**** Venom (Eddie Brock) ****

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  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,461 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    Can someone explain this synergy to me? Venom's passive just means Carnage suicides you faster. Where is Venom helping? The only reason the PvE nodes are a pain is because they're lv300+ and have a goon generating red and green and/or making strike tiles.

    They are fast and mean and great shield hopping. PvE they are not, this is pure PvP synergy. What people are not seeing yet, but I was with my friends simulator was how much AP you are generating from cascades off of Venom's green. It doesn't take much to get enemy tiles out with Carnage you can easily get 6 in no time to cheapen it fully any more and you get bigger cascades.. While not fun, you are only taking an extra 18 dmg per Carnage tile that you weren't before if you have Venom 5/3/5. Between Carnage's red and Venom's yellow. Not taken Carnage's AoE into factor you are averaging 640 dmg per AP per single target with that duo. That's the highest in game other than 5*'s.

    But the synergy is simple. Carnage passive creates loads of special tiles that cheapens Venom's green that increases it's tile destruction which increases cascades which gives you free AP which allows you to fire out lots of dmg. The trade off, you take a lot of dmg in return.

    What is the average amount of free ap you get from cascades? Based on the sims. It will be interesting to know
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Crowl wrote:
    Isn't the synergy from carnage's passive reducing the cost of the venom's green so you have 3 cheap nukes in different colours even without the huge boost from the goon?
    Even at it's min cost, 3300 damage for 7AP isn't much of a nuke. As others are saying, AP generation is the question.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    Not taken Carnage's AoE into factor you are averaging 640 dmg per AP per single target with that duo. That's the highest in game other than 5*'s.
    Wait, what? Iceman's blue does more. On average, XDP's purple will do more. KP's black does way more (having to hold it for a CD to exist isn't much of a constraint). On average, surgical strike will do more. Hell, even Falcrap's yellow/red combo does more than 640 per AP. And none of these will kill you at the same time.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    Not taken Carnage's AoE into factor you are averaging 640 dmg per AP per single target with that duo. That's the highest in game other than 5*'s.
    Wait, what? Iceman's blue does more. On average, XDP's purple will do more. KP's black does way more (having to hold it for a CD to exist isn't much of a constraint). On average, surgical strike will do more. Hell, even Falcrap's yellow/red combo does more than 640 per AP. And none of these will kill you at the same time.

    You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages. so taking into account the green and yellow of venom plus carnage's red they total to be about 640 per AP.

    I'm talking about a combined duo, not one individual skill, because if you do Carnage has the best total dmg skill with this red at 7AP.

    X-Force/Deadpool is ----Out of Bullets 590 per AP, Xforce 248 per AP, Surgical Strike/CD for What(assuming 9 tiles of one color) =894 AP

    894+590+248 = 577 per AP average dmg

    So yes, Carnage/Venom have the singlemost single target best AP to dmg ratio in the game
  • Miles and Ghost Rider are fine. Both are solid mid tier characters that can really shine under the right circumstances, but still work without them. Chulk and Venom are just...misguided design. Sure venom works great with Carnage, but he is NEVER going to be a sustainable pvp character no matter who he's paired with, so that's not much to work with. Kind of looks like Doc Ock to me; against the right opposing team build he'll be a beast, but anything else he's dead weight.

    I mean I can understand why chulk is bad. He doesn't seem to do anything at all. At least with venom you have a yellow nuke and a cascade. Sure it's up against the right team but I honestly think people are overvaluing the strength of attack tiles. The only person that you have to worry about them with consistently is freaking iron fist. The solution, don't play venom against iron fist.

    I realise other characters have attack tiles. I'm just saying, they aren't passives that get activated every turn and even when most of them come out, they don't do a lot of damage. Who's the top tier attack tile characters to worry about? Iron fist, jean, blade given the right circumstances. Who else? You got torch, storm, psylocke and others who provide attack tiles but none of them are that scary.

    He's a lot less situational than ock from what I can see because people are just straight overvaluing attack tiles. In most matches, this character might not even have an ability. Which is a flaw sure. But I wouldn't go as far as to say this character is chulk or ock levels. I'd actually keep this character and use him. Chulk and ock, much like iw and mr. F are sells for me
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages.
    Ok, I get what you're saying now, but it's still not a valid comparison. Because of Carnage/Venom's color overlap and passives, you're only looking at 3 colors. If you only look at 3 colors (red/black/purple) for the XF duo, their numbers blow them away without XF green dragging things down.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages.
    Ok, I get what you're saying now, but it's still not a valid comparison. Because of Carnage/Venom's color overlap and passives, you're only looking at 3 colors. If you only look at 3 colors (red/black/purple) for the XF duo, their numbers blow them away without XF green dragging things down.

    I just looked at the direct dmg skills, if any overlapped in color, I went with the better AP one, and yes X-Force drags the that duo down. But when you also look that Carnage and Venom can do this for 7,7, and 9 vs. 8, 11, 13, and 7, not only is it solid dmg but easily the cheaper AP in all of them. That's the thing, even if another duo can out due their combined damage, will they be able to do it as quickly? Especially with boosts, you are eating Carnage's red second turn, but venom's green is much better than the numbers show, as people will see the cascading that this can cause is insane. I mean it's like a mini Juggernaut Green.
  • SandwichboySandwichboy Age Unconfirmed Posts: 193 Tile Toppler
    Cyclopes wrote:
    Miles and Ghost Rider are fine. Both are solid mid tier characters that can really shine under the right circumstances, but still work without them. Chulk and Venom are just...misguided design. Sure venom works great with Carnage, but he is NEVER going to be a sustainable pvp character no matter who he's paired with, so that's not much to work with. Kind of looks like Doc Ock to me; against the right opposing team build he'll be a beast, but anything else he's dead weight.

    I mean I can understand why chulk is bad. He doesn't seem to do anything at all. At least with venom you have a yellow nuke and a cascade. Sure it's up against the right team but I honestly think people are overvaluing the strength of attack tiles. The only person that you have to worry about them with consistently is freaking iron fist. The solution, don't play venom against iron fist.

    I realise other characters have attack tiles. I'm just saying, they aren't passives that get activated every turn and even when most of them come out, they don't do a lot of damage. Who's the top tier attack tile characters to worry about? Iron fist, jean, blade given the right circumstances. Who else? You got torch, storm, psylocke and others who provide attack tiles but none of them are that scary.

    He's a lot less situational than ock from what I can see because people are just straight overvaluing attack tiles. In most matches, this character might not even have an ability. Which is a flaw sure. But I wouldn't go as far as to say this character is chulk or ock levels. I'd actually keep this character and use him. Chulk and ock, much like iw and mr. F are sells for me

    Let me be clear, I actually really like Doc Ock, but he is a very inconsistent character. If you're up against a team that puts out zero special tiles, or you don't have a way to GIVE them special tiles, he's almost useless. But against someone like Carnage he is amazing. Venom seems to be just a bigger version of that. With Carnage as a partner he'll allow for some great speedy shield hop matches, but unless you (like Doc Ock) are facing a team that's all about special tiles galore, he's vastly outshone by a lot of 4*s as a heavy, and even some 3*s as a partner for someone other than carnage. He's not BAD, he's just nowhere near being a sustainable pvp character, or the backbone of anyone's roster.


    ...it also doesn't help that that black power is probably even less helpful than Chulk's.
  • LoftusLoftus Age Unconfirmed Posts: 79 Match Maker
    Really surprised by the negativity towards this character, ignoring the fact that he looks really cool, he's real tough. Deals damage fast and can mess up a board, i'm definitely looking to get more covers and use him regularly. I have to admit on paper i felt like he was going to be pretty weak, but after fighting him in the pve event and now having him for myself i'm definitely a fan.
  • RuinateRuinate Posts: 505 Critical Contributor
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages.
    Ok, I get what you're saying now, but it's still not a valid comparison. Because of Carnage/Venom's color overlap and passives, you're only looking at 3 colors. If you only look at 3 colors (red/black/purple) for the XF duo, their numbers blow them away without XF green dragging things down.

    I just looked at the direct dmg skills, if any overlapped in color, I went with the better AP one, and yes X-Force drags the that duo down. But when you also look that Carnage and Venom can do this for 7,7, and 9 vs. 8, 11, 13, and 7, not only is it solid dmg but easily the cheaper AP in all of them. That's the thing, even if another duo can out due their combined damage, will they be able to do it as quickly? Especially with boosts, you are eating Carnage's red second turn, but venom's green is much better than the numbers show, as people will see the cascading that this can cause is insane. I mean it's like a mini Juggernaut Green.


    You never say where the enemy special tiles are coming from. Unless you're planning on eating an ability just to get some tiles out, you'd have to spawn them yourself. Lethal Protector x2 or Lethal Protector + Scythes. Even then it's only 6 or 8 tiles and I don't see a big cascade happening that often. With 7+7+11, HB/Carnage can wipe an entire team and be done.
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    You misunderstand me, I'm referring to their Averages. so taking into account the green and yellow of venom plus carnage's red they total to be about 640 per AP.

    I'm talking about a combined duo, not one individual skill, because if you do Carnage has the best total dmg skill with this red at 7AP.

    X-Force/Deadpool is ----Out of Bullets 590 per AP, Xforce 248 per AP, Surgical Strike/CD for What(assuming 9 tiles of one color) =894 AP

    894+590+248 = 577 per AP average dmg

    So yes, Carnage/Venom have the singlemost single target best AP to dmg ratio in the game
    Using only the decent powers, sorry if I'm missing anything:

    OoB is 7600 for 13ap, CfW is 13500 for 7ap with the average 9 tiles, Surgical is 7k for 11ap with same 9 tiles. That's 28100 damage for 31 ap, so 900ish ratio.

    If you gonna count wxf green and yellow, which you shouldn't, you must also take into account both venom and carnage green, and not discard due to color overlap. Plus the ap used to spawn the attack tiles from carnage.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Does anyone have a compelling argument against going 5/0/5? "Black3 doesn't hurt that much" isn't one, since I don't see it helping at all either.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    Does anyone have a compelling argument against going 5/0/5? "Black3 doesn't hurt that much" isn't one, since I don't see it helping at all either.

    Obviously losing out on max damage and health but no.

    Essentially a 5/0/5 is almost as good skill wise as a 5/5/5. Therein lies some of the problem with Venom. To keep in line with the flavor of give and take I say he should decrease your own attack tiles, but boost your own protect tiles. That way Venom is dependent upon who you are playing, not the enemy team. I would prefer decrease your own protect and increase attack but that would be too strong.

    Then the more you level black it would lower the reduction of your own attack tiles and increase of protect. This to me is perfect. You get stronger protect, you have attack taken. Which would also match the flavor of venom trying to control carnage when you play them together.
  • bpcontrabpcontra Age Unconfirmed Posts: 176
    Pair up Carnage and Venom with Ant Man with 5 Blue and you are stealing 3 enemy special tiles every round. Also rounds out the colors.
  • eidehuaeidehua Age Unconfirmed Posts: 521 Critical Contributor
    bpcontra wrote:
    Pair up Carnage and Venom with Ant Man with 5 Blue and you are stealing 3 enemy special tiles every round. Also rounds out the colors.
    Except Venom wants enemy special tiles for cheap green, so stealing them isn't that interesting. Plus you are stealing fairly weak attack or protect tiles.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    eidehua wrote:
    bpcontra wrote:
    Pair up Carnage and Venom with Ant Man with 5 Blue and you are stealing 3 enemy special tiles every round. Also rounds out the colors.
    Except Venom wants enemy special tiles for cheap green, so stealing them isn't that interesting. Plus you are stealing fairly weak attack or protect tiles.
    ... and anyone who's tried using antman with carnage has realized it works way better in theory...
  • Cyclopes wrote:
    Miles and Ghost Rider are fine. Both are solid mid tier characters that can really shine under the right circumstances, but still work without them. Chulk and Venom are just...misguided design. Sure venom works great with Carnage, but he is NEVER going to be a sustainable pvp character no matter who he's paired with, so that's not much to work with. Kind of looks like Doc Ock to me; against the right opposing team build he'll be a beast, but anything else he's dead weight.

    I mean I can understand why chulk is bad. He doesn't seem to do anything at all. At least with venom you have a yellow nuke and a cascade. Sure it's up against the right team but I honestly think people are overvaluing the strength of attack tiles. The only person that you have to worry about them with consistently is freaking iron fist. The solution, don't play venom against iron fist.

    I realise other characters have attack tiles. I'm just saying, they aren't passives that get activated every turn and even when most of them come out, they don't do a lot of damage. Who's the top tier attack tile characters to worry about? Iron fist, jean, blade given the right circumstances. Who else? You got torch, storm, psylocke and others who provide attack tiles but none of them are that scary.

    He's a lot less situational than ock from what I can see because people are just straight overvaluing attack tiles. In most matches, this character might not even have an ability. Which is a flaw sure. But I wouldn't go as far as to say this character is chulk or ock levels. I'd actually keep this character and use him. Chulk and ock, much like iw and mr. F are sells for me

    Let me be clear, I actually really like Doc Ock, but he is a very inconsistent character. If you're up against a team that puts out zero special tiles, or you don't have a way to GIVE them special tiles, he's almost useless. But against someone like Carnage he is amazing. Venom seems to be just a bigger version of that. With Carnage as a partner he'll allow for some great speedy shield hop matches, but unless you (like Doc Ock) are facing a team that's all about special tiles galore, he's vastly outshone by a lot of 4*s as a heavy, and even some 3*s as a partner for someone other than carnage. He's not BAD, he's just nowhere near being a sustainable pvp character, or the backbone of anyone's roster.


    ...it also doesn't help that that black power is probably even less helpful than Chulk's.
    I mean I guess. My main issue is that a lot of people are complaining about the black and honestly both the yellow, green, and his health pool are awesome moves. Sure the green does only 3k damage but it also has cascade potential and the chance to be really cheap. Against the right team. Meaning to me it's pretty easy to set up. And then there is his yellow which is a pretty decent cost for a nuke.

    But comparing it to a character in a game I play way more than I should, he shouldn't play like he's missing a part of his kit and that's largely what his black is in most matches. It does nothing, or it hurts you. So in that aspect, I can understand. But I don't think he's as bad as people are trying to make him out to be. But then again I don't see the problem with falcap and everyone seems to hate him here.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Cyclopes wrote:
    But I don't think he's as bad as people are trying to make him out to be. But then again I don't see the problem with falcap and everyone seems to hate him here.
    I think people are frustrated and puzzled that a lot of the recent 4*s come with an ability that is completely useless (eg Cho) or in this case, downright harmful.

    And a lot of the hate towards characters like Falcrap and MrTinykittystick have to do with how incredibly frustrating their DDQ4s were. The latter, when paired with Carnage in PvE, is actually hilariously useful.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    Cyclopes wrote:
    But I don't think he's as bad as people are trying to make him out to be. But then again I don't see the problem with falcap and everyone seems to hate him here.
    when paired with Carnage in PvE, is actually hilariously useful.

    Darn right it is. You can't kill Mr. Fantastic with Carnage.

    Btw I just realized why Venom feels so familiar.

    He's Juggernaut 2.0

    Both have green's that destroy the board for cheap, obviously Venom gets less tiles on average but way more damage.
    Yellow and Red are essentially the same, X damage for a draw back.

    The only difference is the black, since, well Juggs doesn't have a 3rd power.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Cyclopes wrote:
    Cyclopes wrote:
    Miles and Ghost Rider are fine. Both are solid mid tier characters that can really shine under the right circumstances, but still work without them. Chulk and Venom are just...misguided design. Sure venom works great with Carnage, but he is NEVER going to be a sustainable pvp character no matter who he's paired with, so that's not much to work with. Kind of looks like Doc Ock to me; against the right opposing team build he'll be a beast, but anything else he's dead weight.

    I mean I can understand why chulk is bad. He doesn't seem to do anything at all. At least with venom you have a yellow nuke and a cascade. Sure it's up against the right team but I honestly think people are overvaluing the strength of attack tiles. The only person that you have to worry about them with consistently is freaking iron fist. The solution, don't play venom against iron fist.

    I realise other characters have attack tiles. I'm just saying, they aren't passives that get activated every turn and even when most of them come out, they don't do a lot of damage. Who's the top tier attack tile characters to worry about? Iron fist, jean, blade given the right circumstances. Who else? You got torch, storm, psylocke and others who provide attack tiles but none of them are that scary.

    He's a lot less situational than ock from what I can see because people are just straight overvaluing attack tiles. In most matches, this character might not even have an ability. Which is a flaw sure. But I wouldn't go as far as to say this character is chulk or ock levels. I'd actually keep this character and use him. Chulk and ock, much like iw and mr. F are sells for me

    Let me be clear, I actually really like Doc Ock, but he is a very inconsistent character. If you're up against a team that puts out zero special tiles, or you don't have a way to GIVE them special tiles, he's almost useless. But against someone like Carnage he is amazing. Venom seems to be just a bigger version of that. With Carnage as a partner he'll allow for some great speedy shield hop matches, but unless you (like Doc Ock) are facing a team that's all about special tiles galore, he's vastly outshone by a lot of 4*s as a heavy, and even some 3*s as a partner for someone other than carnage. He's not BAD, he's just nowhere near being a sustainable pvp character, or the backbone of anyone's roster.


    ...it also doesn't help that that black power is probably even less helpful than Chulk's.
    I mean I guess. My main issue is that a lot of people are complaining about the black and honestly both the yellow, green, and his health pool are awesome moves. Sure the green does only 3k damage but it also has cascade potential and the chance to be really cheap. Against the right team. Meaning to me it's pretty easy to set up. And then there is his yellow which is a pretty decent cost for a nuke.

    But comparing it to a character in a game I play way more than I should, he shouldn't play like he's missing a part of his kit and that's largely what his black is in most matches. It does nothing, or it hurts you. So in that aspect, I can understand. But I don't think he's as bad as people are trying to make him out to be. But then again I don't see the problem with falcap and everyone seems to hate him here.

    To me the biggest issue with it is you can't control it. Doc Ock is a counter but can also be improved if you adjust your line up. But Venom's black you have no control. You can't adjust your lineup to make black work for you, only against you, that is the problem I have. I will say this until the planet explodes. DO THIS!!!!

    Level Upgrades
    Level 2: Your Protect tiles are increased by 30% and your Attack tiles are decreased by 20%.
    Level 3: Your Protect tiles are increased by 35% and your Attack tiles are decreased by 20%.
    Level 4: Your Protect tiles are increased by 45% and your Attack tiles are decreased by 10%.
    Level 5: Your Protect tiles are increased by 60% and your Attack tiles are decreased by 0%.

    Boom, fixed. Not game breaking, but actually gives you choices and build ideas. Give--you get protection increase, take you lose attack tile damage.

    Thank you.
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