j0nats wrote: Another con is i dont feel like champing ares again since other toons need the iso.
Polares wrote: Quebbster wrote: Warbringa wrote: Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month. That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary. One thing to keep in mind is that two-star covers are significantly easier to get in three-star and fourstar land. It's a lot easier to play PvP and Lightning rounds in particularly and get two-star covers that way. I championed my Bag-man this weekend and I happened to have ten covers in my queue that I've gotten from PvP drops the last two weeks... The other characters are easier to get, so having fifteen covers in queue shouldn't be a problem. This is a really BAD investment for anyone in 4 to 5 land. You are wasting precious iso in champing and leveling 2s to get rewards you don't need (3s and HP ?!?!?). The only thing worth getting is the 5CPs, but the iso you lose is much important for this very small amount of CPs The iso you are using for 2s can be used to champ 4s, which is basically what a 4 user should be doing. Even champing the meh to bad 3s is a very bad investment. You may recover some of the iso later on, but that iso can be used NOW for leveling 4s and 5s. And the rewards for champed 4s are much better. I have champed some 3s I never use just to get the LT and that was a really bad decision.
Quebbster wrote: Warbringa wrote: Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month. That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary. One thing to keep in mind is that two-star covers are significantly easier to get in three-star and fourstar land. It's a lot easier to play PvP and Lightning rounds in particularly and get two-star covers that way. I championed my Bag-man this weekend and I happened to have ten covers in my queue that I've gotten from PvP drops the last two weeks... The other characters are easier to get, so having fifteen covers in queue shouldn't be a problem.
Warbringa wrote: Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month. That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary.
Chipster22 wrote: For the fun of it I decided to run the numbers for 3*, 4*, and 5* character farming in the style of the OP. This is largely academic because of the large time spans required to champ and re-champ even a 3*, but I wanted to see the numbers anyway. I was unable to find the amount of HP given when selling 3*, 4*, and 5* maxed champs, so that bit is incomplete.3* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 3* champ = +105,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 3* = -6,500 ISO Re-max the 3* to level 166 + championing fee = -127,419 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -50,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +57,500 ISO Total = a loss of 21,419 ISO Other rewards earned: 1,000 HP + unknown amount when selling 2 Heroic tokens 5 Legendary tokens 50 Command points4* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 4* champ = +320,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 4* = -13,000 ISO Re-max the 4* to level 270 + championing fee = -378,320 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -100,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +112,500 ISO Total = a loss of 58,820 ISO Other rewards earned: 4,000 HP + unknown amount when selling 0 Heroic tokens 10 Legendary tokens 250 Command points5* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 5* champ = +500,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 5* = -26,000 ISO Re-max the 5* to level 450 + championing fee = -573,929 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -200,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +220,000 ISO Total = a loss of 79,929 ISO Other rewards earned: 19,250 HP + unknown amount when selling 0 Heroic tokens 25 Legendary tokens 625 Command points
PeterGibbons316 wrote: I disagree. My usable 5*s are as high as I can level them, and my 4*s collect dust. Champing additional 4* characters just means I have more 4* characters collecting dust. Meanwhile, my 3*s actually see play during their featured events. And every time their event rolls around I typically end up with anywhere from 3 to 5 additional covers for them. So for me it makes more sense to champ my mid/bottom tier 3* characters than my mid/bottom tier 4* characters. Same thing with 2*s now. The ISO you put into them comes back plus some other rewards. It all just depends on the person, their roster, and what they plan to do.
TxMoose wrote: PeterGibbons316 wrote: I disagree. My usable 5*s are as high as I can level them, and my 4*s collect dust. Champing additional 4* characters just means I have more 4* characters collecting dust. Meanwhile, my 3*s actually see play during their featured events. And every time their event rolls around I typically end up with anywhere from 3 to 5 additional covers for them. So for me it makes more sense to champ my mid/bottom tier 3* characters than my mid/bottom tier 4* characters. Same thing with 2*s now. The ISO you put into them comes back plus some other rewards. It all just depends on the person, their roster, and what they plan to do. I'm with PG - I'm one who has maxed tier 1 and most of tier 2 of the 4*s along with my 405 OML, any others I max will just sit unused (unless I get the last cover on quake or nova - those i'll pause the plan and max). I'm going back and completing the 3*, then the 2* rarities too. I've already done vision and colossus is getting done tomorrow. I'm prioritizing covers in queue (and expirations) and who they feed. hoarding most of my tokens until I finish the project (2-3 months) and then everything gets applied (so nova and quake unlikely to get finished with no token openings).
GrumpySmurf1002 wrote: Chipster22 wrote: For the fun of it I decided to run the numbers for 3*, 4*, and 5* character farming in the style of the OP. This is largely academic because of the large time spans required to champ and re-champ even a 3*, but I wanted to see the numbers anyway. I was unable to find the amount of HP given when selling 3*, 4*, and 5* maxed champs, so that bit is incomplete.3* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 3* champ = +105,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 3* = -6,500 ISO Re-max the 3* to level 166 + championing fee = -127,419 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -50,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +57,500 ISO Total = a loss of 21,419 ISO Other rewards earned: 1,000 HP + unknown amount when selling 2 Heroic tokens 5 Legendary tokens 50 Command points4* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 4* champ = +320,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 4* = -13,000 ISO Re-max the 4* to level 270 + championing fee = -378,320 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -100,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +112,500 ISO Total = a loss of 58,820 ISO Other rewards earned: 4,000 HP + unknown amount when selling 0 Heroic tokens 10 Legendary tokens 250 Command points5* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 5* champ = +500,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 5* = -26,000 ISO Re-max the 5* to level 450 + championing fee = -573,929 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -200,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +220,000 ISO Total = a loss of 79,929 ISO Other rewards earned: 19,250 HP + unknown amount when selling 0 Heroic tokens 25 Legendary tokens 625 Command points But again, this is not a 'loss.' Doing this infinitely does not drain your iso. Phrased another way, you gain 35081 in the process of champing and selling a maxed 3*. Instead of the other 21,419 iso, you receive the HP/CP/Token rewards.
GrumpySmurf1002 wrote: Chipster22 wrote: But again, this is not a 'loss.' Doing this infinitely does not drain your iso. Phrased another way, you gain 35081 in the process of champing and selling a maxed 3*. Instead of the other 21,419 iso, you receive the HP/CP/Token rewards. Isn't that counting the ISO rewards gained from championing twice then? The 57,500 ISO gained during championing was already included in the calculations to come up with the 21,419 ISO deficit.
Chipster22 wrote: But again, this is not a 'loss.' Doing this infinitely does not drain your iso. Phrased another way, you gain 35081 in the process of champing and selling a maxed 3*. Instead of the other 21,419 iso, you receive the HP/CP/Token rewards.
GrumpySmurf1002 wrote: It's not in double counting the championing rewards, it's in not counting the sold covers as a 'loss,' because it's not actually costing you anything. Option A (Championing): Sell a maxed 3* champ = +105,000 ISO Re-max the 3* to level 166 + championing fee = -127,419 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +57,500 ISO Gain is 35,081 iso + other stuff Option B (Selling): Gain is 56,500 iso + nothing else. The 'loss' is when comparing the two options, and amounts to 21,419, but both options lead to net Iso gain.
GrumpySmurf1002 wrote: Option A (Championing): Sell a maxed 3* champ = +105,000 ISO Re-max the 3* to level 166 + championing fee = -127,419 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +57,500 ISO Gain is 35,081 iso + other stuff Option B (Selling): Gain is 56,500 iso + nothing else. The 'loss' is when comparing the two options, and amounts to 21,419, but both options lead to net Iso gain.
GrumpySmurf1002 wrote: Chipster22 wrote: For the fun of it I decided to run the numbers for 3*, 4*, and 5* character farming in the style of the OP.3* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 3* champ = +105,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 3* = -6,500 ISO Re-max the 3* to level 166 + championing fee = -127,419 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -50,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +57,500 ISO Total = a loss of 21,419 ISO Other rewards earned: 1,000 HP + unknown amount when selling 2 Heroic tokens 5 Legendary tokens 50 Command points But again, this is not a 'loss.' Doing this infinitely does not drain your iso. Phrased another way, you gain 35081 in the process of champing and selling a maxed 3*. Instead of the other 21,419 iso, you receive the HP/CP/Token rewards.
Chipster22 wrote: For the fun of it I decided to run the numbers for 3*, 4*, and 5* character farming in the style of the OP.3* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 3* champ = +105,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 3* = -6,500 ISO Re-max the 3* to level 166 + championing fee = -127,419 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -50,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +57,500 ISO Total = a loss of 21,419 ISO Other rewards earned: 1,000 HP + unknown amount when selling 2 Heroic tokens 5 Legendary tokens 50 Command points
Chipster22 wrote: GrumpySmurf1002 wrote: Chipster22 wrote: For the fun of it I decided to run the numbers for 3*, 4*, and 5* character farming in the style of the OP.3* ISO rewards and costs: Sell a maxed 3* champ = +105,000 ISO Use 13 covers to create a new complete 3* = -6,500 ISO Re-max the 3* to level 166 + championing fee = -127,419 ISO Use 100 covers to max the champion levels = -50,000 ISO ISO rewards earned while championing = +57,500 ISO Total = a loss of 21,419 ISO Other rewards earned: 1,000 HP + unknown amount when selling 2 Heroic tokens 5 Legendary tokens 50 Command points But again, this is not a 'loss.' Doing this infinitely does not drain your iso. Phrased another way, you gain 35081 in the process of champing and selling a maxed 3*. Instead of the other 21,419 iso, you receive the HP/CP/Token rewards. I'm trying to understand why having less ISO would not be considered a loss. I believe that you would run out of ISO if you farmed champions without inputting more to the covers to the system. (Assuming a worse case scenario where you got the minimum rewards from tokens') For example, lets say a player has only the following: 1 champed 2* at level 144 63 covers for the same 2* character Exactly 17,500 ISO from champion rewards previously earned from existing champ The player could sell their existing 2* champ and receive 65,000 ISO bringing the total to 82,500 ISO. The player could then roster a new 2* and use 13 covers to full cover the character. Next the player could spend 74,529 ISO to fully level and champ the new character leaving 7,971 ISO. Finally the player could use the remaining 50 covers to max/champion their new character up to level 144 earning 17,500 ISO, 375 HP, 5 Heroic Tokens, Three 3* covers, and 5 Command Points in the process. At the end of this first cycle the player would have: 1 Champed 2* at level 144 0 covers 25,471 ISO 375 HP 5 Heroic Tokens (minimum 1,250 ISO) Three 3* covers (1,500 ISO) 5 Command Points (minimum 250 ISO if used to purchase a classic legendary token guaranteeing a 4*) The minimum ISO value of all the player's assets at the beginning was 98,250. (65,000 for the champ, 15,750 for the 63 covers, and 17,500 ISO) The minimum ISO value at the all the players assets at the end was 90,471. (65,000 for the new champ, and 25,471 ISO) The minimum ISO value at the end is 7,779 less at the end of the first cycle. If you add back in the ISO value of the heroic tokens, the three 3* covers, 5 Command Points, the deficit is still 4,779 ISO. The only reasons the player would not run out of ISO eventually is because they are adding covers earned outside of the farming system or they are receiving rewards greater than the minimum. Am I missing something, or misunderstanding your point?
Chipster22 wrote: Am I missing something, or misunderstanding your point?
MissChinch wrote: None of the scenarios I've seen discussed put a value on the time required to farm covers, they have all taken the covers as an assumed resource. Its not a loss because you have more ISO after the process than before: 25,471 > 17,500 It IS an opportunity cost, because the covers could have instead been sold for more than your net gain of about 8k ISO. If you want to assign a value to the farming done to acquire the covers in the first place of exactly their sale value, then in the scenario where you sell the covers you actually dont make any ISO, its a wash, net of 0 ISO. Valuing the farming time is going to be tricky which is why the covers have always been an assumed given... The discussion gets more subjective and likely a little less intuitive if you start valuing your time to farm, but its no less accurate, just much harder to compare between people because not everyones time is going to be worth the same value, hence leaving that out and trying to give the difference between both scenarios so people can choose based on the value of said time.
MissChinch wrote: Warbringa wrote: Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month. That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary. Something to keep in mind, you don't get to just elect to receive one specific characters cover, so you're essentially working on all 14 (or 13 if you remove bagman) in parallel... Even if you went at your pace of 4-5 months, you average that out: 13(5 heroic tokens, 3 guaranteed 3* covers, 5CP and 375HC) comes out to: 65 heroic tokens, 39 3* covers, 65CP and 4875 HC which taken per month equates to: 13 to 16.25 heroic tokens, 7.8 to 9.75 3* covers, 13 to 16.25 CP and 975 to 1218.75 HC per month, using the timeframe you stated in your post... So even moving at that speed, it would be nice to know that just by championing and selling 2*s you could keep up with the game releasing a new character per month without worrying about new slots... and get a better than a heroic 10 pack to boot, not to mention the 3* covers and CP... I'd say its worth serious consideration even if you take 4-5 months to max one out (which at the rate 2*s roll in seems extremely casual if you're already in the 3* range, and really quite slow even starting from scratch) but then again I'm a hoarder and don't like having covers for new characters I have to sell because I don't have slots to roster em...
Chipster22 wrote: MissChinch wrote: None of the scenarios I've seen discussed put a value on the time required to farm covers, they have all taken the covers as an assumed resource. Its not a loss because you have more ISO after the process than before: 25,471 > 17,500 It IS an opportunity cost, because the covers could have instead been sold for more than your net gain of about 8k ISO. If you want to assign a value to the farming done to acquire the covers in the first place of exactly their sale value, then in the scenario where you sell the covers you actually dont make any ISO, its a wash, net of 0 ISO. Valuing the farming time is going to be tricky which is why the covers have always been an assumed given... The discussion gets more subjective and likely a little less intuitive if you start valuing your time to farm, but its no less accurate, just much harder to compare between people because not everyones time is going to be worth the same value, hence leaving that out and trying to give the difference between both scenarios so people can choose based on the value of said time. I think what it may boil down too, and why I have a hard time accepting GrumpSmurf1002's and your explanations, is that in my mind there is no difference between a cover and it's ISO value. (At least for 2*'s) Before championing, every 2* cover I got was like a commodity that I sold for the 250 ISO as soon as I could get to the button. So I never actually have a pile of 63 covers as in my example above because they have already become ISO. If there were more uses for covers, I might understand the argument for opportunity costs and such. Anyway, I have started some champion farms because the odds are that the rewards will be much greater than the minimums no matter how you figure it and the fact that one reward can feed into another is a bonus.
Warbringa wrote: MissChinch wrote: Warbringa wrote: .... Something to keep in mind, you don't get to just elect to receive one specific characters cover, so you're essentially working on all 14 (or 13 if you remove bagman) in parallel... Even if you went at your pace of 4-5 months, you average that out: 13(5 heroic tokens, 3 guaranteed 3* covers, 5CP and 375HC) comes out to: 65 heroic tokens, 39 3* covers, 65CP and 4875 HC which taken per month equates to: 13 to 16.25 heroic tokens, 7.8 to 9.75 3* covers, 13 to 16.25 CP and 975 to 1218.75 HC per month, using the timeframe you stated in your post... So even moving at that speed, it would be nice to know that just by championing and selling 2*s you could keep up with the game releasing a new character per month without worrying about new slots... and get a better than a heroic 10 pack to boot, not to mention the 3* covers and CP... I'd say its worth serious consideration even if you take 4-5 months to max one out (which at the rate 2*s roll in seems extremely casual if you're already in the 3* range, and really quite slow even starting from scratch) but then again I'm a hoarder and don't like having covers for new characters I have to sell because I don't have slots to roster em... I only have maxed out 8 of my 2* and they maxed out all within a week or two of each other. I would have to spend more than that to do so going forward as I already had all of those 2* characters maxed (lvl 94) and a hoard of iso sitting around when championing occurred. In addition, I would suffer having low 2* characters in required PvE as I rebuilt them since I do tend to utilize boosted 2* in several team combinations quite frequently. That iso will that I would spend on farming 2* will be better used to level 4* for Crash of Titans and champing all 3* both for effectiveness and actually seeing progression. I only earn per average 50,000 iso or so per week unless I am grinding...which I have stopped doing for the most part these days.
MissChinch wrote: Warbringa wrote: .... Something to keep in mind, you don't get to just elect to receive one specific characters cover, so you're essentially working on all 14 (or 13 if you remove bagman) in parallel... Even if you went at your pace of 4-5 months, you average that out: 13(5 heroic tokens, 3 guaranteed 3* covers, 5CP and 375HC) comes out to: 65 heroic tokens, 39 3* covers, 65CP and 4875 HC which taken per month equates to: 13 to 16.25 heroic tokens, 7.8 to 9.75 3* covers, 13 to 16.25 CP and 975 to 1218.75 HC per month, using the timeframe you stated in your post... So even moving at that speed, it would be nice to know that just by championing and selling 2*s you could keep up with the game releasing a new character per month without worrying about new slots... and get a better than a heroic 10 pack to boot, not to mention the 3* covers and CP... I'd say its worth serious consideration even if you take 4-5 months to max one out (which at the rate 2*s roll in seems extremely casual if you're already in the 3* range, and really quite slow even starting from scratch) but then again I'm a hoarder and don't like having covers for new characters I have to sell because I don't have slots to roster em...
Warbringa wrote: ....
broll wrote: Warbringa wrote: Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month. That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary. I agree it's bad if you look at it as an investment of 70,000 ISO. I prefer to see it as more of perpetual re-investment to keep a steady revenue stream from the champion system. If you only sell a champion after you've made a clone of that character with 13 covers and immediately re-invest the ISO from the sale to champion the clone, then really all you've lost is 50 levels off the characters and a small amount of ISO and will gain champion rewards for future covers of that character where you would normally only earn ISO. The only way you really lose anything with this method is if you would have otherwise sold the 2* champion solely for profit without re-championing. Which probably makes sense if you're past the point of needing new 3* covers or having more than a few 2* champions, but for people still in 2* to 3* transition it can still make a lot sense. Also you are looking at this as 4-5 months of effort for little gain, however if you immediately re-invest it into a new character there is almost no effort to get that gain other than a small about of ISO and 1 character slot. This would be the difference in seeing buying a new house as spending 200k instead of transition the equity of your previous home into the sale of new one. Now I admit I'm not a finance guy, but this seems to make sense to me, if there is a flaw in my logic please feel free to show me where it is.