mThor dillemma.

@DAZ0273 said:

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@KGB said:

@DAZ0273 said:
The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

The real problem is healthpacks when you are facing her. If they would just do away with health packs (ie you win the match, all characters healed to full even if some are down, you lose/retreat then all your characters are downed) then facing her would be no different than facing anyone else. The biggest issue is that her teams collect WAY more AP than normal teams do due to the increased cascades from her passives. That in turn leads to eating more power damage (plus the match damage from the cascades).

As Mr F stated above, he can win but most times it costs 2-3 health packs to go again. That's not fun nor sustainable. If it cost no health packs to win, then she'd just be a minor annoyance.

KGB

Health pack usage has been part of this game since they were introduced. Fighting Gritty teams cost health packs. Fighting iHulk teams cost health packs. Fighting Omega teams cost health packs. The game was never designed so that you can fight 20 fights with never losing health. Why was OML nerfed? Play PvP, EXPECT TO USE HEALTH PACKS.

Using health packs and using excessive health packs is 2 entirely different things. Excessive health pack usage was a source of frustration with Gritty just as it is with MThor. If the Devs truly want to increase player engagement with PvP they'd monitor excessive health pack usage characters and do something about it.

Also its 10 years in from when the game was released. Things that made sense then don't make sense now since the game has evolved.

KGB

@DAZ0273 said:

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@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Mr_F said:
The fact that somebody does not smell that something stinks does not it doesn't.

Or in MPQ words: I can and I do climb on mThor/SC. But the fact that I or anybody else can, does not mean they are not problematic. They are. You may not see that anymore cause you (and me) are past them. But believe me. They are.

I just did a quick check: how many of my 5* can that team easily defeat on defence (my ofense). 55+ So let say 50 - just maybe I did few mistakes here and there in my judgement.

Now... I do not see how any other combo I encounter can do that to my roster.

@BriMan2222
I'm talking about non boosted 5* situation. And ascension takes time. Even max min. It can not be answer to every 5* problem we have or will have.

The problem isn't her as much as the problem is sheep "follow the herd" mentality of the player base who play her (and Shang) regardless of who they have. This is not a new problem nor will ever go away. I honestly prefer this to the days of Gritty in SHIELD SIM. At least Jane is chaotic fun!

Ehhhh sorta. Some folks will always settle on the "best" team and run that in everything forever.

There's no rule that the best team has to be like 200 levels better than everybody else, though.

I think that might be a slight exaggeration...

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

But yeah, probably. The point stands, though. There will always be a best team, and a ton of players will always exclusively use the best team.

The issue is the gap between the best team and everybody else.

I don't have a 450 Jane to try so I can't verify either way but I'm pretty sure that just makes an easy retal anyway? We all get hit by cheesy teams, Polaris being one of the worst offenders. 3 Deadpool can cheese a win.

Uggggggggg what am I doing

The cheesy teams are really really terrible on defense and m'Thor isn't, at all.

@entrailbucket said:

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@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

With who? 450 Mthors are not beating my 672 teams trivially and I never beat them trivially when I had a 450. So much exaggeration in this thread, am I'm fully behind a thor nerf despite her being my 4th biggest character. Mainly for the other characters her mass tile removal makes almost useless.

450s beat my 672s, all the time.

How did I get sucked into another m'Thor thread? These never go anywhere or accomplish anything. Good luck, Mr F!

How do they even see you though? I mean if your 672 teams are so easy to beat please line me up! My Jane is only 501 but that will wipe the floor with you by the sounds of it!

I play at weird times in a weird slice.

I really, really don't want to talk about this anymore, but the issue is that she goes infinite really easily, while also doing a lot of damage.

I appreciate you don't want to talk about it but is Jane being paired with other 450 when she trivially thrashes you? Might it be a bit like certain punch up teams where there is an easy to beat partner teamed with a higher level character? Deathlok springs to mind. Not trying to be a numpty here, just trying to understand how this can happen? I know I always proper slam any cheese team that does me as long as the points are worth it!

@DAZ0273 said:

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@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

With who? 450 Mthors are not beating my 672 teams trivially and I never beat them trivially when I had a 450. So much exaggeration in this thread, am I'm fully behind a thor nerf despite her being my 4th biggest character. Mainly for the other characters her mass tile removal makes almost useless.

450s beat my 672s, all the time.

How did I get sucked into another m'Thor thread? These never go anywhere or accomplish anything. Good luck, Mr F!

How do they even see you though? I mean if your 672 teams are so easy to beat please line me up! My Jane is only 501 but that will wipe the floor with you by the sounds of it!

I play at weird times in a weird slice.

I really, really don't want to talk about this anymore, but the issue is that she goes infinite really easily, while also doing a lot of damage.

I appreciate you don't want to talk about it but is Jane being paired with other 450 when she trivially thrashes you? Might it be a bit like certain punch up teams where there is an easy to beat partner teamed with a higher level character? Deathlok springs to mind. Not trying to be a numpty here, just trying to understand how this can happen? I know I always proper slam any cheese team that does me as long as the points are worth it!

450 m'Thor/Shang-Chi is what I was referencing, but I see her in combination with a lower level boosted character quite a bit.

She's almost everyone's best partner, as long as they don't need to put stuff on the board (and occasionally if they do!). Massive AP generation, passive cascades, super cheap powers that chain...if you can get her to 6 red or blue there's a pretty good chance the enemy never gets another turn, which makes opponent health/damage/etc completely irrelevant.

Personally I hate BRB/Polaris teams as it means pretty much bringing Chasm to shut down and after his rebalance I wanted to be done with that boring git.

@JoeHandle said:

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@entrailbucket said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Yeah, I dunno. I can see how this would be a problem, but it's likely a problem that very few here have.

Personally, I beat m'Thor by having all the boosted characters at 672 and all the best supports, and instantly murdering her turn0 before she has a chance to do anything. So "just build your roster" works, but... I'd say that's a bit of a long term solution.

I bet many others in your position don't have this problem because m'Thor is their highest level character, they've got no desire to ever use anyone else, and she's pretty good in the mirror match.

I do reject the idea that Electro is a decent counter, or the sort of counter they should be making. Electro is great against Omega Red, and pretty bad against literally anybody else. The problem there is that Omega Red is great against everybody except Electro -- in a game where resources are limited, why should I invest in a character who's useful in only one situation over a character who's useful in every situation?

... because it's an extremely common situation ... a SIMtuation, in particular!

Why wouldn't you just mirror him or race him down, rather than bringing somebody who slows him down but brings basically nothing else to the table? Investing in Electro means you aren't investing in someone who can do either of those things.

You do mirror him ... with Electro by his side. Take near zero damage.

Electro is also a great partner for IM35, CapFA, Hotpool (kinda), and ... mThor ... anytime they are fighting any AoE, esp. repetitive, passive AoE.

Goose actually does the same thing but better!

Anyway I'd still rather load up on offense, especially in a pick-3 situation like Sim. Dragging Electro around means a dead slot (and yes, there are some guys that can do stuff with the yellow AP but then I'm bringing two guys I didn't want to bring).

@DAZ0273 said:

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@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

With who? 450 Mthors are not beating my 672 teams trivially and I never beat them trivially when I had a 450. So much exaggeration in this thread, am I'm fully behind a thor nerf despite her being my 4th biggest character. Mainly for the other characters her mass tile removal makes almost useless.

450s beat my 672s, all the time.

How did I get sucked into another m'Thor thread? These never go anywhere or accomplish anything. Good luck, Mr F!

How do they even see you though? I mean if your 672 teams are so easy to beat please line me up! My Jane is only 501 but that will wipe the floor with you by the sounds of it!

I play at weird times in a weird slice.

I really, really don't want to talk about this anymore, but the issue is that she goes infinite really easily, while also doing a lot of damage.

I appreciate you don't want to talk about it but is Jane being paired with other 450 when she trivially thrashes you? Might it be a bit like certain punch up teams where there is an easy to beat partner teamed with a higher level character? Deathlok springs to mind. Not trying to be a numpty here, just trying to understand how this can happen? I know I always proper slam any cheese team that does me as long as the points are worth it!

450 m'Thor/Shang-Chi is what I was referencing, but I see her in combination with a lower level boosted character quite a bit.

She's almost everyone's best partner, as long as they don't need to put stuff on the board (and occasionally if they do!). Massive AP generation, passive cascades, super cheap powers that chain...if you can get her to 6 red or blue there's a pretty good chance the enemy never gets another turn, which makes opponent health/damage/etc completely irrelevant.

Are they hitting you on retals? I imagine you probably have to hit a lot of these teams when you run out of targets? I suspect Shang Chi is the one doing the damage?

Sometimes. I do generally end up farming 5 pointers from 1k or so to 1200, and you'd be surprised how many 70 point retals I take from those guys. But they can also just find me and win normally.

I think he's helping, because she's an endless cascade generator and he gets insane match damage. But I don't think it's what's generally suggested, where folks are match-3 savants using him to puzzle-combo off infinitely. I do get beat by those guys too, but it takes them like half an hour per fight, and honestly I'll tip my hat to them!

@entrailbucket said:

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@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

With who? 450 Mthors are not beating my 672 teams trivially and I never beat them trivially when I had a 450. So much exaggeration in this thread, am I'm fully behind a thor nerf despite her being my 4th biggest character. Mainly for the other characters her mass tile removal makes almost useless.

450s beat my 672s, all the time.

How did I get sucked into another m'Thor thread? These never go anywhere or accomplish anything. Good luck, Mr F!

How do they even see you though? I mean if your 672 teams are so easy to beat please line me up! My Jane is only 501 but that will wipe the floor with you by the sounds of it!

I play at weird times in a weird slice.

I really, really don't want to talk about this anymore, but the issue is that she goes infinite really easily, while also doing a lot of damage.

I appreciate you don't want to talk about it but is Jane being paired with other 450 when she trivially thrashes you? Might it be a bit like certain punch up teams where there is an easy to beat partner teamed with a higher level character? Deathlok springs to mind. Not trying to be a numpty here, just trying to understand how this can happen? I know I always proper slam any cheese team that does me as long as the points are worth it!

450 m'Thor/Shang-Chi is what I was referencing, but I see her in combination with a lower level boosted character quite a bit.

She's almost everyone's best partner, as long as they don't need to put stuff on the board (and occasionally if they do!). Massive AP generation, passive cascades, super cheap powers that chain...if you can get her to 6 red or blue there's a pretty good chance the enemy never gets another turn, which makes opponent health/damage/etc completely irrelevant.

Are they hitting you on retals? I imagine you probably have to hit a lot of these teams when you run out of targets? I suspect Shang Chi is the one doing the damage?

Sometimes. I do generally end up farming 5 pointers from 1k or so to 1200, and you'd be surprised how many 70 point retals I take from those guys. But they can also just find me and win normally.

I think he's helping, because she's an endless cascade generator and he gets insane match damage. But I don't think it's what's generally suggested, where folks are match-3 savants using him to puzzle-combo off infinitely. I do get beat by those guys too, but it takes them like half an hour per fight, and honestly I'll tip my hat to them!

I genuinely think Shang is the one who punches up in this pairing. He is my highest character just through circumstances but his purple is ridiculous. Obviously Jane helps with her AP nonsense but Shang can beat anybody on offence and probably should have been nerfed ages ago. Like I said before, nerf cascades in PvP and that sorts Jane.

@DAZ0273 said:

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@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

With who? 450 Mthors are not beating my 672 teams trivially and I never beat them trivially when I had a 450. So much exaggeration in this thread, am I'm fully behind a thor nerf despite her being my 4th biggest character. Mainly for the other characters her mass tile removal makes almost useless.

450s beat my 672s, all the time.

How did I get sucked into another m'Thor thread? These never go anywhere or accomplish anything. Good luck, Mr F!

How do they even see you though? I mean if your 672 teams are so easy to beat please line me up! My Jane is only 501 but that will wipe the floor with you by the sounds of it!

I play at weird times in a weird slice.

I really, really don't want to talk about this anymore, but the issue is that she goes infinite really easily, while also doing a lot of damage.

I appreciate you don't want to talk about it but is Jane being paired with other 450 when she trivially thrashes you? Might it be a bit like certain punch up teams where there is an easy to beat partner teamed with a higher level character? Deathlok springs to mind. Not trying to be a numpty here, just trying to understand how this can happen? I know I always proper slam any cheese team that does me as long as the points are worth it!

450 m'Thor/Shang-Chi is what I was referencing, but I see her in combination with a lower level boosted character quite a bit.

She's almost everyone's best partner, as long as they don't need to put stuff on the board (and occasionally if they do!). Massive AP generation, passive cascades, super cheap powers that chain...if you can get her to 6 red or blue there's a pretty good chance the enemy never gets another turn, which makes opponent health/damage/etc completely irrelevant.

Are they hitting you on retals? I imagine you probably have to hit a lot of these teams when you run out of targets? I suspect Shang Chi is the one doing the damage?

Sometimes. I do generally end up farming 5 pointers from 1k or so to 1200, and you'd be surprised how many 70 point retals I take from those guys. But they can also just find me and win normally.

I think he's helping, because she's an endless cascade generator and he gets insane match damage. But I don't think it's what's generally suggested, where folks are match-3 savants using him to puzzle-combo off infinitely. I do get beat by those guys too, but it takes them like half an hour per fight, and honestly I'll tip my hat to them!

I genuinely think Shang is the one who punches up in this pairing. He is my highest character just through circumstances but his purple is ridiculous. Obviously Jane helps with her AP nonsense but Shang can beat anybody on offence and probably should have been nerfed ages ago. Like I said before, nerf cascades in PvP and that sorts Jane.

Oddly, I don't agree with this!

I've got zero problem with skillful players beating me (or anyone else) by using him to go infinite, manipulating the board. It requires some puzzley thinking, which generally takes awhile unless you're some kind of genius. You can't just randomly press buttons until you win, like you can with m'Thor.

@entrailbucket said:

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@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Tony_Foot said:

@entrailbucket said:

450 beats 672 pretty trivially!

With who? 450 Mthors are not beating my 672 teams trivially and I never beat them trivially when I had a 450. So much exaggeration in this thread, am I'm fully behind a thor nerf despite her being my 4th biggest character. Mainly for the other characters her mass tile removal makes almost useless.

450s beat my 672s, all the time.

How did I get sucked into another m'Thor thread? These never go anywhere or accomplish anything. Good luck, Mr F!

How do they even see you though? I mean if your 672 teams are so easy to beat please line me up! My Jane is only 501 but that will wipe the floor with you by the sounds of it!

I play at weird times in a weird slice.

I really, really don't want to talk about this anymore, but the issue is that she goes infinite really easily, while also doing a lot of damage.

I appreciate you don't want to talk about it but is Jane being paired with other 450 when she trivially thrashes you? Might it be a bit like certain punch up teams where there is an easy to beat partner teamed with a higher level character? Deathlok springs to mind. Not trying to be a numpty here, just trying to understand how this can happen? I know I always proper slam any cheese team that does me as long as the points are worth it!

450 m'Thor/Shang-Chi is what I was referencing, but I see her in combination with a lower level boosted character quite a bit.

She's almost everyone's best partner, as long as they don't need to put stuff on the board (and occasionally if they do!). Massive AP generation, passive cascades, super cheap powers that chain...if you can get her to 6 red or blue there's a pretty good chance the enemy never gets another turn, which makes opponent health/damage/etc completely irrelevant.

Are they hitting you on retals? I imagine you probably have to hit a lot of these teams when you run out of targets? I suspect Shang Chi is the one doing the damage?

Sometimes. I do generally end up farming 5 pointers from 1k or so to 1200, and you'd be surprised how many 70 point retals I take from those guys. But they can also just find me and win normally.

I think he's helping, because she's an endless cascade generator and he gets insane match damage. But I don't think it's what's generally suggested, where folks are match-3 savants using him to puzzle-combo off infinitely. I do get beat by those guys too, but it takes them like half an hour per fight, and honestly I'll tip my hat to them!

I genuinely think Shang is the one who punches up in this pairing. He is my highest character just through circumstances but his purple is ridiculous. Obviously Jane helps with her AP nonsense but Shang can beat anybody on offence and probably should have been nerfed ages ago. Like I said before, nerf cascades in PvP and that sorts Jane.

Oddly, I don't agree with this!

I've got zero problem with skillful players beating me (or anyone else) by using him to go infinite, manipulating the board. It requires some puzzley thinking, which generally takes awhile unless you're some kind of genius. You can't just randomly press buttons until you win, like you can with m'Thor.

I don't know - you would probably have to gather data for a few months and see who it is that is beating you and even then if it is Jane/Shang we would still have no idea. If it is more Jane then fair enough.