Black King (Sebastian Shaw) 4*

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Comments

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,018 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Nobody is scared to face her. We're bored of facing her in every single fight.

    We don't need a character who can beat her -- that's literally everyone. We need a character that she can't beat, so other players will have to switch teams occasionally and we can get some variety back in the metagame.

    Who's bored? You? You say "we're bored of facing her".

    Has there been a poll about who is bored about facing her? I don't mind facing her at all BECAUSE of how beatable she is.

    That's fine, and you're entitled to your opinion. You asked about players who wanted her fixed and I explained why I, and some others, want her fixed. No one has trouble beating her -- that's a strawman being used to dismiss a legitimate argument about variety.

    I think there's a pretty good chance that the devs agree, btw, because they watch usage pretty closely and they've cited it recently. I don't think they want MPQ to be completely dominated by a single character.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,718 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2024

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Nobody is scared to face her. We're bored of facing her in every single fight.

    We don't need a character who can beat her -- that's literally everyone. We need a character that she can't beat, so other players will have to switch teams occasionally and we can get some variety back in the metagame.

    Who's bored? You? You say "we're bored of facing her".

    Has there been a poll about who is bored about facing her? I don't mind facing her at all BECAUSE of how beatable she is.

    That's fine, and you're entitled to your opinion. You asked about players who wanted her fixed and I explained why I, and some others, want her fixed. No one has trouble beating her -- that's a strawman being used to dismiss a legitimate argument about variety.

    I think there's a pretty good chance that the devs agree, btw, because they watch usage pretty closely and they've cited it recently. I don't think they want MPQ to be completely dominated by a single character.

    All I was pointing at here was your use of "we're bored facing her". Just because you and others are bored facing her doesn't mean that everyone is or that the devs should bow to your whims.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,018 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Nobody is scared to face her. We're bored of facing her in every single fight.

    We don't need a character who can beat her -- that's literally everyone. We need a character that she can't beat, so other players will have to switch teams occasionally and we can get some variety back in the metagame.

    Who's bored? You? You say "we're bored of facing her".

    Has there been a poll about who is bored about facing her? I don't mind facing her at all BECAUSE of how beatable she is.

    That's fine, and you're entitled to your opinion. You asked about players who wanted her fixed and I explained why I, and some others, want her fixed. No one has trouble beating her -- that's a strawman being used to dismiss a legitimate argument about variety.

    I think there's a pretty good chance that the devs agree, btw, because they watch usage pretty closely and they've cited it recently. I don't think they want MPQ to be completely dominated by a single character.

    All I was pointing at here was your use of "we're bored facing her". Just because you and others are bored facing her doesn't mean that everyone is or that the devs should bow to your whims.

    I don't think the devs require a unanimous player vote before making changes. Tons of players on here wanted Chasm kept the same, and the devs overruled them.

  • Zarqa
    Zarqa Posts: 498 Mover and Shaker

    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,718 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    Weird thing is, didn't even have a strawman. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,018 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    Weird thing is, didn't even have a strawman. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

    You asked why players would want her nerfed when she's so beatable. The call for a nerf or counter has nothing to do with whether she's beatable, and nobody anywhere is complaining that they can't beat her. The people complaining are sick of seeing her in every fight.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,718 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    Weird thing is, didn't even have a strawman. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

    You asked why players would want her nerfed when she's so beatable. The call for a nerf or counter has nothing to do with whether she's beatable, and nobody anywhere is complaining that they can't beat her. The people complaining are sick of seeing her in every fight.

    That's not a strawman. I'm thinking your definition of a strawman is not what an actual strawman is. But go ahead and you do you.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,018 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    You guys are so weird about this character.

    The other reason I'd enjoy seeing her nerfed or countered into irrelevance is personal -- the dedicated m'Thor users/defenders get SO defensive and worked up about her that I really just want bad things to happen to them. The Gambit people were pretty close, but even they gave up eventually.

    I'm not sure whether the party I have for her nerf will be bigger and more extravagant than the day they killed cupcakes (that one was great!) or the day they killed Gambit, or Bishop, or Chasm, but it'll probably be close!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,018 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    Weird thing is, didn't even have a strawman. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

    You asked why players would want her nerfed when she's so beatable. The call for a nerf or counter has nothing to do with whether she's beatable, and nobody anywhere is complaining that they can't beat her. The people complaining are sick of seeing her in every fight.

    That's not a strawman. I'm thinking your definition of a strawman is not what an actual strawman is. But go ahead and you do you.

    How would you describe it? You're constructing a counter-argument to an argument that no one is making.

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 751 Critical Contributor

    fight...Fight..FIGHT!

    @entrailbucket, have you used ascended MBaku? Is he good?

    Shaw seems interesting.

  • Zarqa
    Zarqa Posts: 498 Mover and Shaker

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    You guys are so weird about this character.

    I made no comment about this character, so you shouldn’t assume how I feel about him. I was simply trying to be cheeky about your rhetorical techniques that are on display here frequently.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,018 Chairperson of the Boards

    @WhiteBomber said:
    fight...Fight..FIGHT!

    @entrailbucket, have you used ascended MBaku? Is he good?

    He's INSANE. He's also one of the few that benefits significantly from being 5/5/5, so there's some fun teams to be made there.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 769 Critical Contributor

    mThor problem is simple: in the game when ya have to collect "whatver" to fire powers, she is to versitile. She never was to hard to beat. She just collect that "whatever" so easily that she is best partner to everybody.

    On the other hand, I know that if she will be less present somebody instantly will replace her. So I preffer her omipresence in a staple meta when nobody is realy broken. Even if I want her to be nerfed it is so far better if she stays the way she is now.

    Unless devs will come with something surpsising.

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 751 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:

    @WhiteBomber said:
    fight...Fight..FIGHT!

    @entrailbucket, have you used ascended MBaku? Is he good?

    He's INSANE. He's also one of the few that benefits significantly from being 5/5/5, so there's some fun teams to be made there.

    I thought he might be good, somethin to think about, thanks @entrailbucket !

    What if... we actually see even more MThor because she ends up being a great partner to buff Shaw?!? That could be fun. In my experience Chasm already fully spays her anyway, but I do get that she is in 85+% of the teams I see.

  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,722 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @Mr_F said:
    mThor problem is simple: in the game when ya have to collect "whatver" to fire powers, she is to versitile. She never was to hard to beat. She just collect that "whatever" so easily that she is best partner to everybody.

    On the other hand, I know that if she will be less present somebody instantly will replace her. So I preffer her omipresence in a staple meta when nobody is realy broken. Even if I want her to be nerfed it is so far better if she stays the way she is now.

    Unless devs will come with something surpsising.

    Yeah, if they nerfed her the omega red/collosus teams that flood every lightning round would probably replace all those shang/Jane teams. I'd much rather see the mthor teams all the time.

    MThor plays great with anyone who doesn't rely keeping something on the board, and is fantastic against anyone who does, so yeah, she fits into a lot of teams. For the L/Rs a pain-in-the-butt defensive team is best (Mthor isn't,) so that's why we see so many OR/Col. I agree that if MThor is nerfed, that team will probably become the default pick two, which is so-so.

    I still say that so long as at least two of the boosted 5*s play well together you don't see too much of her. We've just had two consecutive weeks where that just plain has not been the case.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,018 Chairperson of the Boards

    @WhiteBomber said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @WhiteBomber said:
    fight...Fight..FIGHT!

    @entrailbucket, have you used ascended MBaku? Is he good?

    He's INSANE. He's also one of the few that benefits significantly from being 5/5/5, so there's some fun teams to be made there.

    I thought he might be good, somethin to think about, thanks @entrailbucket !

    What if... we actually see even more MThor because she ends up being a great partner to buff Shaw?!? That could be fun. In my experience Chasm already fully spays her anyway, but I do get that she is in 85+% of the teams I see.

    Mine is just a baby but I see the potential and I've used him a bit. That one account that keeps getting posted here has him at 550 but I haven't seen it using him yet.

    I don't think folks will use m'Thor to buff Shaw. I do think that's a viable strategy though! Her problem is that she only makes one charged tile per turn passively, and Shaw wants to eat all your AP. Black Bolt would be good at this, if he wasn't so awful at... everything.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,718 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    Weird thing is, didn't even have a strawman. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

    You asked why players would want her nerfed when she's so beatable. The call for a nerf or counter has nothing to do with whether she's beatable, and nobody anywhere is complaining that they can't beat her. The people complaining are sick of seeing her in every fight.

    That's not a strawman. I'm thinking your definition of a strawman is not what an actual strawman is. But go ahead and you do you.

    How would you describe it? You're constructing a counter-argument to an argument that no one is making.

    Please tell me exactly what my strawman argument was.

    You are the one continually calling for MThor to be nerfed or countered. I never did.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,018 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    Weird thing is, didn't even have a strawman. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

    You asked why players would want her nerfed when she's so beatable. The call for a nerf or counter has nothing to do with whether she's beatable, and nobody anywhere is complaining that they can't beat her. The people complaining are sick of seeing her in every fight.

    That's not a strawman. I'm thinking your definition of a strawman is not what an actual strawman is. But go ahead and you do you.

    How would you describe it? You're constructing a counter-argument to an argument that no one is making.

    Please tell me exactly what my strawman argument was.

    You are the one continually calling for MThor to be nerfed or countered. I never did.

    I don't know why I keep letting myself get baited by the m'Thor Defense Force. She's going away eventually, and it's going to be hilarious. The devs themselves said they're looking at her. It's happening.

    But sure, let's do it -- the strawman you created is "players want m'Thor to be nerfed because they can't win fights against her." Then you countered that (non-existent) argument by saying that she's actually very easy to beat, so they're wrong about wanting her to be nerfed.

    This is the definition of a strawman argument. You made up your own narrative, then countered it.

    I haven't seen anyone anywhere saying that they can't win fights against her. The players I've seen that are asking for a nerf are bored of having to face her over and over again.

    Do you have a counter-argument for that one? Should I just not be bored of only seeing her in PvP?

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,718 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @Zarqa said:
    EB calling someone else out for using a Strawman fallacy?!? Oh wait, it’s April Fools day. Good one Bucket! 😉

    Weird thing is, didn't even have a strawman. Just trying to understand the reasoning.

    You asked why players would want her nerfed when she's so beatable. The call for a nerf or counter has nothing to do with whether she's beatable, and nobody anywhere is complaining that they can't beat her. The people complaining are sick of seeing her in every fight.

    That's not a strawman. I'm thinking your definition of a strawman is not what an actual strawman is. But go ahead and you do you.

    How would you describe it? You're constructing a counter-argument to an argument that no one is making.

    Please tell me exactly what my strawman argument was.

    You are the one continually calling for MThor to be nerfed or countered. I never did.

    I don't know why I keep letting myself get baited by the m'Thor Defense Force. She's going away eventually, and it's going to be hilarious. The devs themselves said they're looking at her. It's happening.

    But sure, let's do it -- the strawman you created is "players want m'Thor to be nerfed because they can't win fights against her." Then you countered that (non-existent) argument by saying that she's actually very easy to beat, so they're wrong about wanting her to be nerfed.

    This is the definition of a strawman argument. You made up your own narrative, then countered it.

    I haven't seen anyone anywhere saying that they can't win fights against her. The players I've seen that are asking for a nerf are bored of having to face her over and over again.

    Do you have a counter-argument for that one? Should I just not be bored of only seeing her in PvP?

    Do we need to do a quote off? You have been against MT for a long time. For lots of reasons in lots of different threads. I can find them if you want. But you have wanted her nerfed/countered for at least over a year. But your reasons for countering her weren't because you were bored, until recently.

    Please show me any quotes, besides yours, who say they are bored facing her. There are lots of quotes about not wanting to play her because her randomness can beat you. Or she is too powerful. But not because they are bored. Those are your words.

    You make up your own narrative also and decide on the counter for it. So maybe we both put up strawmen?

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