Grist needs nerfing. And a lot of it.

2

Comments

  • Xibvert
    Xibvert Posts: 101 Tile Toppler
    edited 16 October 2024, 20:37

    @Machine said:

    @Xibvert said:
    I'm

    You are overseeing the fact that Grist has 4 positive mana bonuses. All of them are boosted by 2 by Sunken Citadel, increasing all 4 of them by 2 for a total of +18. Dual walkers with +8 in total and +5 in their main colors only get an additional +4 from the Citadel.

    Okay but if Grist was 4/3/2/1/-2 Sunken Citadel would work exactly the same way with Grist that it does now. Are you saying it's not that the +10 total is a problem but that we just shouldn't have Planeswalkers with more than 3 positive mana bonuses? I've never heard anyone complain that it's a problem that planeswalkers like Teferi, Hero of Dominari or Nissa, Worldwaker have 4 positive mana bonuses. Usually the feedback is that they don't like those mana bonus spreads because you get less mana from matches of your Planeswalker's color(s).

  • Xibvert
    Xibvert Posts: 101 Tile Toppler

    The first ability is definitely the strongest. Saves you a ton of mana. Though if you use it without a creature in your graveyard it does sometimes fail to move a creature to the battlefield. Anyway main point is that I agree with TheHunter in regards to the mana bonuses not being a problem.

  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards

    old man in the game speaking... but nerfing problematic planeswalkers is something they've done in the past when some were too powerful compared to the others. When Kiora first launched, her first ability to ramp you and drain your opponent cost, I want to say 5 loyalty? it's been years ago now..

    Either way they realized how easily she was able, at the time, to lock you completely out of playing just by spamming her first ability every turn, and so raised the loyalty cost up to 9. They can absolutely change around existing planeswalker to make them more balanced, in the case of Grist it could be something as simple as increasing the loyalty cost to use her ability, or something like Kaya Orzhov Usurper where the reanimated creature has a mana cost cap, or even they could make it like the Reanimate spell in paper MTG where you get fireballed in the face for the mana cost of the creature you reanimate, making those 20+ mana creature hurt a lot more if you fill your deck with those.

    But as a counterplay... I kind of wish there were more abilities currently that could just clean out her graveyard. Leyline of the Void was reprinted in Duskmourn, but since they have it as an M20 card, it's not an option to slot into standard decks when facing off against her.

  • FCLedZep
    FCLedZep Posts: 15 Just Dropped In

    Personally I don’t think Grist needs nerfing. Is it a S Tier Planeswalker? Yes! Is it way better than the other S Tier Planeswalkers? I don’t think so. I am happy you now have another option to play. Will people play Grist most of the time? I don’t think so. In a game where a lot of people win above 95 % of the games there is nothing wrong with more powerful cards and Planeswalkers. People bought time and money to play with Grist so nerfing is the last thing you want to do. I don’t think it’s necessary right now.

  • Drag0n
    Drag0n Posts: 6 Just Dropped In

    Oh absolutely don't nerf it, people spent irl $$ to get it as it was released, or is there financial compensation for those who bought it, then to have it not be what they bought.
    I enjoy the challenge of facing grist, and I think its great to have mass control to remove supports, when there's so many enchantment decks, it evens it up.

  • Machine
    Machine Posts: 851 Critical Contributor

    @Xibvert said:

    @Machine said:

    @Xibvert said:
    I'm

    You are overseeing the fact that Grist has 4 positive mana bonuses. All of them are boosted by 2 by Sunken Citadel, increasing all 4 of them by 2 for a total of +18. Dual walkers with +8 in total and +5 in their main colors only get an additional +4 from the Citadel.

    Okay but if Grist was 4/3/2/1/-2 Sunken Citadel would work exactly the same way with Grist that it does now. Are you saying it's not that the +10 total is a problem but that we just shouldn't have Planeswalkers with more than 3 positive mana bonuses? I've never heard anyone complain that it's a problem that planeswalkers like Teferi, Hero of Dominari or Nissa, Worldwaker have 4 positive mana bonuses. Usually the feedback is that they don't like those mana bonus spreads because you get less mana from matches of your Planeswalker's color(s).

    No, I'm saying that the +10 bonus IS one of the problems, next to all the ups it already has. @TheHunter's post exactly reflects what is wrong with Grist. EVERYTHING is good without any drawbacks. Teferi HoD has 4 positive mana bonuses, but with a net of +8 (because dual walker). Nissa WW also has 4 positive mana bonuses, but with a net of +9 (because mono walker). I have no issues with that. Grist has 4 positive mana bonuses with a net of +10 while she / it /whatever is a dual walker. I have a problem with that. It adds insult to the injury, it adds to all the other ridiculous powers she / it /whatever already has.

  • Gideon
    Gideon Posts: 356 Mover and Shaker

    I agree with FCLedZep. That is all.

  • Scrounger
    Scrounger Posts: 67 Match Maker
    edited 30 October 2024, 04:17

    I don't support nerfing Grist. He's a very good PW, but he's a very good PW among several very good PW. I'm fine with that.

    And players can easily overcome him, mainly because the AI Greg is so bad at this game. Moreover, he relies on filling the graveyard, and there are ways to counteract that. For example, if you play Kaya, Orzhov Usurper it feels like you have krptonite facing superman. She removes his GY once her A1 is out, and her A1 is a token, so it's not hit by Grist's A2.

    As far as the mana bonuses, his net positive is greater than we've typically seen on PW, but things change. when passive abilities came out on mono-PW, that made them have an objective edge over older mono-PW that don't have passives, but so what? And the total mana bonus isn't that useful of a metric anyway. What's a better mana bonus, Grist's overall +10, which is spread among several colors and tops out at +4 (and it's not in Green), or a Green/Whatever dual color PW that has the following mana bonuses: +17 in green +3 in the other color of the PW, and -4 in the other three colors (for a total bonus of +8). I know which one I think is better, and it's not Grist. Moreover, I'm fine with them making PW that have a slightly higher net mana bonus than most other PW of that type, especially when the PW with the higher net bonus has the bonuses diluted amongst several colors. (while Sunken Citadel does help PW like Grist that have several positive mana bonuses, Sunken Citadel will rotate out of standard. PW shouldn't be nerfed based on a card that will rotate out of standard. If you feel that strongly about it, the solution would be to nerf the card, not the walker. But I also wouldn't be in favor of nerfing sunken citadel, and I don't even play that card despite owning it.)

    I bet that more people than normal used cash to buy Grist, and nerfing is going to rightly anger them.

    I remember PMA Ajani before the nerf, when he got a cat token at the end of every turn if he had full health and his loyalty abilities cost nothing (even less than Grist). That PW had more raw power than Grist -- the proof of that is that PMA Ajani is still a top-tier PW even after the nerf -- and I think the PW nerf should be rarely if ever used.

    Grist is very good. But I don't think he's at nerf levels of power. And I think focusing on his overall mana bonuses as some kind of definitive proof of him being worthy of a nerf is not persuasive.

  • gozmaster
    gozmaster Posts: 221 Tile Toppler

    Wow, Didn't even know this thread existed....

    So... No.. IMO, Grist is fine and doesn't need a nerf.

    I know... Many disagree. But as has been stated REPEATEDLY here...

    First it was Kiora, then it was and then ALL the others, including Dakkon, (Oof , remember how bad that was called for?) ...and now Grist.

    Pajani, you say? Yeah, that was one of the few I actually agreed with, but it was an obvious one.

    To be fair though, he was causing games to go 45 minutes+ at times, and WRECKING the play experience for nearly all players.

    And even after the nerf, he's STILL one of the best walkers in the game (For white at least)

    But Grist?

    Yes, Grist is VERY strong but again, as it's been pointed out by others, ... Did you lose to her or did you lose to the cards she's playing (Gitrog, Ghalta, Akul etc....)

    Yes, yes, it's a Grist fest in events, she's in all the kiddies' hands since she hit the streets for gold, and it seems every other match is against her... JUST like it was when Dakkon first hit for gold... But then... He just faded away. People got sick of playing with him ALL the time. And eventually the new flavor of the month-hate came out (Can't remember who though)

    So, yeah... Grist is hot right now... but Be honest, are you losing matches because of it?

    I didn't. Not one point to her in the last few events in either my Main or alt account (That owns grist too lol), at least not because of her, if I did (I'm causal player, remember), it was cause of mis-play, not curb stompings by G lady.

    A Tamiyo crushed me. A FRIGGEN Veiliana looped me to death. Even a Chronoclast made me lose points in an event (FRICKEN TIME BUBBLES!!!) But Grist?

    Nah Fam...

    And again I say... What is the point of a game? To NEVER lose a point? And anything that can give you a challenge should automatically get brought down to mediocre status? Damn, I hope not.

    Sigh... No, I believe you should be challenged. It's. A. Game. You win some, you lose some.

    I personally believe, you should have matches where you get powned by a good build/challenging walker, that you sideboard against specific walkers to keep from losing to their strengths, or pick walkers to counter play that work well (IE Kaya or Ashiok to kill the yard, but whatever)

    I think this adds an extra layer of fun and challenge for folks to HAVE to get better a deckbuilding, vs. just running the same deck as always and expecting the AI to lose every match.

    Not a fun way to play man. (Not to me at least)

    Now the reward structure that fosters this need for "Perfection"? Yeah that needs a GOOD overhauling. That way people care a little less about having to be perfect all the time. But alas, that is a different thread...

    Again, it's solitaire gaing...

    And it DOESN"T matter who's on the other side of the board... Just play your game, win your matches, and leave the walkers alone that other players, ESPECIALLY NEWER ONES are REALLY loving playing with. (Myself included)

    We'll bore of her eventually, and find a new flavor to move on to (for people to complain about. : P )

    Lol...

    I KNOW I"m being a bit harsh here, and you'll want to backlash... That's fine. I can take it.

    But the real concern I have here is for those newer players that invested their hard earned resources or IRL dollars for the walker...

    They invested in her to have a competitive walker that they're COUNTING on to improve their win percentages and actually compete with the bigger whales in the game (Especially against those that have GOD TIER collections but slum in Silver/Gold beating on noobs. Cool bro lol.

    To take away their new power toy because it challenges the established players "too much" , not cool man.

    Sigh... When WC nerfs this walker, which I expect they will because of all the salty tears I'm reading...

    ... Will there be a fair form of compensation for those that invested IRL cash for her?

    Gold back for the bait and switch?

    Bottom line, this walker isn't BAD for the game.

    She's fine.

    But my opinion is far outnumbered by those complaining.

    So we shall see.

  • Janosik
    Janosik Posts: 551 Critical Contributor

    @gozmaster said:
    First it was Kiora, then it was and then ALL the others, including Dakkon, (Oof , remember how bad that was called for?)

    You got links? I'm searching the forum and I don't see any threads about nerfing Dakkon...

  • Magic:PQ Support Team
    Magic:PQ Support Team ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 3,412 Chairperson of the Boards

    (Just popping in to say how much we appreciate the thoughtful discussions happening here!
    Reading your PoVs with so many examples, comparisons and rich argumentation is amazing! We're paying attention.
    Thank you all. And nevermind me, please carry on...)

  • gozmaster
    gozmaster Posts: 221 Tile Toppler

    @Janosik said:

    @gozmaster said:
    First it was Kiora, then it was and then ALL the others, including Dakkon, (Oof , remember how bad that was called for?)

    You got links? I'm searching the forum and I don't see any threads about nerfing Dakkon...

    Oof, when did He come out, like 2 years + ago... lol, I won't find a thread for you buddy, but I can tell you that I remember having heated conversations with folks in the content creator DMs and in game chat of people grumbling about him.

    Apparently, you never had people complain about him to you?

  • gozmaster
    gozmaster Posts: 221 Tile Toppler

    And a quick search in my Server found several comments saying just that... Nerf Dakkon. So just look in there. :tongue:@Janosik

  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,660 Chairperson of the Boards

    @gozmaster - remember this post when the new planeswalker have a passive that reads “I win”. The condescending attitude is beneath you (or at least I thoughts so).

  • gozmaster
    gozmaster Posts: 221 Tile Toppler

    @Tremayne , First off... Respect and big ups. Much respect homie... and if my post came across as condescending, wasn't my intent. (I write like I talk in my videos, the humor may not translate over in print thought. :tongue: )

    But again, I just don't think She's an issue.

    That said, There is a LOT of buzz right now calling for it, so it's not for nothing, but again, is it really that big of an issue?

    I'm asking cause I haven't seen it, my teams haven't been impacted by it (not more so than the other pain in the tail walkers) , and my Server isn't overflowing with calls to nerf her, (But I'll ask shortly)...

    ...So my point is, is she costing you /your team points?

    Now you know I like nice things, so a walker that reads "i win" is right up my alley :tongue: , but I also know when too much power is too much power, IE Pajani ...

    And even then, i wasn't in the camp of "nerf" , but I understood why it needed to be done. (At least I don't remember calling for him being nerfed, but that hardly means I'm remembering correctly :tongue: )

    Here though... I'm sorry man, I'm just not seeing it.

    But hey, It's not up to me, or to the vocal few calling out for it to be nerfed, it's up to the Devs to make that decision, and that's really the only opinion that matters.

    Appreciate your feedback Trem!

  • Tremayne
    Tremayne Posts: 1,660 Chairperson of the Boards

    @gozmaster - thank you for the reply. My view is that the powercreep is real. Grist is just a symbol of the problem.

    And just for the record, I don’t care about my win percentage, since I’m not playing competitive at this time.

  • ArielSira
    ArielSira Posts: 517 Critical Contributor

    I don't have Grist yet but don't mind playing against her. PMA Teferi or Lili9 can be harder to go up against (hard to come back to). So no nerf needed for me.

  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,955 Chairperson of the Boards

    Yes she is stupid overpowered and maybe too much, but any meaningful change to lower that power will be too negative a reception to be worth it

  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,955 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tremayne said:
    @gozmaster - thank you for the reply. My view is that the powercreep is real. Grist is just a symbol of the problem.

    And just for the record, I don’t care about my win percentage, since I’m not playing competitive at this time.

    Calling something symbol of a vague nebulous problem shouldn't equate to it needing a big change.

    First we have to identify what the issue is, and then what's causing it. One of my issues when facing her is that she can easily ramp into her first, which will bring a Ghalta into play, which then will fill her hand and bring in a Rakdos and Atraxa.

    To me, that's a Ghalta/Rakdos problem, not a Grist problem.

    Raising her loyalty ability costs would slow that down a bit, but it would also slow down other decks too, which I'm not in favor of.

    I think the issue is not so much her, but the cards she gets to have access to. She also happens to be the best Planeswalker to use those cards.

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