Grist needs nerfing. And a lot of it.

Nalthazar

Oh my goodness, there is so much uncomfortable animosity here. This kind of fighting brings the whole community down. I would really struggle if it was my job to sift through all of this to find the nuggets of useful information. Sniping and barbs doesn't do us any good. Players who are new to the game or aren't yet active in the forums will stumble upon threads like this one and see so much toxicity. That can't be inviting. I know of established players (myself included) who normally avoid the forums exactly because (as an example) of how things devolved in this thread. That really isn't going to help us use this otherwise potentially useful resource to communicate with the team. I feel like we can show a lot more kindness. If there is beef that can be addressed between individuals, then talk it out with each other. This doesn't have to be on public display. We are all on the same team here when push comes to shove. We want to have fun playing this game. Can we please go back to using this space to talk about the intended subject of the thread and how we feel about Grist's balancing?

Nalthazar

I'm personally on the side of tweaking Grist for a lot of the reasons stated by others here. I think that Grist's power and ability to affect the tempo of a match is greater than any other walker's ability (except Dakkon) in a balanced meta. Grist's usage in almost every event showcases that. I don't feel like it is just the present meta of cards like Ghalta and Rakdos that bring Grist forward. Grist is one of the two most common walker opponents I face in the Commoner Cup as well. Grist excels with a lot of objectives because 6 loyalty for free creatures and corrupt gems that eventually give you free cards along with mass support removal for 9 loyalty and a win condition for 15 loyalty that plays off of the first ability gives you a lot of wiggle room and power. Grist overpowers opponents with an efficiency unlike any other walker. I saw a discussion about power creep as well and I think Grist is honestly the best example of that in the game. Our last black/green reanimate walker with Nissa and there is no real comparison between the power of the two of them. I think Grist's abilities are fine as they are, but I personally feel that their loyalty costs should be tweaked. I think the first could be 7 loyalty and Grist would still be an S tier walker. Black/Green Vraska destroys one support for 9 loyalty. Grist destroys 3. Grist's second ability could cost 12-15 loyalty and she would still be an S tier walker. Her third could be 18-21 Loyalty and she would still be an S tier walker. Her abilities are all top tier abilities that you can find use of throughout the course of a battle. She provides tempo, removal, and a win condition with an exceptional health pool and great mana gains. At 7, 12, and 18 loyalty for her abilities I think she would still probably be arguably the best walker for most events. I'm not saying I am objectively right, I'm just expressing my opinion. I just feel like she does too much, too efficiently.

naabaldan

Thank you for your post @Nalthazar .

I lost one time against grist so far playing multiple accounts. Greg mostly uses the first or second ability. Rarely the third and only because of an overwhelming mana cascade.

The second is strong but demolition field for 12 mana is way stronger.

Besides that, i would agree to the suggested increase of loyalty cost even if it spoils my investment.

gozmaster

Glad to have your voice heard here @Nalthazar , and as I've said before, see.... the CCs don't always agree.

Especially Nalthy and I.

That said, my only point against a small nerf like that to the loyalty abilities is as I've raised before...

That really wouldn't do much to slow greg down.

I mean, why nerf?

To keep the AI from pounding us into the ground? (we're not really seeing that yet)

As she sits now, her ability scores are 6, 9, and 15 (All very inexpensive, yes)
Suggested tweaks would take her up 7, 12 and 18

To me, those are more than fair... yes, she'll STILL be an S-Tier walker, I agree, HOWEVER...

This doesn't change a thing.

What are we nerfing here, greg or The player?

Greg's advantage is his ability to cascade, like... INSANE amounts of mana per turn.

All the complaints I'm hearing here are about Grist's A1. and from 6 to 7 (even to 9) isn't going to slow that at all. So if it makes NO impact to greg, and ONLY penalizes the player, why do it in the first place?

Look, greg will cascade and hit that ability in the SAME time it's always taken him, and not slow him down.

OK, make the jump even higher, right? 10/15/25 even?... Again, STILL an S-Tier walker IMO, and YES this will slow greg (some)... but not near as much as it does the player nearly DOUBLING the turns needed to get the loyalty to use.

But greg WILL be slowed a round MAYBE 2, or will it?

If we as players need more loyalty/cascades to trigger those, won't we build in MORE mana conversion/loyalty ramp to hit them faster? So greg will be playing with those too?

And as long as Ghalta can give a full board smash... Guess what greg gone do?

So again, I ask, who we trying to nerf?

No, a nerf in ANY way to her abilities, should have come before launch. and a minor one now ONLY punishes the player base, and does nothing to slow down greg.

The only other option is to adjust the abilities themselves nerfing her functions, and that to me is the worst option, because the player base BOUGHT her for those game impacts. FUN things to bring out cards from the yard. I LOVE IT! lol

Best part, she's not tanking the meta's win rates like we saw with Pajani.

And I STILL Argue... She's NOT stronger than Dakkon, So... what are we even talking about gang? lol

I don't see her as a problem, and most seem to like playing with fun toys.

Let them play.

naabaldan

Totally agreed @gozmaster

Nalthazar

In response to Gozmaster's post, I actually do think that Grist both impacts win rates and is stronger than Dakkon's in the hands of the AI.

Dakkon doesn't push the tempo of the match as quickly as Grist does. Dakkon has access to better cards than Grist in my opinion, but Grist still overpowers Dakkon. Grist's third is a solid counter to both of Dakkon's first and second abilities in finding a win condition and the first starts spamming more quickly than Dakkon's does. In a way I'm glad you mentioned Dakkon as well, because I am also of the opinion (as you know) that Dakkon should be tweaked slightly as well. I think the first ability should have a number cap on the gems counted for each effect. This thread isn't about Dakkon though, so I won't go into the depth on Dakkon in this thread. The only walker's that each of them can really be compared to in my mind are each other in terms of power because they are both a head taller than the competition.

As for win rates, most of my losses at this point since Grist came out have been to Grist. This is often in the training grounds when I am testing decks out, but there is a good reason for that. If I am going against Grist, I need to use the full strength of my collection to combat her, and even then she still sometimes pulls through. I have pretty much every card in the game too. The combination of Ghalta + Tempt with Discovery can end a game very quickly. Throw in cards like Rakdos, the Rhino, or literally any other beefy G/B critter and it warps the power scale of a match. It can happen without using Grist as well, but Grist enables it significantly more reliably and the answers to it aren't as definitively effective. I don't have a major problem with win rates going down a touch in this game. I recognize that with power creep there will be times where specific things are going to stand ahead of the rest of the competition as the power is crept. It is part of how that works. For me personally Grist takes away from the fun of the game. In events I pretty much have to either A.) swap when I see Grist to a specific powerhouse deck or B.) change my deck to specifically answer what she does. I feel that because of how quickly and easily she gets to her abilities and the impact that using those abilities has on the match that swapping isn't always enough to counter how much better she is than everything else.

This is all my opinion. I personally am really hoping that we see a Grist tweak in the near future. I don't want it to be a big one like I outlined in my previous post. I personally LOVE G/B reanimate. Grist is the walker that I wanted to come into existence the most of any archetype and color combination in PQ. I just think that she came in too hot.

gozmaster

@Nalthazar said:
In response to Gozmaster's post, I actually do think that Grist both impacts win rates and is stronger than Dakkon's in the hands of the AI.
The only walker's that each of them can really be compared to in my mind are each other in terms of power because they are both a head taller than the competition.

Debatable, but Okayyy... continue...

Dakkon doesn't push the tempo of the match as quickly as Grist does.

Ok there's 2 things to consider here...

• 1. Frequency: I agree with this... (For the player at least), which is why I don't want the nerf, as she can activate for 6 vs. Dakkon at 9. Simple math, but with greg's cascades I'm not PERSONALLY seeing much difference in him using the A1 for either (To be fair though... I'll have to gather more data on this to get an accurate measure) .

• Additionally, what's not mentioned here... Dakkon A1 recharges loyalty from blue gems on use. Typically there are ALWAYS at least 3 on board, so... your future A1's cost 6 or less loyalty, and MANY TIMES you can trigger it for free. (NOICE!) Which greg does a LOT lol.

• 2. A1 Impact Now, I won't argue who's better here. Her's is MUCH faster and stronger. and with the ability to get BIG creatures on board (IE Ghalta) with solid ETBs (IE GHALTA!), it can make things move VERY quick.

• HOWEVER unless you have vTyvar out which takes a couple turns and LONGER for greg because he doesn't prioritize supports over creatures, nearly all the creatures she'd reanimate in green/black don't have haste.... So... removal? and then Grist is sitting there and having to start over.

Dakkon has access to better cards than Grist in my opinion,

• Of course, 3 Color walkers will always have better access to cards than a 2-color walker. Makes sense. Which is why Koth sucks. However, Blue/Black/White ... Stronger than Green conversion right now?

... but Grist still overpowers Dakkon. Grist's third is a solid counter to both of Dakkon's first and second abilities in finding a win condition and the first starts spamming more quickly than Dakkon's does.

**Here, I disagree... **

• First off, See Grist , Add graveyard hate . (Either cards or walkers) , end of discussion. And walkers like Kaya just stop both of them (D&G) So... there's that.

• Next, Um... No. Her second doesn't kill token supports so... D's A3 is safe and doing massive face-paste turn over turn. Yes she removes a lot of supports, but no more than Demo Field. So... Yeah.

Also, many players (like myself) aren't prioritizing support play over spells/creatures... So her second can be situational, and a DEAD ability if the opponent isn't running supports at all, and her support removal is a great counter to control players in the game. Control that has otherwise been left unchecked over the last couple years (but we'll come back to that later).

• And her 3rd. OOF MASSIVE good... in a players hands..... IF they can stomach the 8 HOURS of animation (Cmon WC Get this fixed, lol), but again, remove the yard, and it's not an issue. Not to mention, greg isn't spamming 3rds, he typically will spam 1 or 2, but not the 3rd.

**As for win rates, ** most of my losses at this point have been to Grist.

Because your loss rates have gone up as a whole (IE I was losing about 3% of games before, and now I'm up to... what? 5%? Oookay.) Or, could it be, because of the losses you do have (the same 3% as before) are now against her because of the NUMBER of times you're facing her?

For me, It's more the latter and even then, look, I hear you, but man.. Nearly all others I'm chatting with aren't losing any more (percentage wise) to Grist than other "average" walkers. AND DEFINITELY Not NEAR as many losses or points in events when compared to either Chronoclast or Veiliana

This is often in the training grounds when I am testing decks, but there is a good reason for that.

• Losing while testing decks in TGs/Quick Battles? Uh... I argue that's good. This way you're ACTUALLY getting a fair challenge to your testing. I say it's better here vs in live events. But hey, you do you boo...

So the reader is clear, I test... A LOT of decks and playstyles, and i've lost maybe 2 matches to Grist in STD QBs, and trust me, these are NOT optimal builds, lol (You know I love the jank)

• However, I will concede that BASIC removal is now a MUST in all builds. (I didn't run removal at all many times, and would still win) But this isn't JUST because of G, it's also true for support removal. I've found a minimum of 2 kill cards per deck, are typically MORE than enough to handle her creature flow.

In events I pretty much have to either A.) swap when I see Grist to a specific powerhouse deck or B.) change my deck to specifically answer what she does. I feel that because of how quickly and easily she gets to her abilities and the impact that using those abilities has on the match that swapping isn't always enough to counter how much better she is than everything else.

Again, I personally think this is GREAT for the game. Play and Counterplay. Isn't that what games are supposed to be, Vs. "I build one deck and that should beat everything I face"

To me, this unique strength lends itself to MTG proper, where you have counter play styles and builds... IE Control decks countered by aggro Decks. Aggro countered big creature, Big Creature, countered by control etc.

The difference in PQ is we get to see our opponent and guess at their builds BEFORE we start the match, so we have the advantage of sideboarding, or changing out our deck builds completely in order to ensure we hit objectives and win.

To me, this a MUCH more fun than... "Oh ... Okay. ANOTHER event, I'll smash with my SAME core build and expect full points from." That gets old , fast.

The combination of Ghalta + Tempt with Discovery can end a game very quickly. Throw in cards like Rakdos, the Rhino, or literally any other beefy G/B critter and it warps the power scale of a match. It can happen without using Grist as well, but Grist enables it significantly more reliably and the answers to it aren't as definitively effective.

AHHH! Now we come to the REAL issues IMO.

Green Decks: BIG HONKING slabs of death and the cascades that love them....

So, for me... the ONLY reason we're having this conversation is because of ONE Creature that is SUPERcharging Grist both in board presences and her ETB effect.

Ghalta.

I love her, I don't want her nerfed, but if there is ANYONE to re-evaluate here, it's her.

Want proof? Cool, try running Grist without her, and see HOW different, she plays. How much "Faster" she is, and I think you'll be singing a different tune.

(Hey Nalthy, remember we had this SAME conversation about Dakkon, and running him without Cut Your Losses to see how MUCH slower he was? Fast forward to today, now that CYL is out of rotation... How often do you face him? See, I told you lol.)

Look, I won't argue against Grist being the absolute peek of B/G walkers to run reanimator, I agree and I LOVE her for it.

But WITHOUT that 15 gems nuking the board with green... Is Grist REALLY THAT strong when compared to the rest of the new top walkers in the game?

While I'm on that tangent...

Here's a Hot take... I argue... Dack's First is stronger than Grist's.

I argue, Liliana of the Dark Realms (Lil x)'s Passive mana ramp is stronger than Grists's "reanimate" impact. (at least, once 2 creatures hit the yard, turn 2 in most cases)

I even argue that Jace Reawakened's (JASHIOK) 3rd is a BETTER finisher than Grists (At least in event play) because I can control and measure his impact better than she can. And can happen MUCH faster than Grist's. (Up to 45 to the Face!, not to mention the DRAIN OF ALL YOUR MANA lol. )

Guess what kids, these are all NEWER walkers, and like it or not, the NEW average power of walkers is going up, and I and MOST of the Players LOVE IT! And YES although Grist is DEF at the front of that curve... It's STill within reason of where the new walker average is leaning

But I argue now, just as I did against nerfing Dakkon back in the day... That Ghatla IS the new CYL in STD. And without her... Grist is MUCH. more "Average" (well... lol, still above average, but "averager"?) and NOT needing a nerf.

Honestly, if you take the 2-ton-backside out of the equation, I just don't see Grist being THAT much more powerful than the walkers I listed above, and frankly, if (WHEN) Ghalta isn't in the meta, Grist's power will come back down.. And you'll see her play volume diminish... JUST as Dakkon did. (He declined even before SNC's rotation, but that's another post)

My Brother from another cupboard... AN overwhelming MAJORITY of the player base (at least the ones I've chatted with) DON'T want a nerf, and DON'T feel she's oppressive. And That's WITH ghalta in play. (At least not yet)

I say, give it a few months (At least) and see what else comes down the pipe from WC, and where the meta is in a couple sets.

If she's STILL that prevalent, then maybe a tweak is in order... but at least those that have paid for her have had a SOLID amount of time to enjoy her before then, but I'm willing to wager, it won't be needed.

Not as long as WC keeps the counter play cards & stronger walkers coming, and/or consider nerfing our Primeval Tyrant. (GHALTA SMASH!)

Final point on this...

Compare this walker to the calls for nerfing Pajani... where nearly everyone was on board with a nerf... and I feel this is a VERY fine walker to "leave be".

I don't have a major problem with win rates going down a touch in this game. I recognize that with power creep there will be times where specific things are going to stand ahead of the rest of the competition as the power is crept. It is part of how that works.

Glad we agree on something.

For me personally Grist takes away from the fun of the game.

Wow, I can't disagree more here.

I (And many others) feel she pumps new life and energy into the game that has been missing, and frankly this to me, might be at the core of what's happening in these discussions...

Look, MOST of the older walkers suck man.

They are NOT fun to play with, and are a waste of resources to pick up.

This new wave , Lil X, Dack, JaShiok, Oko, Quintorious and even Chandra HBacon and of course Queen Grist, are the new power average people need to get on board with.

To me, these guys are heads and shoulders better than the top walkers of the old era.

Stop comparing this new tier of power (IE Grist) to the basement level play of those other walkers, they suck man, and I'd NEVER recommend people use their resources on them. Not when there are SO many new/better (FUN) options available.

Respect brother... But again, I think she's fine.

** In a way I'm glad you mentioned Dakkon as well, **

Wait? What are you doing?

...because I am also of the opinion (as you know) that Dakkon should be tweaked slightly as well.

No.... Stop... STOP IT!

I think the first ability should have a number cap on the gems counted for each effect.

Why Do you HATE ME SO MUCH!?!? HOW DARE YOU!?

...This thread isn't about Dakkon though, so I won't go into the depth on Dakkon in this thread.

OR ANYWHERE! YOU LEAVE MY DAKKON ALONE! Why do you INSIST on Breaking my toys? Why are you like this? GO TO YOUR ROOM AND PLAY WITH YOUR MONO WALKER! LEAVE MY STUFF ALONE!

(lol , To all those that don't know I respect and admire Nalthazar, he is a good friend, despite his horrible thoughts on my favorite planeswalkers. )

This is all my opinion. I personally am really hoping that we see a Grist tweak in the near future. I don't want it to be a big one like I outlined in my previous post. I personally LOVE G/B reanimate. Grist is the walker that I wanted to come into existence the most of any archetype and color combination in PQ. I just think that she came in too hot.

And here you and I , my friend, will agree to disagree.

Again, I think she's fine. And Hope EQUALLY against a nerf.

But as i've said a ton of times before... That's for webcore to decide.

Love your brother. Now go play with your Koth.

sarimace

A few things here:
The discussion on the discord started by @gozmaster asked, whether Grist needs a nerf. NEEDS is the improtant word here. IIRC there was a lot of responses along the lines of "Needs? Probably not, but...". Goz presents his polls as "most players are against the nerfs", but from what I saw (on his servers), this is misleading at best.

"Grist is not the problem, the cards are." I agree that the cards that the top of the cards are way too powerfull (and in my opinion should be nerfed and the game health of the game would be better overall, but that is for another discussion), but Grist is definitely a problem as well.
I personally don't play all the top cards, because I don't find it fun and interesting to play that way. Neither of my Grist decks use cards I would regularly see played by other players and she is no less ridiculous.
Getting a creature with 20+ cost for six loyalty is ridiculous even with pauper cards. Killing three supports in one sweep is a lot of times backbreaking, regardless of Ghalta and friends...

"Adjusting the loyalty costs does not fix anyhitng, it nerfs the players and not Greg." Hard disagree. Even if Greg was left with the original version of Grist, people would play her a little less and therefore there would be less Grist decks in the pool. Less Grist in the pool means less of a Grist problem. QED.
Even if Greg hits a cascade, it would still slow him down. Rakdos hitting the board on turn 4 instead of turn 3 is a huge difference in terms of your chances of winning.
Plus, changing the loyalty costs just slows her down a bit, meaning that everyone who loves the PW and the play-style can still play and enjoy her, and she would not be that much weaker.
(It seems that we assume that Greg has an advantage in terms of cascades; to me this seems like a case of 'I only remeber the times when it was ridiculous and forget all the regular 3-swaps', has this been ever confirmed by the devs?)

I personally completely missed that she has a total of +10 mana gains. This absolutely NEEDS to be adjusted down to be on the level of other walker, in Grist and in all of the other walkers that have them. (And I would even be in favor of adjusting the older walkers up to the current (maybe not current anymore huh?) standard. And even for some adjustment on the newest Jace who ends up with additional +2 from his passive, though that one is on the edge.)
Why?:
a) This sets the new norm. Any new walkers will be compared to this and there are two options:
1) They match it. In that case, all of the old PWs will be made obsolete in the time span of about a year. Sure, you can still play them, but you will be at a disadvantage across the board regardless of the abilities.
2) They don't match it. In that case, we have a handful of PWs that are at a significant advantage over anything else.
not sure which is worse for the game.
b) Mana is the main and most important resource in the game. It may not seem like it is that big of a deal at first glance, but it is.
c) Powercreep is bad. Plain and simple. Power is relative. If you enjoy powerful cards, stopping power creep does not rob you of that joy, because there will always be some "most powerful" cards. It just raises the bar for what is actually playable. Power creep does not give you more fun cards to play, it takes the fun cards to play away from you.

"WC needs to sell the PWs to make money." If the main goal is to sell the new walkers, there are ways to achieve that that do not jeopardize the game. Increase the window before they become available for in-game currencies. Give each PW purchased for IRL money access to some new cards ahead of schedule. Give the PW a better starting deck if purchased for cash.

"People who paid money will be upset." Well boo hoo, too bad WC cannot address that somehow isn't it? It is not like WC can give the players who actually did buy the PW with IRL money some in-game compensation, like, say, PM2 pack(s), non-dupe pack(s), vanguard pack(s)... But alas, none of that is possible.

My initial response was "no, it is not absolutely necessary to nerf Grist, although I think it should be nerfed." I didn't realize the mana gains issue. At LEAST that absolutely NEEDS to change. And for the health of the game, the abilites should also. The loylaty costs are the easiest change. I would like to see the second nerfed to 2 or nonland (or both, ideally) supports as well, but that is maybe to some extent because it is extra-punishing against my usual play-style.
(wall of text ends here...)

sarimace

Btw. in terms of power level of a PW ability, here is a little thought experiment:

Take any PW. Take its abilities and ask yourself "how good of a card would this be, if it was a card with the same effect and manacost equal to the loyalty cost?"
For the vast majority of PWs, the answers are the same (IMO):
A1 is usually about cool, sometimes a little overcosted.
A2 is about balanced.
A3 is very powerfull and probably a little undercosted.
Most PWs with an ability that is more powerful with respect to this metric are balanced by the other abilities, (W&R for example), and even the most powerful and played PWs will follow this (Dakkon? Sure. Tamyio? On the nose. Ral? Yep. Windgrace? Totally. Garruk, CH? Yeah.)

This is my baseline. From this baseline, Grist is incredibly busted, just based purely on the abilities, not taking into account stuff like health, mana or colors.

Janosik

@gozmaster said:

• 2. A1 Impact Now, I won't argue who's better here. Her's is MUCH faster and stronger. and with the ability to get BIG creatures on board (IE Ghalta) with solid ETBs (IE GHALTA!), it can make things move VERY quick.

• HOWEVER unless you have vTyvar out which takes a couple turns and LONGER for greg because he doesn't prioritize supports over creatures, nearly all the creatures she'd reanimate in green/black don't have haste.... So... removal? and then Grist is sitting there and having to start over.

This is a rather curious point to make. Pretty much all planeswalkers are vulnerable to having all their creatures killed and having to start over, provided you can find the resources to do it...

Grist, however, is far more resilient against this tactic than most, since she can start over not only by casting creatures from her hand, like everyone else, but also by reanimating them from her graveyard for the extraordinarily low cost of 6 loyalty.

@gozmaster said:
Again, I personally think this is GREAT for the game. Play and Counterplay. Isn't that what games are supposed to be, Vs. "I build one deck and that should beat everything I face"

It should be noted here that there are events where your sideboard options are severely limited, such as the new version of RtO where you are not allowed to change your PW in a node once selected.

@gozmaster said:
So, for me... the ONLY reason we're having this conversation is because of ONE Creature that is SUPERcharging Grist both in board presences and her ETB effect.

Ghalta.

I love her, I don't want her nerfed, but if there is ANYONE to re-evaluate here, it's her.

While I'd still like to see Grist nerfed, this is worth considering.

Although I'm skeptical that Webcore will never intentionally make another Ghalta (We'd all be playing Dragonhawk if it was green, wouldn't we!) but we could, of course, cross that bridge when we come to it. Grist has multiple reanimate targets that give her powerful resource advantage (like Rakdos, or Loot), but I can't think of anything else that gives you that same amount of resource advantage immediately (including, it should be noted, plenty of loyalty from all that green conversion, allowing Grist to use her loyalty abilities again, and frequently!).

Then again....What does Grist play like with Selvala, Eager Trailblazer, or Overlord of the Hauntwoods? I've not tried these in Grist yet, and I'm not sure if I've even played against a Grist playing them (because we're all playing Grist with Ghalta!) If Grist is capable of reanimating a creature that generates both mana and more loyalty than her 1st (even at EOT), that still seems problematic.

Also... If we do nerf a card rather than nerfing Grist... and then later on, have to nerf another card rather than nerfing Grist... and then another... and so on... that would, to our future selves, seem to indicate that Grist was the problem we should have fixed in the first place.

naabaldan

Just saying it again

Grist' third is not a real issue because it is rarely used by Greg.
Most often the 1st
Sometimes the 2nd

It all belongs to how fast loyalty is added because Grist will use the first as often as possible.

Discussions regarding abilities should keep possibilities in mind.

gozmaster

@Janosik said:
This is a rather curious point to make. Pretty much all planeswalkers are vulnerable to having all their creatures killed and having to start over, provided you can find the resources to do it...

Grist, however, is far more resilient against this tactic than most, since she can start over not only by casting creatures from her hand, like everyone else, but also by reanimating them from her graveyard for the extraordinarily low cost of 6 loyalty.

This is a fair point, my reason for bringing it up, is the ability to deal with her threats as they hit the board. Maybe a better way to prep/deal with her is with exile effects?

Using those to throw her threats in the attic keeps her from recycling from the basement. (Again, creative fun ways to play in the game)

Further, with cards like Aegis and (more readily available) Kitnap, "stealing her gurl" to beat her with those creatures is another VERY effective way to deal with her threats.

Bottom line, there are several options to deal with her "speedy" output.

It should be noted here that there are events where your sideboard options are severely limited, such as the new version of RtO where you are not allowed to change your PW in a node once selected.

Again, another fairpoint, but most build decks to be flexible enough to deal with these types of things, and for her specifically, MOST basic builds are built to handle a few OP creatures IE Rakdos. (Even an onslaught like grists ) but like i said before, switching out destroy effects, for exile could be just enough.

Although I'm skeptical that Webcore will never intentionally make another Ghalta (We'd all be playing Dragonhawk if it was green, wouldn't we!) but we could, of course, cross that bridge when we come to it. Grist has multiple reanimate targets that give her powerful resource advantage (like Rakdos, or Loot), but I can't think of anything else that gives you that same amount of resource advantage immediately (including, it should be noted, plenty of loyalty from all that green conversion, allowing Grist to use her loyalty abilities again, and frequently!).

So here is where I'd say, I'm not just expecting WC to make "Another Ghalta" but I'm actually expecting it.

At least in the amount of conversion that Green can generate. I mean, that's Green's thing, isn't it?

It lacks draw NORMALLY (thank you Gitrog for fixing that lol) but once cards are in hand, even without Ghalta, you have tokens and seed and anything else that will be coming down the pipe.

It's Ghalta's combination of "THAT much conversion" with "THAT big a body" that makes Ghalta unique.

So, yeah... MAYBE not this strong a lizard... but I would FULLY expect something in green in the future to offer that much terraforming.

So doesn't that mean it makes more sense to nerf Grist?

Again, not necessarily, I think this is a time for "Green/Black" to shine... Just as it was Dakkon's when he first came out, and just as it will another walker that hits the streets in the next year.

Ghalta getting a nerf? Again, I don't want to see it... But THAT, I'd understand more than Grist proper.

At least for now...

Then again....What does Grist play like with Selvala, Eager Trailblazer, or Overlord of the Hauntwoods? I've not tried these in Grist yet, and I'm not sure if I've even played against a Grist playing them (because we're all playing Grist with Ghalta!)

That's my point, we're all raising eyebrows at THIS incarnation of Her, and again... MAYBE she does need a nerf, but not before we evaluate the full scope of her power.

In 4 weeks, and after much testing with other conversion/deck builds, she's STILL that dominant, man, I'd get it. I still wouldn't want it, or think it's necessary, but I'd get it.

Right now, i just don't think we have enough data.

If Grist is capable of reanimating a creature that generates both mana and more loyalty than her 1st (even at EOT), that still seems problematic.

Agreed. But I'd want to see it (And play with it ) before making that assumption.

Also... If we do nerf a card rather than nerfing Grist... and then later on, have to nerf another card rather than nerfing Grist... and then another... and so on... that would, to our future selves, seem to indicate that Grist was the problem we should have fixed in the first place.

VERY fair point, but I think we all can see that Ghalta, makes EVERY green walker oppressive right now? Grist is just the best at abusing it. And if later we say, will "THis card is a Problem" and THAT card too" etc... That's the time to make that decision.

But we DEF need to see other builds with Ghalta before any of this should be tweaked.

Go break her.

Use her to DOMINATE others with the AI in the driver seat.

That's when I think she'll need a serious eval.

sarimace

• 2. A1 Impact Now, I won't argue who's better here. Her's is MUCH faster and stronger. and with the ability to get BIG creatures on board (IE Ghalta) with solid ETBs (IE GHALTA!), it can make things move VERY quick.

• HOWEVER unless you have vTyvar out which takes a couple turns and LONGER for greg because he doesn't prioritize supports over creatures, nearly all the creatures she'd reanimate in green/black don't have haste.... So... removal? and then Grist is sitting there and having to start over.

Good thing her second does not just vaporize all your resources innit? (This is btw. exactly why I think the A2 should at least say non-land)

But regardless, if you are spending a card and mana every turn to kill whatever comes out of the GY with her first, you are a) at a huge disadvantage and b) gonna lose the game the very second you don't draw your kill spell or don't get the mana to cast it.
not to mention that there is a ton of creatures that have already done the damage by the time your turn rolls over (Ghalta, Rakdos, but there will always be be plenty to choose once these are rotated)

And even if you pack GY hate, you still will have plenty of games where Greg gets to 6 loyalty on turn 2 or 3, way before you even draw your hate. And you are still dedicating a card (at least) to fight an A1... And its not like paper dredge, you are not obliterating her with that, you are just cutting one angle of attack.

Recently, grief was banned in paper legacy. The deck that used it had a busted GY strategy and backed it up by a very resilient tempo plan that did not rely on GY in any way. If you went too hard on GY hate, you watered down your plan too much and it just ran you over with the other parts of the plan. This is a similar case: you hate on the GY to mitigate her A1, and get obliterated by the rest of her plan.

Which, just to remind you, is gonna come faster than whatever you are doing, since she has better mana gains (than basically any other PW, other than the few mistake ones released alongside her) and on top of that, her passive also gains mana.

Y'all seem to think that the mana is not a big deal. It is a HUGE f***g deal. Mana is the most restricted resource in the game. Sure, her highest mana bonus is nothing insane, but the spread and overall higher bonuses means that she basically always gets a decent swap, making her much more consistent than other walkers. I said it before, I will say it again: the mana bonuses are where you pay for your second/third color. It matters, and it matters a lot.

(An example: I have two very similar decks, one is on PMA-Lili, other is on Bolas GP. The gameplan is basically the same and so are the core cards. WIth Lili, I use basically zero protection and rely on just having the resources to reassemble, if greg disrupts me. Bolas has several ways of protecting the key cards, and still the deck is much easier to disrupt, just because of the 2-mana difference in their bonuses; Lili can just bounce back like nothing happened, Bolas needs every single mana he can get)

Janosik

@sarimace said:
Recently, grief was banned in paper legacy. The deck that used it had a busted GY strategy and backed it up by a very resilient tempo plan that did not rely on GY in any way. If you went too hard on GY hate, you watered down your plan too much and it just ran you over with the other parts of the plan. This is a similar case: you hate on the GY to mitigate her A1, and get obliterated by the rest of her plan.

Interestingly I was just thinking today about how an issue with Grist is her broad base of power. Clearly, the single most defining aspect of her power is the cheapness of her reanimation effect at 6 loyalty, which has been discussed at length here. I would argue tho that her second ability is also wildly overpowered.... perhaps not to the same extent as her first, but much more so than the other factors that also contribute to her strength (Which include: High mana bonuses compared to the average for PWs, High life total compared to the average for PWs, a rare passive ability, and we shouldn't forget those corrupt gems she generates cheaply which give her decent card advantage!) ([edit] Oh and I forgot her ultimate as well!)

Grist's ability to sweep away any support advantage you might be building up is a key aspect of her power IMO (It'll certainly sweep away that Aegis or Kitnap that Goz just recommended for keeping her in check!). I find playing against Grist absolutely involves shifting my strategy away from relying on supports.

My team-mate Shahper was asking me earlier today how I'd fix Grist and I said maybe she just shouldnt be SO good at multiple aspects of the game. Do any other PWs have the kind of support destroying ability that Grist does? Vraska, Lord Windgrace, Jace Reawakened, Dack, they all destroy just one support for 9 loyalty (sure, some of those abilities do something else, we can talk about that if you like ^_^). Karn Reflective Silver can blow up a lot of supports but he doesn't suppliment that with another non-ultimate ability which is also OP (honestly I never see people playing Karn2, personally I don't think he's good. He's like, fine in Colors of Magic until such time as he gets blown away by a Dakkon)

I looked at the paper version of Grist to see if she had this broad spread of powerful abilities and was surprised to see her 1st ability doesn't reanimate at all! Grist in paper MTG was not designed to have such a breadth of power as well as a depth of power, like she currently does in MTGPQ

(Shahper asked me how I'd fix Grist in MTGPQ, and I decided I'd take away her support destruction entirely, give her a 1st ability that looks a little like Ral Izzet Viceroy's, and shift her reanimation to ability 2 at a more respectable 12 or so. But that's just what I'd do, it would be quite a shift in her design philosophy to do that!)

---

One other thing came out of that conversation that I'd like to add. It seems undeniable to me that we've been through a period a power creep in the last year or so. If you'd submitted cards like Ghalta, or Req Raid, or Demo Field, or Desert, or Dragonhawk, or Rakdos, or Voltstrider to original MTGPQ developers Hibernum to put into the game in 2016, I think they'd think you were joking ^_^

I know some of you would disagree with this assessment (or, perhaps you'd agree that there's been power creep but think it's a good thing! I myself have mixed feelings about it), but hear me out:

Is it a good idea to power creep BOTH cards AND Planeswalkers at the same time? Does that not mean that the effect of one compounds the effects of another? Consider this: One of the mitigating factors that is often used to make powerful cards less powerful in MTG is to give them a high mana cost. But we have so many effects in MTGPQ that ignore mana costs right now, not just Grist, but Dragonhawk, Voltstrider, Villainous Wealth, The Key to the Vault... its a design decision that Webcore are really leaning into.

Synergies between OP effects (be they cards or PWs) create even more OP effects.

(To paraphrase MTG Hall of Famer Patrick Chapin: "Power creep feels so good while you're doing it. But you can't power creep forever")

---

@gozmaster said:
It's Ghalta's combination of "THAT much conversion" with "THAT big a body" that makes Ghalta unique.

Actually I'd like to disagree with this a little. Ghalta isn't actually that unique in Legacy... I could have put her into my 'all the green conversion cards' deck since she was printed, but I haven't. Here it is btw:

(I don't play this deck so much now that Desert exists!)

I agree with Goz that these two factors contribute to Ghalta's power, but I think the far more relevant factor is that mass conversion effects are a very bad idea. You'll notice that all the conversion cards in the deck above are very old, and that's because previous developers Oktagon just stopped making cards that instantly converted 15+ gems a long, long time ago (I was quite surprised when Cut Your Losses turned up in SNC, converting 10!)

Cards that are powerful enough to let you play your entire hand become ever more problematic when some of those other cards in your hand are also cards that are powerful enough to let you play your entire hand. You just need to draw some cards from somewhere and then you're off to the races.

Careful, Webcore. Printing too many mass conversion cards might lead to Standard becoming the same degenerate combo swamp as Legacy, and I doubt anybody wants that. Me, and Oktagon, might say that printing any mass conversion cards is a bad idea.

Janosik

@Janosik said:
Careful, Webcore. Printing too many mass conversion cards might lead to Standard becoming the same degenerate combo swamp as Legacy, and I doubt anybody wants that. Me, and Oktagon, might say that printing any mass conversion cards is a bad idea.

Webcore: "OK, shteev!"
runs off giggling to create Mystical Teachings

Fireguy

Alright I haven't had time to read all this but I have read most of it. I agree with Machine near the beginning of this discussion and Nalthazar here near the end. I think that Grist DOES need a slight nerf.

I don't struggle playing against her, I've never lost when it actually mattered or when I was taking my deck building seriously. However, I still support a slight nerf, primarily loyalty ability increase. First, second and third ability. They're a bit too efficient as is.

Primary reason though.. for what this means for future walkers. In games and entertainment, the temptation to top the previous set bar is constantly present. You can see this in everything. Bigger guns, explosions, stunts, let's make everything bigger and better right? That sound great, but, we all know it's dangerous and risky. I don't think that Grist is wayyyyy beyond the power creep where if a nerf is not done then the meta is destroyed and therefore game destroyed also, no. He's not that overpowered. However, I think that WebCore is playing with fire, because.... What's next? What's after Grist? When Grist get old and stale and we want a fresh new powerful walker will that PW be overpowered and begin to ruin the meta? Probably so. Grist is manageable as is, but I'm afraid for what the future brings if Grist is not nerfed. I don't want the continuous temptation of power creep to ruin the future of the game.

Let's do a slight nerf to Grist, not to save the current meta, I believe Grist is only somewhat impacting the meta, but to primarily stop power creep in it's beginning stages before it's too late.

gozmaster

@Janosik said:
Webcore: "OK, shteev!"
runs off giggling to create Mystical Teachings

Careful, That's MY Card. You leave it be. Ya Hear?

LOL AND GOT IT!

https://www.youtube.com/live/QRxXQ7Rn1b4?si=RKMHN52UjKtAB8md&t=1508