BoyWonder1914 said:For God's sake, no one is arguing the value of Bonus Heroes. A 5% chance to specifically get someone you want is fantastic. ... I don't give a damn if I'm still champing 4s at the exact same rate. All people want here, is access to the covers that THEY want, not who the game forces you to pull with vaulting, not who everyone recommends is the bees knees. Vaulting cuts you off from a pool that contains what you want, even if that pool was diluted, it's better than NOTHING. Sure you can make someone a bonus hero, but what happens after you've got most people in the limited 12-vault fully covered?
Vhailorx said:But I still haven't fully covered war machine or ws or moonknight, characters for whom I only earned 1 cover in the release PVE and 1 in the release PVP.
n25philly said: Actually again your points are flat out wrong. Under the old system I only had to save up HP. I could roster new characters when I could and each time I would pull until I got someone new. Sometimes I'd pull a dozen covers sometimes 1. Kind of the fun of it, you never know what you get. Now, even getting the HP to roster everyone is enough I need the HP and the ISO for it to make any sense. Very, very different. Instead of hording until I get to 1000 hp I would have to horde until I get 12000 and all the iso to level them or it's a waste to pull. Can't you see how big of a difference that is? It will actually be more than that though with more 3*'s coming.
n25philly said:Except you are on a personal crusade for everyone to be wrong no matter what. Don't you see the difference between you and me. You are saying it must be vaulting or else. All I want is some options so I don't spend the next year or two in purgatory if I don't end up quitting. It doesn't have to be one way or another, and I am not saying we must go back to the old way as it definitely has it's problems. But a poorly thought out system that clearly hurts a decent portion of the player base should be changes. Quite honestly if you aren't one of the devs or just someone that enjoys those of us hurt by the system's misery, I am kind of scared to think what you are as I can't think of any way your pigheadedness on this makes sense as you seem to be 100% against anything but the current broken system no matter what. Guess what it doesn't benefit everyone, fact.
Fightmastermpq said: n25philly said: Actually again your points are flat out wrong. Under the old system I only had to save up HP. I could roster new characters when I could and each time I would pull until I got someone new. Sometimes I'd pull a dozen covers sometimes 1. Kind of the fun of it, you never know what you get. Now, even getting the HP to roster everyone is enough I need the HP and the ISO for it to make any sense. Very, very different. Instead of hording until I get to 1000 hp I would have to horde until I get 12000 and all the iso to level them or it's a waste to pull. Can't you see how big of a difference that is? It will actually be more than that though with more 3*'s coming. Huh? By that logic you've been saving up 47,000 HP before pulling anything so that you could roster all the 4s before you begin pulling. Your pull strategy DOES NOT CHANGE. You save until you have 1k HP and then you pull until you get a character that you don't have rostered, roster the new character, and stop. That's it. n25philly said:Except you are on a personal crusade for everyone to be wrong no matter what. Don't you see the difference between you and me. You are saying it must be vaulting or else. All I want is some options so I don't spend the next year or two in purgatory if I don't end up quitting. It doesn't have to be one way or another, and I am not saying we must go back to the old way as it definitely has it's problems. But a poorly thought out system that clearly hurts a decent portion of the player base should be changes. Quite honestly if you aren't one of the devs or just someone that enjoys those of us hurt by the system's misery, I am kind of scared to think what you are as I can't think of any way your pigheadedness on this makes sense as you seem to be 100% against anything but the current broken system no matter what. Guess what it doesn't benefit everyone, fact. It's honestly not about right or wrong, I don't care. I'm really trying to help you and everyone else that can't seem to grasp the benefits of vaulting understand how they can alter their roster strategy to maximize their progress. If you want to say that vaulting is bad because it reduces the flow of 310-370 higher value champ rewards, or because you had a roster full of 9-11 cover vaulted 4*s and now it's going to take you a lot longer to be competitive, or because you don't even really care about being good but you love X-Men characters and now it's way harder to get them then those are all valid complaints. But when you say things like "now I need 12,000 HP before I can open another token" you are overreacting and letting emotion dictate your actions rather than reason, and when people say stuff like that others read it and start to think vaulting is something that it's not. And I am most certainly not saying it must be vaulting or else - but that IS the topic of this thread, and so I'm trying to limit the discussion to the pros and cons of vaulting+BH vs. the old system. Obviously they could add 4 or 40 more LTs with various combinations of available characters that would be better for all the players, but that's not the topic of discussion here.
n25philly said: Fightmastermpq said: n25philly said: Actually again your points are flat out wrong. Under the old system I only had to save up HP. I could roster new characters when I could and each time I would pull until I got someone new. Sometimes I'd pull a dozen covers sometimes 1. Kind of the fun of it, you never know what you get. Now, even getting the HP to roster everyone is enough I need the HP and the ISO for it to make any sense. Very, very different. Instead of hording until I get to 1000 hp I would have to horde until I get 12000 and all the iso to level them or it's a waste to pull. Can't you see how big of a difference that is? It will actually be more than that though with more 3*'s coming. Huh? By that logic you've been saving up 47,000 HP before pulling anything so that you could roster all the 4s before you begin pulling. Your pull strategy DOES NOT CHANGE. You save until you have 1k HP and then you pull until you get a character that you don't have rostered, roster the new character, and stop. That's it. n25philly said:Except you are on a personal crusade for everyone to be wrong no matter what. Don't you see the difference between you and me. You are saying it must be vaulting or else. All I want is some options so I don't spend the next year or two in purgatory if I don't end up quitting. It doesn't have to be one way or another, and I am not saying we must go back to the old way as it definitely has it's problems. But a poorly thought out system that clearly hurts a decent portion of the player base should be changes. Quite honestly if you aren't one of the devs or just someone that enjoys those of us hurt by the system's misery, I am kind of scared to think what you are as I can't think of any way your pigheadedness on this makes sense as you seem to be 100% against anything but the current broken system no matter what. Guess what it doesn't benefit everyone, fact. It's honestly not about right or wrong, I don't care. I'm really trying to help you and everyone else that can't seem to grasp the benefits of vaulting understand how they can alter their roster strategy to maximize their progress. If you want to say that vaulting is bad because it reduces the flow of 310-370 higher value champ rewards, or because you had a roster full of 9-11 cover vaulted 4*s and now it's going to take you a lot longer to be competitive, or because you don't even really care about being good but you love X-Men characters and now it's way harder to get them then those are all valid complaints. But when you say things like "now I need 12,000 HP before I can open another token" you are overreacting and letting emotion dictate your actions rather than reason, and when people say stuff like that others read it and start to think vaulting is something that it's not. And I am most certainly not saying it must be vaulting or else - but that IS the topic of this thread, and so I'm trying to limit the discussion to the pros and cons of vaulting+BH vs. the old system. Obviously they could add 4 or 40 more LTs with various combinations of available characters that would be better for all the players, but that's not the topic of discussion here. I love hearing your arguements because they make less and less sense every time. You're getting like an angry comedy routine.47,000 hp before I pull? Huh? No, old system I needed 1000 before I pulled. I never had to worry about what I pulled because I could always pull more for the character later. There was no downside to going slow.If I go slow in the new system I am just wasting. Lets say I have an extra 1000 hp now, go and pull tokens and pull one of the characters close to moving into the vault. That pull was a waste because they will be gone before I full cover them let alone champ them. Once they are in the vault they are virtually gone.I know already what you are going to say, pull until you get someone like iron fist that was just added so I have more time. Still won't pull fast enough going the slow route and full cover/level him and I'll just end up throwing away cp in the process. More waste.The only way to more forward without tons of waste is to horde and put together a lot of HP/ISO to be able to virtually cover rostering/leveling the 12 or they will just go to waste if I pull them. It's not overreacting, it is what it is. You seem to think that everyone has the resources you do.It's a very flawed system. I'm not saying it has to go back to the way it was, but there needs to be an option for the people that need it. Then again you will never agree because you can't admit that this is all about what's best for you, not what's best for anyone else or the game.
n25philly said:they will be gone before I full cover them let alone champ them
Vhailorx said: (3) the 3* middle class. These players have all the old 4*s rostered, but were having a really hard time building a core group of 4* champs pre-vault because of dilution. And to make things worse, having a handful of good 4*s covered and leveled isn't nearly as valuable as it used to be because 4* boosting is so strong. It's getting harder and harder to hit 900 without 2x boosted 4* champs. From this perspective, vaulting is great because it will allow these early transitioners much easier access to current 12 4*s, which means they can get into 4* champ play noticeably faster than before. pro-vaulting
Ayasugi-san said: Vhailorx said: (3) the 3* middle class. These players have all the old 4*s rostered, but were having a really hard time building a core group of 4* champs pre-vault because of dilution. And to make things worse, having a handful of good 4*s covered and leveled isn't nearly as valuable as it used to be because 4* boosting is so strong. It's getting harder and harder to hit 900 without 2x boosted 4* champs. From this perspective, vaulting is great because it will allow these early transitioners much easier access to current 12 4*s, which means they can get into 4* champ play noticeably faster than before. pro-vaulting That's me, and still anti-vaulting. Getting into 4* champ play faster isn't that great when ISO is still scarce enough that you can only champ a 4* every 2-3 weeks, and once you have a 4* champ, you start seeing champed boosted 4* teams in PVP nodes much sooner in the climb. Plus you have to use that champ for most of your battles, and given the reason for nerfing OML was overusage you start to wonder if the 4* that's carrying your team will be next to be nerfed and make the game even harder than it was before you champed them...
GurlBYE said: If your arguments consistently and constantly only refute the other person based on "well for me its..." in a game based in rng, what exactly are you even in discussion about? How things played out for you?... Thread summed up: newsflash, The change effected everyone differently based on where their rosters are/were, and no amount of you hitting the keyboard will suddenly change how that affected someone who isn't yourself. You telling someone that X is better for them won't suddenly make their game goals shift to what you expect.
Polares said: I keep seeing people that relates Bonus Heroes with Vaulting, and justify that Vaulting is better because of Bonus Heroes. Please STOP DOING THAT! Nobody has said that those things should go together and that they are bonded for eternity, they were released together, but that's it. Tomorrow Devs can remove Vaulting completely, and leave Bonus Heroes as is right now, as a good way of completing dilution. They are two different features!Vaulting is BAD for everybody except super whales. Bonus heroes is good for everybody. Do you see the difference?
broll said: Fight I can't tell you if you are just so out of touch with what a lower player's experience is like that you can't see it or if you are intentionally trying to trick people into thinking this is a better system for them than it is because it gives you a competitive advantage. I'd believe either at this point... I've said my peace and I'm surely not going to change your mind or stop you from spouting nonsense so I'm gonna find better ways to spend my time.
Vhailorx said: 5% is too low to counter dilution, but it's an awesome way to build 10 or 20 vintage 4*s? C'mon fight, you can make a more coherent argument than that.BH and vaulting aren't linked except by demi. If you want to compare new system versus old then i think the new system is slughtly worse (helps something, hurts others).But what i want is a better new system.
You are correct that you don't say "awesome" in this quotation. But I think you are pretty clearly implying that BH for a top 10 or 20 vintage 4*s is a good solution for new players in combination with vaulting. You set a time horizon of "starting the game up to the point at which a player can champ a new 4* every 2 weeks."
Well, we can make some educated guesses about those assertions.
(1) On a mobile platform, it is basically possible to champ a new 4* every 2 weeks by grinding 4/6 in every pve event and playing ddq. (that will give players something like 20k iso a day, which is actually a little more than is needed). Doing this requires a player to have all 2*, 3* and 4* characters rostered so they never miss an essential node. In the current system, I think it will take 8-12 months for a new player to do this without spending lots of cash (basically they need to rank up to 32 so they can access CL 7 4* prog rewards, and then use those rewards to fill in the gaps in their vintage bench. They will likely get some 4*s from champ rewards and lucky vault pulls, but not there will definitely be gaps).
(2) Per your assertion, in 8-12 months, a new player can use BH to "slowly cover" the top 10 or top 20 vintage 4*s. assuming they get at least 1 cover from other means, players need 12 more covers (assuming perfect distribution) to fully cover their favorited vintage 4*s. So in the easier to reach top 10 scenario, that means 120 bonus covers, which in turn means 2,400 4* cover pulls. I don't think many new players will get 2,400 4* cover pulls from heroic or legendary tokens during their first 8-12 months. Do you?
You suggested that BH alone isn't enough to overcome dilution, but simultaneously suggested that BH + daily resupply/champ rewards/vault pulls/prog covers IS enough build up a bench of vintage 4*s that is now almost as large as the pre-vaulting "diluted" 4* pool. It's an absurd suggestion fight.
And fwiw, I think that 5* BH bolted on to the old system would actually be a pretty great system for players. And Demi seems to agree with me since they balked at the idea and added in vaulting too (and further balked at the idea of putting vintage 4*s in classic LTs).
P.S. The game isn't stagnant, but example scenarios are easier if we assume many pulls happening at the same time. Once we start to account for the continued progress of the game over time, your argument actually gets a bit worse, since players need to keep grinding to preserve their LT efficiency. Yes, chasing the release schedule is a feature present in both the new system and the old system. But the new system imposes a much greater cost on players who "skip" a release and don't champ a current 12 4*. In the old system, a single unchamped 4* was a relatively small 1.8% risk of wasted covers. In the new system, each missing current 12 member is a 7% hit to LT efficiency that lasts for about 8 months.
Fightmastermpq said: Polares said: I keep seeing people that relates Bonus Heroes with Vaulting, and justify that Vaulting is better because of Bonus Heroes. Please STOP DOING THAT! Nobody has said that those things should go together and that they are bonded for eternity, they were released together, but that's it. Tomorrow Devs can remove Vaulting completely, and leave Bonus Heroes as is right now, as a good way of completing dilution. They are two different features!Vaulting is BAD for everybody except super whales. Bonus heroes is good for everybody. Do you see the difference? No, no, and no.The reality is that vaulting and BH exist together currently as a system for progression, and we are comparing this new system to our old system. Anything else adds no value. People were married to their roster plans under the old system, and I'm here trying to help people understand that those roster plans are now garbage because of this new system, and detail how this new system can be utilized to actually provide more/better/faster progression than the old system if people are simply able to forget about their old plans.