress to the point where they are champing a 4* every 2 weeks or better and by then they can start to go back and champ the older 4s.  

[snip]

I must concede that yes, starting from 0 and trying to acquire ALL 47 characters in the 4* pool through tokens ALONE is obviously more difficult with BH only, but that just doesn't reflect reality.

You are correct that you don't say "awesome" in this quotation.  But I think you are pretty clearly implying that BH for a top 10 or 20 vintage 4*s is a good solution for new players in combination with vaulting.  You set a time horizon of "starting the game up to the point at which a player can champ a new 4* every 2 weeks."

Well, we can make some educated guesses about those assertions. 

(1) On a mobile platform, it is basically possible to champ a new 4* every 2 weeks by grinding 4/6 in every pve event and playing ddq. (that will give players something like 20k iso a day, which is actually a little more than is needed).  Doing this requires a player to have all 2*, 3* and 4* characters rostered so they never miss an essential node.  In the current system, I think it will take 8-12 months for a new player to do this without spending lots of cash (basically they need to rank up to 32 so they can access CL 7 4* prog rewards, and then use those rewards to fill in the gaps in their vintage bench.  They will likely get some 4*s from champ rewards and lucky vault pulls, but not there will definitely be gaps).

(2) Per your assertion, in 8-12 months, a new player can use BH to "slowly cover" the top 10 or top 20 vintage 4*s.  assuming they get at least 1 cover from other means, players need 12 more covers (assuming perfect distribution) to fully cover their favorited vintage 4*s.  So in the easier to reach top 10 scenario, that means 120 bonus covers, which in turn means 2,400 4* cover pulls.  I don't think many new players will get 2,400 4* cover pulls from heroic or legendary tokens during their first 8-12 months.  Do you?

You suggested that BH alone isn't enough to overcome dilution, but simultaneously suggested that BH + daily resupply/champ rewards/vault pulls/prog covers IS enough build up a bench of vintage 4*s that is now almost as large as the pre-vaulting "diluted" 4* pool.  It's an absurd suggestion fight. 

And fwiw, I think that 5* BH bolted on to the old system would actually be a pretty great system for players.  And Demi seems to agree with me since they balked at the idea and added in vaulting too (and further balked at the idea of putting vintage 4*s in classic LTs).

P.S.  The game isn't stagnant, but example scenarios are easier if we assume many pulls happening at the same time.  Once we start to account for the continued progress of the game over time, your argument actually gets a bit worse, since players need to keep grinding to preserve their LT efficiency.  Yes, chasing the release schedule is a feature present in both the new system and the old system.  But the new system imposes a much greater cost on players who "skip" a release and don't champ a current 12 4*.  In the old system, a single unchamped 4* was a relatively small 1.8% risk of wasted covers.  In the new system, each missing current 12 member is a 7% hit to LT efficiency that lasts for about 8 months. 

Jaedenkaal

Fightmastermpq said:

Polares said:

I keep seeing people that relates Bonus Heroes with Vaulting, and justify that Vaulting is better because of Bonus Heroes. Please STOP DOING THAT!

Nobody has said that those things should go together and that they are bonded for eternity, they were released together, but that's it. Tomorrow Devs can remove Vaulting completely, and leave Bonus Heroes as is right now, as a good way of completing dilution. They are two different features!

Vaulting is BAD for everybody except super whales. Bonus heroes is good for everybody. Do you see the difference?

No, no, and no.

The reality is that vaulting and BH exist together currently as a system for progression, and we are comparing this new system to our old system.  Anything else adds no value.  People were married to their roster plans under the old system, and I'm here trying to help people understand that those roster plans are now garbage because of this new system, and detail how this new system can be utilized to actually provide more/better/faster progression than the old system if people are simply able to forget about their old plans.

This. Obviously BH would have been great on its own. But that's not what we have, so that's not what the thread is about.