Has anyone done the math?

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  • n25phillyn25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    mohio said:
    I don't know how to say this in more ways...the pull percentages on individual characters is so low, you'd never make meaningful progress on your 4* without bonus heroes or without spending a boatload of money. As a quick illustration of both RNG and slooooow progress I'll offer up my own roster. For all intents and purposes I had 4hor, HB, Fury, JG, and XFW champed on day 1 (not completely true, but I don't think I ever wasted any covers. Their levels are HB at 307, Fury 301, JG 300, 4hor 297 (actually 310 but 13 are from a dupe I already had), and XFW 289. First, you can see that's 18 levels of variance over the time that championing has been out, so that's quite a lot. Second, XFW only gained 19 levels over the year+ that he's been championed. Dilution just means I would be pulling fewer and fewer of these covers, so while yeah I would like to keep growing them, I'm not deluded enough to think that I would be able to max champ them in any kind of reasonable time frame. 

    Where you guys have good points is looking at the "bigger picture" saying you had 75% champed or whatever, and now you only have 25% champed. Same for me, and yeah that short term picture really sucked. But it's just a short term setback. In another 3-6 months I'll easily be at 75% or higher and the older ones of the bunch will likely be up at 300 or so, getting those better champ rewards. 
    The problem with forcing it to only be the latest 12 is what do you do if you don't have those characters and don't have the resources to roster or level them.  If I pull a legendary token right now there is an 80% chance of pulling someone I can't roster.  So my options are to gut my roster of characters I want for a lot I could care less about and still not be able to level them in time, or horde for way too long.  Neither option is good or fun.

    Why not put a system in place that everyone has a way to progress?
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    n25philly said:
    mohio said:
    I don't know how to say this in more ways...the pull percentages on individual characters is so low, you'd never make meaningful progress on your 4* without bonus heroes or without spending a boatload of money. As a quick illustration of both RNG and slooooow progress I'll offer up my own roster. For all intents and purposes I had 4hor, HB, Fury, JG, and XFW champed on day 1 (not completely true, but I don't think I ever wasted any covers. Their levels are HB at 307, Fury 301, JG 300, 4hor 297 (actually 310 but 13 are from a dupe I already had), and XFW 289. First, you can see that's 18 levels of variance over the time that championing has been out, so that's quite a lot. Second, XFW only gained 19 levels over the year+ that he's been championed. Dilution just means I would be pulling fewer and fewer of these covers, so while yeah I would like to keep growing them, I'm not deluded enough to think that I would be able to max champ them in any kind of reasonable time frame. 

    Where you guys have good points is looking at the "bigger picture" saying you had 75% champed or whatever, and now you only have 25% champed. Same for me, and yeah that short term picture really sucked. But it's just a short term setback. In another 3-6 months I'll easily be at 75% or higher and the older ones of the bunch will likely be up at 300 or so, getting those better champ rewards. 
    The problem with forcing it to only be the latest 12 is what do you do if you don't have those characters and don't have the resources to roster or level them.  If I pull a legendary token right now there is an 80% chance of pulling someone I can't roster.  So my options are to gut my roster of characters I want for a lot I could care less about and still not be able to level them in time, or horde for way too long.  Neither option is good or fun.

    Why not put a system in place that everyone has a way to progress?
    Here again vaulting makes this easier on you, but you choose not to see it.  Vaulting has nothing to do with your HP shortage.  New characters were being released under the old system and you weren't rostering them either.  Under the old system you would still pull covers for new characters, choose not to roster them, and sell them.  It's FAR easier now for you to go through and pick the newest 4s that you want, sell the vaulted heroes that you don't care about, and fill those slots with good new 4s that you can actually progress with.

    You just need to look at your HP earn rate and determine X percentage of characters you are able to roster.  Then you sell off the ones that aren't in your top X percent and start working on the rest.  Vaulting doesn't really change this except that you can now champ the better of the newest 12 characters much quicker than anything previously.
  • n25phillyn25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    n25philly said:
    mohio said:
    I don't know how to say this in more ways...the pull percentages on individual characters is so low, you'd never make meaningful progress on your 4* without bonus heroes or without spending a boatload of money. As a quick illustration of both RNG and slooooow progress I'll offer up my own roster. For all intents and purposes I had 4hor, HB, Fury, JG, and XFW champed on day 1 (not completely true, but I don't think I ever wasted any covers. Their levels are HB at 307, Fury 301, JG 300, 4hor 297 (actually 310 but 13 are from a dupe I already had), and XFW 289. First, you can see that's 18 levels of variance over the time that championing has been out, so that's quite a lot. Second, XFW only gained 19 levels over the year+ that he's been championed. Dilution just means I would be pulling fewer and fewer of these covers, so while yeah I would like to keep growing them, I'm not deluded enough to think that I would be able to max champ them in any kind of reasonable time frame. 

    Where you guys have good points is looking at the "bigger picture" saying you had 75% champed or whatever, and now you only have 25% champed. Same for me, and yeah that short term picture really sucked. But it's just a short term setback. In another 3-6 months I'll easily be at 75% or higher and the older ones of the bunch will likely be up at 300 or so, getting those better champ rewards. 
    The problem with forcing it to only be the latest 12 is what do you do if you don't have those characters and don't have the resources to roster or level them.  If I pull a legendary token right now there is an 80% chance of pulling someone I can't roster.  So my options are to gut my roster of characters I want for a lot I could care less about and still not be able to level them in time, or horde for way too long.  Neither option is good or fun.

    Why not put a system in place that everyone has a way to progress?
    Here again vaulting makes this easier on you, but you choose not to see it.  Vaulting has nothing to do with your HP shortage.  New characters were being released under the old system and you weren't rostering them either.  Under the old system you would still pull covers for new characters, choose not to roster them, and sell them.  It's FAR easier now for you to go through and pick the newest 4s that you want, sell the vaulted heroes that you don't care about, and fill those slots with good new 4s that you can actually progress with.

    You just need to look at your HP earn rate and determine X percentage of characters you are able to roster.  Then you sell off the ones that aren't in your top X percent and start working on the rest.  Vaulting doesn't really change this except that you can now champ the better of the newest 12 characters much quicker than anything previously.
    I sometimes I wish I could live in the alternate reality you do so I could just ignore anything and everything that.  First off you are a five star player, so you should try to be the authority on everyone that isn't.

    Second, you should stop calling out bad math left and right when none of the math either makes sense or applies to the people you are talking to.

    Pulling tokens to just throw away covers to level a few characters is just pure stupid.  Maybe if you already have everything and get the ridiculous amounts of resources you say you do (which the numbers don't seem to add up)  then maybe you can afford to, but I know I don't get enough from my play for it to make any kind of sense.

    How many time do I have to say that I AM NOT GOING TO GUT MY ROSTER AND SELL AWAY CHARACTERS I WILL HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME REPLACING before it sinks it.  To force that on us is pure stupid and if that is what they want they should just delete the characters from the game period.

    I've said numerous times, over and over again that I support a way to reduce pulls and allow people the latest if they want, but there should be an option for those of us that it just doesn't work at all.  Despite the **** you are saying that does not add dilution to the game (options are good, and allowing players like me to be happy with the game, keep playing and spend money is a good thing)  I'm sorry, but you are either a developer posing as a player to try and crusade for this broken system against anyone that dares question it, or the kind of person that takes joy in others being miserable.  It would explain why you are so against any change that would actual work for those of us hurt by this.  This system is flat out broken for a portion of the playerbase which is a very bad thing.  I am sorry that offends you, but it is the truth no matter how much you try to bend reality to deny it.
  • brollbroll Posts: 4,731 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2017
    How do you define "gotta catch em all"? Rostering all characters? Champing all characters? Max-champing all characters?  
    Depends on the player.  
    Vaulting+BH will typically do all of these things better.  
    You keep saying that word, I don't think you know what it means....

    Will rostering be better by vaulting+BH?  - No.  The rule of odds would say that since all odds for characters before were even you'd be able to roster every character by pulling the total number of characters + the percentage that represents 5* pulls so 60ish?  Obviously RNG is cruel mistress and you will have some unlucky stragglers, but let's say by 120 pulls you'd have 90% or more.  120 pulls will get you 6 bonus pulls.  To roster all vaulted characters (excluding the fact that new ones get added every 2-3 weeks) it would take 700 pulls, if you got one at every 5%.  There are other ways to roster them but vaulting + BH absolutely does not make rostering all characters better.

    Championing all characters?  - No.  I'm not going to expel a lot of effort into explaining it, the principle is the same as above.  It's going to be 10-20% slower to champion all characters just as rostering, because this the same thing, just getting 13 characters vs 1.

    Max-champing all - Again same principle.
  • JaedenkaalJaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    n25philly said:
    The problem with forcing it to only be the latest 12 is what do you do if you don't have those characters and don't have the resources to roster or level them.  If I pull a legendary token right now there is an 80% chance of pulling someone I can't roster.  So my options are to gut my roster of characters I want for a lot I could care less about and still not be able to level them in time, or horde for way too long.  Neither option is good or fun.

    This is true right now for some (the players who have most vaulted 4*s rostered and few new 4*s rostered, I guess) but won't be as much of an issue in perhaps 3 months when some of the 12 available characters have rotated, but the others are still in there and still giving out way more covers than pre-vaulting. 

    You'll still need to be able to come up with 1000 HP every two weeks (or so) to keep up with the new release schedule, and you'll need a slightly higher HP income to make up for the (roughly) 9-roster slot deficit that you apparently have right now, but both of those things were true prior to vaulting and haven't changed.

    Hording doesn't really help you either, unless you're rostering characters as fast or faster than they are being released.

    n25philly said:

    Why not put a system in place that everyone has a way to progress?
    You've been given several options for progressing. You don't like them, I can see from the all-caps up there, which is up to you.
  • Rodolfo78Rodolfo78 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 70 Match Maker

    Math aside, it's the experience that matters. I'm a 2-year player that's starting the 3* transition (as I've twice sold off my entire roster in an attempt to quit the game, ah well).

    For what it's worth, I currently have my bonus heroes set to "all characters I don't have rostered yet", since more rewards will eventually be available to me that way. I also am somewhat tired of seeing repetitive 4* pop up when I open legendaries- even though it's great to have C4rol somewhat usable, I prefer the excitement of a brand new option to the incremental power-up that another cover represents.

    I suppose it'd be different if I wanted to get to a 4* champ ASAP- I might have C4rol covered by now if I had entirely focused on it- but I want a diverse roster to have casual fun without careening into scaling problems. Count me among the folks that would love classic tokens to include all options.

  • astrp3astrp3 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 367 Mover and Shaker
    edited April 2017
    broll said:

    Will rostering be better by vaulting+BH?  - No.  The rule of odds would say that since all odds for characters before were even you'd be able to roster every character by pulling the total number of characters + the percentage that represents 5* pulls so 60ish?  Obviously RNG is cruel mistress and you will have some unlucky stragglers, but let's say by 120 pulls you'd have 90% or more.  120 pulls will get you 6 bonus pulls.  To roster all vaulted characters (excluding the fact that new ones get added every 2-3 weeks) it would take 700 pulls, if you got one at every 5%.  There are other ways to roster them but vaulting + BH absolutely does not make rostering all characters better.

    I realize you are only considering getting 4*s via legendary pulls and I agree that it will take longer to get every 4 rostered with BH than without, but there is an advantage to BH that somewhat mitigates this (though not nearly, IMO, enough to make it equitable with the old system).

    With the new system, once you get a vaulted 4* by other means (progression, SHIELD resupply, 3* reward etc.), you can take them off your bonus hero list and not have to worry about drawing them as BH anymore until you have them all rostered.

    As I said, however, even with this slight advantage, I think it will take longer under the new system to get em all rostered than it did before (I haven't taken new releases into account). And of course, they could have just added bonus heroes to the old stores.

  • n25phillyn25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    n25philly said:
    The problem with forcing it to only be the latest 12 is what do you do if you don't have those characters and don't have the resources to roster or level them.  If I pull a legendary token right now there is an 80% chance of pulling someone I can't roster.  So my options are to gut my roster of characters I want for a lot I could care less about and still not be able to level them in time, or horde for way too long.  Neither option is good or fun.

    This is true right now for some (the players who have most vaulted 4*s rostered and few new 4*s rostered, I guess) but won't be as much of an issue in perhaps 3 months when some of the 12 available characters have rotated, but the others are still in there and still giving out way more covers than pre-vaulting. 

    You'll still need to be able to come up with 1000 HP every two weeks (or so) to keep up with the new release schedule, and you'll need a slightly higher HP income to make up for the (roughly) 9-roster slot deficit that you apparently have right now, but both of those things were true prior to vaulting and haven't changed.

    Hording doesn't really help you either, unless you're rostering characters as fast or faster than they are being released.

    n25philly said:

    Why not put a system in place that everyone has a way to progress?
    You've been given several options for progressing. You don't like them, I can see from the all-caps up there, which is up to you.
    Actually hording is the only way to go now and will help.  It's horde until I have the HP and Iso to be able to do something with the new characters, or everything goes to waste.  That is the treadmill we are on now.  In the old system whenever I have enough hp to roster someone new and i didn't have anyone in my queue I would pull legendaries until I hit someone I didn't have and roster them and stop.  It works because I knew that no matter how many characters I had I could get more covers later and build as my resources allowed.  Now there is a ticking clock with every character before it becomes near impossible to get them, so unless I champ the 4*'s in the time frame they are available then any resource I spend is a waste.  Even if I do champ any of them then I am stuck with them as they will be the only viable characters I'll have thanks to everything scaling to them.  Again not fun being stuck with a small subset of characters and not being able to get what I need for ones I actually want.

    Lots of horrible options.  Why should the game be nothing but horrible options and be very broken?
  • JaedenkaalJaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    Out of curiosity, how many 4*s did you get championed before vaulting?
  • n25phillyn25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    Out of curiosity, how many 4*s did you get championed before vaulting?
    0, this came just as I was finishing up the 3*'s.  So many 4*'s I never even got to try.  It's especially frustrating as a huge x-men fan as I never really got to play any of their 4*'s and there won't be any new ones.
  • StarfuryStarfury Age Unconfirmed Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    mohio said:
    the devs want everyone playing with the newer characters that they spend their time creating, and not just collecting dust for 6 months when you finally get 13 covers, and then continue collecting dust 
    This brings up another problem with vaulting that doesn't get as much press.  People have posted here that their favorite part of the game is the pokemon effect (gotta catch em all) and it's well known how many gamers are completionist.  They are going to turn away that audience by ruining that aspect of the game.  

    How do you define "gotta catch em all"? Rostering all characters? Champing all characters? Max-champing all characters?  Vaulting+BH will typically do all of these things better.  

    Most people bitten by this Pokemon bug are hardcore in release events to get the initial cover(s), but if they miss one BH will likely reward it far sooner than RNG under the old system.  The advantage in champing and max champing all characters goes to Vaulting+BH as well as I described above thanks to fewer wasted covers, and being able to set your BH to the character that you "gotta catch".

    Complete and utter ****.

    A new player trying to cover all 47 regular 4* would need 700 4* pulls with vaulting and BH. At that point he's got 12 latest at level 315 and 35 old characters at 1 cover.

    700 4* pulls in the old system would've yielded on average 33 characters with 13 or more covers, with an average unicorn having between 6 and 7 covers and an average stalker having 10-11 champ levels.

    Now you might be justified in arguing that having 12 4* around 315 and 35 barely usable is the preferrable outcome. But that's a different discussion. You just can't pretend that Vaulting + BH is a practical way of covering all characters. (or champing / max-champing them)

    BH (with or without vaulting) is a good way to roster the few remaining characters that you don't get from other sources. But as soon as you're relying on it to get more than a few covers for a few select characters, it completely fails to deliver tha required amount of covers.

    Just imagine trying to completely cover all 35 older characters in the new system. Even assuming you got 8 covers for each character from alternative sources (progression rewards, champ rewards, etc.), you'd still need 175 bonus heroes, or 3500 4* pulls.

    At this rate, a new player is actually best advised to completely vaulted 4*, because he'll never manage to make more than a tiny handful of them reach a useful level.

    It's really a sad state of affairs, that the best the devs came up with to solve dilution for those most affected by it (new players who don't already have everything) was to just permanently lock away 75% of their characters.


  • JaedenkaalJaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2017
    n25philly said:
     It's especially frustrating as a huge x-men fan as I never really got to play any of their 4*'s and there won't be any new ones.
    Well I definitely empathize with this, and I'm certain Demi/D3 does as well. It's really a nonsense situation for everyone (except Fox, I guess?)
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Starfury said:
    broll said:
    mohio said:
    the devs want everyone playing with the newer characters that they spend their time creating, and not just collecting dust for 6 months when you finally get 13 covers, and then continue collecting dust 
    This brings up another problem with vaulting that doesn't get as much press.  People have posted here that their favorite part of the game is the pokemon effect (gotta catch em all) and it's well known how many gamers are completionist.  They are going to turn away that audience by ruining that aspect of the game.  

    How do you define "gotta catch em all"? Rostering all characters? Champing all characters? Max-champing all characters?  Vaulting+BH will typically do all of these things better.  

    Most people bitten by this Pokemon bug are hardcore in release events to get the initial cover(s), but if they miss one BH will likely reward it far sooner than RNG under the old system.  The advantage in champing and max champing all characters goes to Vaulting+BH as well as I described above thanks to fewer wasted covers, and being able to set your BH to the character that you "gotta catch".

    Complete and utter tinykitty.

    A new player trying to cover all 47 regular 4* would need 700 4* pulls with vaulting and BH. At that point he's got 12 latest at level 315 and 35 old characters at 1 cover.

    700 4* pulls in the old system would've yielded on average 33 characters with 13 or more covers, with an average unicorn having between 6 and 7 covers and an average stalker having 10-11 champ levels.

    Now you might be justified in arguing that having 12 4* around 315 and 35 barely usable is the preferrable outcome. But that's a different discussion. You just can't pretend that Vaulting + BH is a practical way of covering all characters. (or champing / max-champing them)

    BH (with or without vaulting) is a good way to roster the few remaining characters that you don't get from other sources. But as soon as you're relying on it to get more than a few covers for a few select characters, it completely fails to deliver tha required amount of covers.

    Just imagine trying to completely cover all 35 older characters in the new system. Even assuming you got 8 covers for each character from alternative sources (progression rewards, champ rewards, etc.), you'd still need 175 bonus heroes, or 3500 4* pulls.

    At this rate, a new player is actually best advised to completely vaulted 4*, because he'll never manage to make more than a tiny handful of them reach a useful level.

    It's really a sad state of affairs, that the best the devs came up with to solve dilution for those most affected by it (new players who don't already have everything) was to just permanently lock away 75% of their characters.


    Sigh.  Everyone is so quick to disagree that no one comprehends my point.

    Everything you said is true....if you were trying to champ all 47 characters IN ONE DAY.  But that isn't a reality.  And when people say "Gotta catch em all" it means ALL - everyone going forward from now until forever.  Every 2 weeks you get a new character to try and catch and getting to the point where you are actually catching and champing characters fast enough to keep up with that quick pace is really tough.  In fact, not too long ago even as a hardcore vet I took the position that I was unable to earn ISO fast enough to keep up and would have to come to grips with the fact that there were certain 4*s that I would never champ.  Since then they introduced intercepts, and I've been playing PvE more competitively and so I'm now making enough to outpace the release schedule, but that takes a lot of time and is going to be a pretty big limiting factor with or without vaulting.  By the time most players get to the point where they are able to keep pace with the release schedule they are still more likely to be ISO starved than cover starved on vaulted 4s.

    We've always asked "who do I champ next?" And the discussion is always driven by which characters we have covers for, that won't change.  It's just now the character that you have covers for will always be of the newest 4s.  The benefit now though is that you get to pick the best of the vaulted 4s as your bonus to champ when (if) you ever have a surplus of ISO.  Before Valuting+BH we never got to do that, if RNGesus gave you Venom covers you went ahead and champed Venom.
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    How do you define "gotta catch em all"? Rostering all characters? Champing all characters? Max-champing all characters?  
    Depends on the player.  
    Vaulting+BH will typically do all of these things better.  
    You keep saying that word, I don't think you know what it means....

    Will rostering be better by vaulting+BH?  - No.  The rule of odds would say that since all odds for characters before were even you'd be able to roster every character by pulling the total number of characters + the percentage that represents 5* pulls so 60ish?  Obviously RNG is cruel mistress and you will have some unlucky stragglers, but let's say by 120 pulls you'd have 90% or more.  120 pulls will get you 6 bonus pulls.  To roster all vaulted characters (excluding the fact that new ones get added every 2-3 weeks) it would take 700 pulls, if you got one at every 5%.  There are other ways to roster them but vaulting + BH absolutely does not make rostering all characters better.

    Championing all characters?  - No.  I'm not going to expel a lot of effort into explaining it, the principle is the same as above.  It's going to be 10-20% slower to champion all characters just as rostering, because this the same thing, just getting 13 characters vs 1.

    Max-champing all - Again same principle.
    There are two crucial things you are missing - just like Starfury you are looking at the characters that exist today and only today without considering the effort it takes to champ/max champ all characters over time.  When you consider the time it takes to get to a point where you can actually champ characters faster than they are released, and consider a brand new player starting today with no 4*s, they could set their BH to the T10 or hell T20 vaulted characters and just let them slowly get covered over time as they progress to the point where they are champing a 4* every 2 weeks or better and by then they can start to go back and champ the older 4s.  

    The other thing you are missing is that covers are acquired from several locations others than tokens and this has always been the primary way to get the first cover for every character so that you can compete in things like PvE essentials, DDQ, etc.  Every PvP has a 4* at 900, and then again in placement rewards and we get 3 of those every week.  Every PvE has a 4* in progression and placement as well and we get 1 or 2 of those every week.  You can hoard vault tokens waiting for the character(s) that you need to show up and then guarantee that you get who you want.  Champion rewards for 3*s will grant 1 of each color of their corresponding 4*.  And if after all that there are a handful of unicorns then BH deals with that FAR better from the previous system.

    I must conceded that yes, starting from 0 and trying to acquire ALL 47 characters in the 4* pool through tokens ALONE is obviously more difficult with BH only, but that just doesn't reflect reality.
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    n25philly said:

    I sometimes I wish I could live in the alternate reality you do so I could just ignore anything and everything that.  First off you are a five star player, so you should try to be the authority on everyone that isn't.
    I know right? It's great being me.
    n25philly said:

    Second, you should stop calling out bad math left and right when none of the math either makes sense or applies to the people you are talking to.
    To be fair, we are both in the minority at opposite ends of the spectrum. The reason people speak generically about vaulting is because it only applies to people that are playing at a higher level than you. If you don't generate enough HP to roster everyone then you are faced with all the same roster decisions with or without vaulting, and quite frankly if you can't pull enough covers to cover a character in 8 months then you weren't going to make any meaningful progress pre-vaulting anyway and so the discussion is really irrelevant to you. Sorry you don't FEEL the same, but that is what the MATH says.
    n25philly said:

    Pulling tokens to just throw away covers to level a few characters is just pure stupid.  Maybe if you already have everything and get the ridiculous amounts of resources you say you do (which the numbers don't seem to add up)  then maybe you can afford to, but I know I don't get enough from my play for it to make any kind of sense.

    How many time do I have to say that I AM NOT GOING TO GUT MY ROSTER AND SELL AWAY CHARACTERS I WILL HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME REPLACING before it sinks it.
    I'm sorry but the rate at which you earn resources currently already dictates that you do this. Nothing changes. If under the old system you were hoarding all your pulls until you had enough HP and ISO to make sure that you didn't have a wasted pull then you can still continue to do that. And if you still aren't earning at a fast enough rate to be able to champ the newest 4*s in 8 months then you are just going to have to hoard longer or just play more. You might have to come to grips with the fact that the devs aren't really interested in bending over backwards to make things easier for the super casual players that aren't active enough to make meaningful progress in 8 months.
    n25philly said:

    I'm sorry, but you are either a developer posing as a player to try and crusade for this broken system against anyone that dares question it, or the kind of person that takes joy in others being miserable.
    I'm neither of those things, and I don't care if you like or speak out against the system, I'm simply trying to help others understand the long-term benefits of vaulting and how it can actually be good for their rosters.

     I am sorry that offends you, but it is the truth no matter how much you try to bend reality to deny it.
  • BoyWonder1914BoyWonder1914 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    Vaulting and BH just gives you so much more control over your long term roster plans, and for a community that has reviled RNG-based progression for so long I really just have to assume that most just aren't seeing this massive long-term benefit that vaulting has brought us..
    I would argue that BH gives control, vaulting takes it away.  Vaulting is more aggressive than BH.  1 step forward, 2 steps back.  If the vaulted characters were available somewhere, classics, a new token vault, whatever, then I would agree it's more control, but it's not.  We are at the mercy of the schedule for when we can get those characters outside of a 5% chance and a few other outlying ways to get them that we have no control over.
    The sheer amount of people failing to understand this is starting to get very annoying with all these damn notifications. For God's sake, no one is arguing the value of Bonus Heroes. A 5% chance to specifically get someone you want is fantastic. 

    For God's sake, no one is arguing that vaulting DOESN'T increase your capability of covering newer characters faster, which was a problem under the old system with token dilution. 

    What's really grinding my gears here, is you people who INSIST these two things together are enough to get someone anything they could possibly want. I don't give a damn if champing the newer characters still keeps me competitive, I don't give a damn if I'm still champing 4s at the exact same rate. All people want here, is access to the covers that THEY want, not who the game forces you to pull with vaulting, not who everyone recommends is the bees knees. Vaulting cuts you off from a pool that contains what you want, even if that pool was diluted, it's better than NOTHING. Sure you can make someone a bonus hero, but what happens after you've got most people in the limited 12-vault fully covered? You're not going to keep banging your head against the wall of an incredibly high waste rate just to keep hoping for your shot at 5%. So now you hoard LTs and CP, meanwhile its going to take forever before you either champ most people in the vault, or there's enough new people in the vault that a pull isn't throwing CPs/LTs in the garbage. As several people have already pointed out, no one would care if you just put these vaulted people somewhere else that they can be pulled, but that's not what happened. 
  • VhailorxVhailorx Posts: 5,162 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2017
    Fight, you are not playing the same game as most players.  Talking about the 900 prog cover in pvp as a means for new players to roster new characters?  

    Have you checked out low level pvp recently?  It's getting hard to hit 900 without 2x boosted 4* champs let alone 3*s (i am sure it's still doable with 3*s, but it probably takes 1-3 shields and a strong 3* roster, and a good understanding of the pvp system).

    And pve prog covers are little better for players without the essential characters.  Yes, if you have the 2* and 3* essentials, you can generally get the 4* prog cover.  But that means rostering everyone this way takes cycling through about 10 months of pve AFTER reaching rank 32 for CL7 (about 1.66 events per week . But new releases extend the cycle).  And that is just for a single cover for each vintage 4*.

    Dont even begin to say "placement"!  Top 10 or top 5 finishes are effectively impossible even if new players can play in CL 7+.  Bracket sniping is possible but extremely unreliable.  

    And vaults cost money and/or require months of hoarding to be a reliable source of 4* covers.  So daily resupply and champ rewards are supposed to be the main source of vintage 4* covers.  Those dont really kick in until year 2 of daily reupply or level 183 for champed 3*s.

    And champing multiple 4*s from BH?  That's crazy.  It takes 260 4* pulls to get 13 covers for 1 character. That is a lot of pulls for someone who doesn't have a strong 4* roster.  And that is just 1 favorite 4*.  The idea that a player can "set their BH to the top 10" and make meaningful progress is ridiculousm. That's 2600 4* cover pulls assuming no 6th covers and the ideal 5% rate.  

    It's supposed to be a good thing that new players have to pull 216 covers for each of the current 12 4*s just to get 13/13 on 10 vintage 4*s?!  Even though the game treats both characters equally with respect to weekly boosts and essential nodes?
  • FightmastermpqFightmastermpq Age Unconfirmed Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Vhailorx said:
    Fight, you are not playing the same game as most players.  Talking about the 900 prog cover in pvp as a means for new players to roster new characters?  

    Have you checked out low level pvp recently?  It's getting hard to hit 900 without 2x boosted 4* champs let alone 3*s (i am sure it's still doable with 3*s, but it probably takes 1-3 shields and a strong 3* roster, and a good understanding of the pvp system).

    And pve prog covers are little better for players without the essential characters.  Yes, if you have the 2* and 3* essentials, you can generally get the 4* prog cover.  But that means rostering everyone this way takes cycling through about 10 months of pve AFTER reaching rank 32 for CL7 (about 1.66 events per week . But new releases extend the cycle).  And that is just for a single cover for each vintage 4*.

    Dont even begin to say "placement"!  Top 10 or top 5 finishes are effectively impossible even if new players can play in CL 7+.  Bracket sniping is possible but extremely unreliable.  

    And vaults cost money and/or require months of hoarding to be a reliable source of 4* covers.  So daily resupply and champ rewards are supposed to be the main source of vintage 4* covers.  Those dont really kick in until year 2 of daily reupply or level 183 for champed 3*s.

    And champing multiple 4*s from BH?  That's crazy.  It takes 260 4* pulls to get 13 covers for 1 character. That is a lot of pulls for someone who doesn't have a strong 4* roster.  And that is just 1 favorite 4*.  The idea that a player can "set their BH to the top 10" and make meaningful progress is ridiculousm. That's 2600 4* cover pulls assuming no 6th covers and the ideal 5% rate.  

    It's supposed to be a good thing that new players have to pull 216 covers for each of the current 12 4*s just to get 13/13 on 10 vintage 4*s?!  Even though the game treats both characters equally with respect to weekly boosts and essential nodes?
    Is it unreasonable to expect players wanting to advance into the 4* tier to put in the effort to achieve at least some 4* rewards at some point???

    In regards to your final bolded paragraph.....I don't think you are even hearing me at all at this point.  You keep making this same mistake over and over again.  Yes 2600 pulls is a ton, but both of us have pulled that many 4*s, and we didn't do it all in one day, or even all over an 8 month period - it took years.  Just like it will take new players years to champ every 4* in the game - and that is really no different than it was without vaulting.
  • astrp3astrp3 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 367 Mover and Shaker
    Vhailorx said:
    Dont even begin to say "placement"!  Top 10 or top 5 finishes are effectively impossible even if new players can play in CL 7+.  Bracket sniping is possible but extremely unreliable.  

    I agree about top 5 placement and 900 prog in PvP, but top 10 in PvE with a 3* roster is not impossible. I did it twice in the last couple of months and almost surely would have done it in two others (one of which was a Peggy event) had I not made two stupid mistakes (starting too late  and thinking I could slip in a lightning round in the middle of my final three clears). And I play like an idiot.

    And if you have to have two boosted 4*s to make 900 in PvP, I'm gonna be a little bummed. I can make 800 about half the time now and was hoping that once I got a few 4*s, I'd be able to make 900, but maybe not. Heck, I may even find that once I get some 4*s, I can't even make 800 anymore due to MMR. That would really bum me out - though I can't say it would surprise me.


  • n25phillyn25philly Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    To be fair, we are both in the minority at opposite ends of the spectrum. The reason people speak generically about vaulting is because it only applies to people that are playing at a higher level than you. If you don't generate enough HP to roster everyone then you are faced with all the same roster decisions with or without vaulting, and quite frankly if you can't pull enough covers to cover a character in 8 months then you weren't going to make any meaningful progress pre-vaulting anyway and so the discussion is really irrelevant to you. Sorry you don't FEEL the same, but that is what the MATH says.


    Except for the part where that is pure ****.  It's not the same.  Under the old system I could take as much time as I like to cover/level any character because no one is going anywhere.  Under the new system there is a time limit to get everyone leveled before they get vaulted and near impossible to get covers for.  Huge difference.  Then again you don't seem to be able to wrap you mind around the idea that everyone doesn't need to have their characters champed immediately.  Under the old system you could build slow.  Trying to do so now is just wasteful.  Of course in your world where 1+1=2345807 that won't add up.
    n25philly said:

    Pulling tokens to just throw away covers to level a few characters is just pure stupid.  Maybe if you already have everything and get the ridiculous amounts of resources you say you do (which the numbers don't seem to add up)  then maybe you can afford to, but I know I don't get enough from my play for it to make any kind of sense.

    How many time do I have to say that I AM NOT GOING TO GUT MY ROSTER AND SELL AWAY CHARACTERS I WILL HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME REPLACING before it sinks it.
    I'm sorry but the rate at which you earn resources currently already dictates that you do this. Nothing changes. If under the old system you were hoarding all your pulls until you had enough HP and ISO to make sure that you didn't have a wasted pull then you can still continue to do that. And if you still aren't earning at a fast enough rate to be able to champ the newest 4*s in 8 months then you are just going to have to hoard longer or just play more. You might have to come to grips with the fact that the devs aren't really interested in bending over backwards to make things easier for the super casual players that aren't active enough to make meaningful progress in 8 months.


    Actually again your points are flat out wrong.  Under the old system I only had to save up HP.  I could roster new characters when I could and each time I would pull until I got someone new.  Sometimes I'd pull a dozen covers sometimes 1.  Kind of the fun of it, you never know what you get.  Now, even getting the HP to roster everyone is enough I need the HP and the ISO for it to make any sense.  Very, very different.  Instead of hording until I get to 1000 hp I would have to horde until I get 12000 and all the iso to level them or it's a waste to pull.  Can't you see how big of a difference that is?  It will actually be more than that though with more 3*'s coming.
    n25philly said:

    I'm sorry, but you are either a developer posing as a player to try and crusade for this broken system against anyone that dares question it, or the kind of person that takes joy in others being miserable.
    I'm neither of those things, and I don't care if you like or speak out against the system, I'm simply trying to help others understand the long-term benefits of vaulting and how it can actually be good for their rosters.

     I am sorry that offends you, but it is the truth no matter how much you try to bend reality to deny it.

    Except you are on a personal crusade for everyone to be wrong no matter what.  Don't you see the difference between you and me.  You are saying it must be vaulting or else.  All I want is some options so I don't spend the next year or two in purgatory if I don't end up quitting.  It doesn't have to be one way or another, and I am not saying we must go back to the old way as it definitely has it's problems.  But a poorly thought out system that clearly hurts a decent portion of the player base should be changes.  Quite honestly if you aren't one of the devs or just someone that enjoys those of us hurt by the system's misery, I am kind of scared to think what you are as I can't think of any way your pigheadedness on this makes sense as you seem to be 100% against anything but the current broken system no matter what.  Guess what it doesn't benefit everyone, fact.

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