Phaserhawk wrote: simonsez wrote: Can someone explain this synergy to me? Venom's passive just means Carnage suicides you faster. Where is Venom helping? The only reason the PvE nodes are a pain is because they're lv300+ and have a goon generating red and green and/or making strike tiles. They are fast and mean and great shield hopping. PvE they are not, this is pure PvP synergy. What people are not seeing yet, but I was with my friends simulator was how much AP you are generating from cascades off of Venom's green. It doesn't take much to get enemy tiles out with Carnage you can easily get 6 in no time to cheapen it fully any more and you get bigger cascades.. While not fun, you are only taking an extra 18 dmg per Carnage tile that you weren't before if you have Venom 5/3/5. Between Carnage's red and Venom's yellow. Not taken Carnage's AoE into factor you are averaging 640 dmg per AP per single target with that duo. That's the highest in game other than 5*'s. But the synergy is simple. Carnage passive creates loads of special tiles that cheapens Venom's green that increases it's tile destruction which increases cascades which gives you free AP which allows you to fire out lots of dmg. The trade off, you take a lot of dmg in return.
simonsez wrote: Can someone explain this synergy to me? Venom's passive just means Carnage suicides you faster. Where is Venom helping? The only reason the PvE nodes are a pain is because they're lv300+ and have a goon generating red and green and/or making strike tiles.
Crowl wrote: Isn't the synergy from carnage's passive reducing the cost of the venom's green so you have 3 cheap nukes in different colours even without the huge boost from the goon?
Phaserhawk wrote: Not taken Carnage's AoE into factor you are averaging 640 dmg per AP per single target with that duo. That's the highest in game other than 5*'s.
simonsez wrote: Phaserhawk wrote: Not taken Carnage's AoE into factor you are averaging 640 dmg per AP per single target with that duo. That's the highest in game other than 5*'s. Wait, what? Iceman's blue does more. On average, XDP's purple will do more. KP's black does way more (having to hold it for a CD to exist isn't much of a constraint). On average, surgical strike will do more. Hell, even Falcrap's yellow/red combo does more than 640 per AP. And none of these will kill you at the same time.
Sandwichboy wrote: Miles and Ghost Rider are fine. Both are solid mid tier characters that can really shine under the right circumstances, but still work without them. Chulk and Venom are just...misguided design. Sure venom works great with Carnage, but he is NEVER going to be a sustainable pvp character no matter who he's paired with, so that's not much to work with. Kind of looks like Doc Ock to me; against the right opposing team build he'll be a beast, but anything else he's dead weight.
Phaserhawk wrote: You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages.
simonsez wrote: Phaserhawk wrote: You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages. Ok, I get what you're saying now, but it's still not a valid comparison. Because of Carnage/Venom's color overlap and passives, you're only looking at 3 colors. If you only look at 3 colors (red/black/purple) for the XF duo, their numbers blow them away without XF green dragging things down.
Cyclopes wrote: Sandwichboy wrote: Miles and Ghost Rider are fine. Both are solid mid tier characters that can really shine under the right circumstances, but still work without them. Chulk and Venom are just...misguided design. Sure venom works great with Carnage, but he is NEVER going to be a sustainable pvp character no matter who he's paired with, so that's not much to work with. Kind of looks like Doc Ock to me; against the right opposing team build he'll be a beast, but anything else he's dead weight. I mean I can understand why chulk is bad. He doesn't seem to do anything at all. At least with venom you have a yellow nuke and a cascade. Sure it's up against the right team but I honestly think people are overvaluing the strength of attack tiles. The only person that you have to worry about them with consistently is freaking iron fist. The solution, don't play venom against iron fist. I realise other characters have attack tiles. I'm just saying, they aren't passives that get activated every turn and even when most of them come out, they don't do a lot of damage. Who's the top tier attack tile characters to worry about? Iron fist, jean, blade given the right circumstances. Who else? You got torch, storm, psylocke and others who provide attack tiles but none of them are that scary. He's a lot less situational than ock from what I can see because people are just straight overvaluing attack tiles. In most matches, this character might not even have an ability. Which is a flaw sure. But I wouldn't go as far as to say this character is chulk or ock levels. I'd actually keep this character and use him. Chulk and ock, much like iw and mr. F are sells for me
Phaserhawk wrote: simonsez wrote: Phaserhawk wrote: You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages. Ok, I get what you're saying now, but it's still not a valid comparison. Because of Carnage/Venom's color overlap and passives, you're only looking at 3 colors. If you only look at 3 colors (red/black/purple) for the XF duo, their numbers blow them away without XF green dragging things down. I just looked at the direct dmg skills, if any overlapped in color, I went with the better AP one, and yes X-Force drags the that duo down. But when you also look that Carnage and Venom can do this for 7,7, and 9 vs. 8, 11, 13, and 7, not only is it solid dmg but easily the cheaper AP in all of them. That's the thing, even if another duo can out due their combined damage, will they be able to do it as quickly? Especially with boosts, you are eating Carnage's red second turn, but venom's green is much better than the numbers show, as people will see the cascading that this can cause is insane. I mean it's like a mini Juggernaut Green.
Phaserhawk wrote: You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages. so taking into account the green and yellow of venom plus carnage's red they total to be about 640 per AP. I'm talking about a combined duo, not one individual skill, because if you do Carnage has the best total dmg skill with this red at 7AP. X-Force/Deadpool is ----Out of Bullets 590 per AP, Xforce 248 per AP, Surgical Strike/CD for What(assuming 9 tiles of one color) =894 AP 894+590+248 = 577 per AP average dmg So yes, Carnage/Venom have the singlemost single target best AP to dmg ratio in the game
simonsez wrote: Does anyone have a compelling argument against going 5/0/5? "Black3 doesn't hurt that much" isn't one, since I don't see it helping at all either.
bpcontra wrote: Pair up Carnage and Venom with Ant Man with 5 Blue and you are stealing 3 enemy special tiles every round. Also rounds out the colors.
eidehua wrote: bpcontra wrote: Pair up Carnage and Venom with Ant Man with 5 Blue and you are stealing 3 enemy special tiles every round. Also rounds out the colors. Except Venom wants enemy special tiles for cheap green, so stealing them isn't that interesting. Plus you are stealing fairly weak attack or protect tiles.
Sandwichboy wrote: Cyclopes wrote: Sandwichboy wrote: Miles and Ghost Rider are fine. Both are solid mid tier characters that can really shine under the right circumstances, but still work without them. Chulk and Venom are just...misguided design. Sure venom works great with Carnage, but he is NEVER going to be a sustainable pvp character no matter who he's paired with, so that's not much to work with. Kind of looks like Doc Ock to me; against the right opposing team build he'll be a beast, but anything else he's dead weight. I mean I can understand why chulk is bad. He doesn't seem to do anything at all. At least with venom you have a yellow nuke and a cascade. Sure it's up against the right team but I honestly think people are overvaluing the strength of attack tiles. The only person that you have to worry about them with consistently is freaking iron fist. The solution, don't play venom against iron fist. I realise other characters have attack tiles. I'm just saying, they aren't passives that get activated every turn and even when most of them come out, they don't do a lot of damage. Who's the top tier attack tile characters to worry about? Iron fist, jean, blade given the right circumstances. Who else? You got torch, storm, psylocke and others who provide attack tiles but none of them are that scary. He's a lot less situational than ock from what I can see because people are just straight overvaluing attack tiles. In most matches, this character might not even have an ability. Which is a flaw sure. But I wouldn't go as far as to say this character is chulk or ock levels. I'd actually keep this character and use him. Chulk and ock, much like iw and mr. F are sells for me Let me be clear, I actually really like Doc Ock, but he is a very inconsistent character. If you're up against a team that puts out zero special tiles, or you don't have a way to GIVE them special tiles, he's almost useless. But against someone like Carnage he is amazing. Venom seems to be just a bigger version of that. With Carnage as a partner he'll allow for some great speedy shield hop matches, but unless you (like Doc Ock) are facing a team that's all about special tiles galore, he's vastly outshone by a lot of 4*s as a heavy, and even some 3*s as a partner for someone other than carnage. He's not BAD, he's just nowhere near being a sustainable pvp character, or the backbone of anyone's roster. ...it also doesn't help that that black power is probably even less helpful than Chulk's.
Cyclopes wrote: But I don't think he's as bad as people are trying to make him out to be. But then again I don't see the problem with falcap and everyone seems to hate him here.
simonsez wrote: Cyclopes wrote: But I don't think he's as bad as people are trying to make him out to be. But then again I don't see the problem with falcap and everyone seems to hate him here. when paired with Carnage in PvE, is actually hilariously useful.
Cyclopes wrote: Sandwichboy wrote: Cyclopes wrote: Sandwichboy wrote: Miles and Ghost Rider are fine. Both are solid mid tier characters that can really shine under the right circumstances, but still work without them. Chulk and Venom are just...misguided design. Sure venom works great with Carnage, but he is NEVER going to be a sustainable pvp character no matter who he's paired with, so that's not much to work with. Kind of looks like Doc Ock to me; against the right opposing team build he'll be a beast, but anything else he's dead weight. I mean I can understand why chulk is bad. He doesn't seem to do anything at all. At least with venom you have a yellow nuke and a cascade. Sure it's up against the right team but I honestly think people are overvaluing the strength of attack tiles. The only person that you have to worry about them with consistently is freaking iron fist. The solution, don't play venom against iron fist. I realise other characters have attack tiles. I'm just saying, they aren't passives that get activated every turn and even when most of them come out, they don't do a lot of damage. Who's the top tier attack tile characters to worry about? Iron fist, jean, blade given the right circumstances. Who else? You got torch, storm, psylocke and others who provide attack tiles but none of them are that scary. He's a lot less situational than ock from what I can see because people are just straight overvaluing attack tiles. In most matches, this character might not even have an ability. Which is a flaw sure. But I wouldn't go as far as to say this character is chulk or ock levels. I'd actually keep this character and use him. Chulk and ock, much like iw and mr. F are sells for me Let me be clear, I actually really like Doc Ock, but he is a very inconsistent character. If you're up against a team that puts out zero special tiles, or you don't have a way to GIVE them special tiles, he's almost useless. But against someone like Carnage he is amazing. Venom seems to be just a bigger version of that. With Carnage as a partner he'll allow for some great speedy shield hop matches, but unless you (like Doc Ock) are facing a team that's all about special tiles galore, he's vastly outshone by a lot of 4*s as a heavy, and even some 3*s as a partner for someone other than carnage. He's not BAD, he's just nowhere near being a sustainable pvp character, or the backbone of anyone's roster. ...it also doesn't help that that black power is probably even less helpful than Chulk's. I mean I guess. My main issue is that a lot of people are complaining about the black and honestly both the yellow, green, and his health pool are awesome moves. Sure the green does only 3k damage but it also has cascade potential and the chance to be really cheap. Against the right team. Meaning to me it's pretty easy to set up. And then there is his yellow which is a pretty decent cost for a nuke. But comparing it to a character in a game I play way more than I should, he shouldn't play like he's missing a part of his kit and that's largely what his black is in most matches. It does nothing, or it hurts you. So in that aspect, I can understand. But I don't think he's as bad as people are trying to make him out to be. But then again I don't see the problem with falcap and everyone seems to hate him here.