Selling 2* champions - stop the bad math

MissChinch

elwhiteninja wrote:

Personally I feel this change is a step in the right direction but it should be a bit more. It takes along time to collect 50 of the same 2* , a longer time to collect 100 of the same 3* and forever to collect 100 of the same 4*.

Then if you start over and do it all again it should be worth more because of time spent. Sure you get the non iso rewards but my time is worth more than a few heroic tokens and a few cp. Not to mention the dramatic drop in power.

I'm not saying it should be huge but if it was even:
A 5k gain for 2*
A 20k gain for 3*
A 100k for 4*

I think that would be reasonable and personally I would actually be motivated to champion all the 2* and 3* I have been selling.

It would be a major investment because my usable iso would go way down before it goes up. Thereby rewarding people who play more/longer.

I don't think that small of a gain could be abused either

The OP included both true costs and opportunity costs together in their summary, so it may be a bit misleading... Everytime you train, champ, max and sell a 2* you actually DO come out positive on ISO in the amount of about 7.9k, so your usable ISO would still go up, instead of down each time you complete a cycle.

mouser

MissChinch wrote:

The OP included both true costs and opportunity costs together in their summary, so it may be a bit misleading... Everytime you train, champ, max and sell a 2* you actually DO come out positive on ISO in the amount of about 7.9k, so your usable ISO would still go up, instead of down each time you complete a cycle.

I think you missed the "-" in the summary.

tizian2015

MissChinch wrote:

The OP included both true costs and opportunity costs together in their summary, so it may be a bit misleading... Everytime you train, champ, max and sell a 2* you actually DO come out positive on ISO in the amount of about 7.9k, so your usable ISO would still go up, instead of down each time you complete a cycle.

You are right, in numbers it will be positive, but it is not as much as positive if you are just selling all the covers. I think for me its worth this "loss". I liked the time as my 2*s grow up and gave me hp, cp, tokens and covers. And now those times come back

The Herald

The biggest thing we get out of this is the skinner box reward. 2* covers no longer feel like a waste as we can constantly cycle through Championing them.
We get to press buttons and stuff happens!
(It certainly works on me...)
There's also looking at this as a cover farm ecology...
If you cycle about you 2*s as soon as it becomes viable, you get specific 3* covers.
Those, long term, can be recycled in a similar way for 4*s.
Those 4 stars (on a glacially slow cycle) can ALSO be recycled for piles of LTs.

Whether you set up dupe farms (a good long term goal), or instantly recycle at max Champion +1 cover and just take downtime on the chin, you can create a steady flow of specific covers with what is ultimately a negligible loss of iso8.

It really IS negligible. Those Hero Tokens and upscaled 3* covers into Champion levels throw the worst case scenario math right out the window.

Edit: Just looked at how Champions flow. The Thing and X23 are pretty well poised in this theoretical "eco system", rebalanced pending O.o

Warbringa

Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month.

That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary.

PeterGibbons316

Warbringa wrote:

Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month.

That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will never be utilizing it.

Ultimately 8k ISO for a bit of HP, 5 heroics, 3 covers for a known 3*, and 5 CP is worth it to me.

The decision I came to was whether or not it was worth it to spend an additional ~500k ISO (slowly over that 4-5 month period that you mentioned) to have every 2* champed so that I can set up a system where all 2* covers get put to use in support of this exchange of about 8k ISO for HP/cover/CP rewards slowly over time. For me it makes sense. Currently my progression is limited by CP, not ISO, and anything to slowly earn CP over time (even if it is just 5 CP every couple of months) is what I need to be doing to continue to progress.

GrimSkald

This is a great post - nice for someone to break it down. I'd add a but more information to further quantify things. Here are the "extras:"

375 = 125 from selling, 250 from champion rewards
5x heroic tokens
3x hero specific 3*
5

HP are pretty much impossible to convert into ISO. You can sort of turn 100 hp into a Heroic Token once per day, but I doubt highly many of us would do that. Most likely it will go to defray Roster Slot costs.

Similarly, the CP are impossible to quantify as ISO, in this case literally as there is no way to convert them at all.

The Heroic Tokens are worth, on average, around 350 Iso each at the current percentages. My math says 360, actually, but I think they are rounding the 4*s badly so it's artificially inflated. I'm going to call it 350.

3* covers are worth 500 - you can say they're worth a little more as Champion levels, but until you get the 3* high enough they average out to exactly 500 (two levels of 500, one level of 1000, one level of something else,) so for most of us they're worth 500. Unless, of course, you need them for that particular 3*, in which case I'd say they're worth... well potentially a lot more.

So factoring these two things, that's another 3250 you're getting back (on average, but if you do this as a cycle, you will average out.) So I would call the actual cost is 4,529 Iso with the extras being potentially covers for your characters (5 random chances, 3 set covers for a particular 3*,) the HP, and the CP.

I'd say if you have the characters leveled already, it's well worth once you get enough covers to make them useful in PVE - just roll the Iso right into the new version and you're only down 7ish K (less than a half day's worth, on average.) If you don't, it could still be worth it if you have the 3* championed, or need the covers for them - 75K only represents a few days worth in general.

Chipster22

GrimSkald wrote:

Similarly, the CP are impossible to quantify as ISO, in this case literally as there is no way to convert them at all.

20 CP will buy a classic Legendary token which will get you at least a 4* which could be sold for 1000 ISO. So if you really, really wanted to you could say 5 CP could buy 250 ISO.

BTW: Has anyone done the math for farming 3*'s? The time required to do so would probably be prohibitive, but it would be interesting to see some numbers.

Quebbster

Warbringa wrote:

Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month.

That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary.

One thing to keep in mind is that two-star covers are significantly easier to get in three-star and fourstar land. It's a lot easier to play PvP and Lightning rounds in particularly and get two-star covers that way.
I championed my Bag-man this weekend and I happened to have ten covers in my queue that I've gotten from PvP drops the last two weeks... The other characters are easier to get, so having fifteen covers in queue shouldn't be a problem.

udonomefoo

I was trying to work out the logistics of the least annoying way to do this and here is my "farming" method for now:

Opened one extra slot Add whichever 2* has most covers in queue. For me it was Storm with 6 covers. Once she has 13 covers, sell the max champ and immediately champ new one. Now I have an open slot to do it with whoever has the most covers next.

I'm surely making this more complicated than it needs to be compared to "just sell it and roster the new one", but I'm a little neurotic about organization and I don't want to have that iso on hand to spend or I will spend it.

GrimSkald

Chipster22 wrote:

GrimSkald wrote:

Similarly, the CP are impossible to quantify as ISO, in this case literally as there is no way to convert them at all.

20 CP will buy a classic Legendary token which will get you at least a 4* which could be sold for 1000 ISO. So if you really, really wanted to you could say 5 CP could buy 250 ISO.

BTW: Has anyone done the math for farming 3*'s? The time required to do so would probably be prohibitive, but it would be interesting to see some numbers.

Considering that we're, what, five months into the Champions system and most of us don't have a 3* more than 25% maxxed, I suspect having your 3*s at higher levels outweighs getting the benefits from them all over again. Ask me again in a year or two.

TxMoose

udonomefoo wrote:

I was trying to work out the logistics of the least annoying way to do this and here is my "farming" method for now:

Opened one extra slot Add whichever 2* has most covers in queue. For me it was Storm with 6 covers. Once she has 13 covers, sell the max champ and immediately champ new one. Now I have an open slot to do it with whoever has the most covers next.

I'm surely making this more complicated than it needs to be compared to "just sell it and roster the new one", but I'm a little neurotic about organization and I don't want to have that iso on hand to spend or I will spend it.

my next planned step is champing the rest of my 3s and then rostering and champing the rest of the 2*s. once I do that I plan on having a few slots for building cyclers. i'll only be cycling ones who end up feeding current champed 4*s, but there are several of those. once I have all the 2*s rostered and champed it won't matter as much, but with only a few, I'd be hesitant to just sell willy nilly withouth having one at least started already. you're not alone there.

MissChinch

Warbringa wrote:

Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month.

That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary.

Something to keep in mind, you don't get to just elect to receive one specific characters cover, so you're essentially working on all 14 (or 13 if you remove bagman) in parallel... Even if you went at your pace of 4-5 months, you average that out:

13(5 heroic tokens, 3 guaranteed 3* covers, 5CP and 375HC)

comes out to:
65 heroic tokens, 39 3* covers, 65CP and 4875 HC

which taken per month equates to:
13 to 16.25 heroic tokens,
7.8 to 9.75 3* covers,
13 to 16.25 CP and
975 to 1218.75 HC
per month, using the timeframe you stated in your post...

So even moving at that speed, it would be nice to know that just by championing and selling 2*s you could keep up with the game releasing a new character per month without worrying about new slots... and get a better than a heroic 10 pack to boot, not to mention the 3* covers and CP...

I'd say its worth serious consideration even if you take 4-5 months to max one out (which at the rate 2*s roll in seems extremely casual if you're already in the 3* range, and really quite slow even starting from scratch) but then again I'm a hoarder and don't like having covers for new characters I have to sell because I don't have slots to roster em...

Rodolfo78

Warbringa wrote:

It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer).

Just as a point of reference, I have amassed 35 2* covers since I stopped selling them (3days 18hrs ago, based on the expiration date of the oldest). I'll play some tonight, and I expect to get perhaps 5 more, so let's call it 10 per day. I may be a little above average in terms of pace of acquisition since I buy daily deals, but my current pace has been over days without LRs, so maybe it's representative.

It'll be interesting to see how steady state works out. I currently have all non-Bagman 2* maxchamped, so I'm saving any and all covers, and will sell/rebuild as soon as I have 13 of a given character. It'll obviously slow down after that, since I'll need to get 50 more before repeating, but I expect to be selling a 2* maxchamp pretty often once it smooths out. The small ISO tax is worth it to me- the HP flow from events and recycling will let me both buy daily deals and pay the occasional roster tax without sinking more money in, and the tokens/CP are a small bonus.

Admittedly, the calculus gets more interesting if you don't currently have the whole set of 2* champed. Then you're talking about a big up-front investment for the chance to set this up.

Breadsticks

This wouldn't be such a problem if the lazy or corresponding characters were able to be used in essential nodes no matter what star level they were. Selling the likes of 2* daken, Thor, torch, mags wouldn't hurt as much.

This should be the dynamic but it isn't. Selling my 2* while still being at the beginning of the 3* transition hurts too much. Even if I were moving into four, losing essential node characters isn't wise. If they ditched essential nodes or at least made same name characters useable on a node this would be a no brainer.

This doesn't even take into account the fine lost leveling.

And while the daily ISO bump is nice, connecting to the alliance is ludicrous. Players shouldn't be forced into alliances or constant alliance hunting to obtain a resource that's necessary to play the game.

STOPTHIS

udonomefoo wrote:

I was trying to work out the logistics of the least annoying way to do this and here is my "farming" method for now:

Opened one extra slot Add whichever 2* has most covers in queue. For me it was Storm with 6 covers. Once she has 13 covers, sell the max champ and immediately champ new one. Now I have an open slot to do it with whoever has the most covers next.

I'm surely making this more complicated than it needs to be compared to "just sell it and roster the new one", but I'm a little neurotic about organization and I don't want to have that iso on hand to spend or I will spend it.

This is exactly what I'm doing right now. Only difference is I opened up 3 slots for farming 2*s. Currently, I have 5 covers on Hawkeye and Wolverine, and a 2 covers on Thor.

j0nats

My thoughts on this.... i sold my ares to finish the final few levels and champion my Iceman.

Pro: i am now able to use my iceman instead of waitin 1or 2 weeks.

Con: Now, i immediately feel someone missing from my ddq team. used to be ares storm n mmags, now is obw storm n mmags which is a tad slower.

Another con is i dont feel like champing ares again since other toons need the iso.

So m thinkin i shudve waited a few weeks rather than bit the bullet and sold the 2* champ, because of the time investment to re-champ, which could be better used to level others

In summary: sell ur 2* champ only if u dont plan to use them again anytime soon.

broll

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

The issue with doing the math this way is it makes it seem like if you did it infinitely, you'd run out of iso. You won't.

As others have pointed out, it's a loss compared to just selling the covers rather than championing, but farming itself is a net positive. Everytime you build and max a champion, it's worth 7971 iso + the other stuff.

It's your decision whether you want the most iso (just selling the covers), or a lesser amount of iso plus other things.

The math is based on the opportunity cost of selling the covers. I also would think this is worst case math, as many people have said it's possible the 3* covers could net you a nice champion reward, but that makes it very hard to outline this way.

I find this very helpful as I've been struggling with whether or not I should continue to sell tons of 2* covers or start championing more than the 5 I currently have championed. Ultimately as I'm early in my 3* transition I've decided to start championing more of them focusing on ones that provide the best 3* covers. I made that decision a few days before they swapped out the rewards, the improved rewards make me feel even better that I made the right decisions. Thanks devs!

broll

j0nats wrote:

My thoughts on this.... i sold my ares to finish the final few levels and champion my Iceman.

Pro: i am now able to use my iceman instead of waitin 1or 2 weeks.

Con: Now, i immediately feel someone missing from my ddq team. used to be ares storm n mmags, now is obw storm n mmags which is a tad slower.

Another con is i dont feel like champing ares again since other toons need the iso.

So m thinkin i shudve waited a few weeks rather than bit the bullet and sold the 2* champ, because of the time investment to re-champ, which could be better used to level others

In summary: sell ur 2* champ only if u dont plan to use them again anytime soon.

My longterm plan is to refunnel the ISO gain into re-championing. So let's say I want to work on getting more 3* Magneto covers.
1. I work on championing 2* Magneto.
2 I max champion Magneto getting all his champion rewards.
3. I use my next cover to create a duplicate 2* Magneto.
4. I continue using covers for this duplicate 2* Magneto until I reach 13.
5. Now I sell my max champion and recycle 100% of that ISO into getting the new 2* up to 94 and championing.
6. Assuming I have another 2* max championed that I want 3* covers from, I rinse and repeat using this extra slot until I get to a point where the 3* covers and/or other rewards aren't worth it any more.

Polares

Quebbster wrote:

Warbringa wrote:

Being a finance guy I can talk with some knowledge on this.....unless you have hoards of iso to waste and get way, way more 2* than the average casual player (me)....this is a terrible investment due to time value of iso (money). It will probably take the average player several months to get enough covers to champion a 2* from scratch (took me 4-5 months to max out my 2* characters and maybe even longer). Those rewards are a paltry return for months of investment. That iso would be better off going to improve your roster now. The exception would be someone who has so much iso they can afford to drop 70,000+ on a low return, longer term investment and earns so many 2* covers that they feel confident that they can max out a 2* champion in around a month.

That all being said, it is still an upgrade from what we had before so I am slightly thankful but I will not be utilizing it for farming as I need that iso for far too many more important things at the moment. It does give one other advantage though, if you need to come up with iso fast to max a 4* etc. you now have a much less painful way of raising a good store of iso if necessary.

One thing to keep in mind is that two-star covers are significantly easier to get in three-star and fourstar land. It's a lot easier to play PvP and Lightning rounds in particularly and get two-star covers that way.
I championed my Bag-man this weekend and I happened to have ten covers in my queue that I've gotten from PvP drops the last two weeks... The other characters are easier to get, so having fifteen covers in queue shouldn't be a problem.

This is a really BAD investment for anyone in 4 to 5 land. You are wasting precious iso in champing and leveling 2s to get rewards you don't need (3s and HP ?!?!?). The only thing worth getting is the 5CPs, but the iso you lose is much important for this very small amount of CPs

The iso you are using for 2s can be used to champ 4s, which is basically what a 4 user should be doing. Even champing the meh to bad 3s is a very bad investment. You may recover some of the iso later on, but that iso can be used NOW for leveling 4s and 5s. And the rewards for champed 4s are much better. I have champed some 3s I never use just to get the LT and that was a really bad decision.