Grist needs nerfing. And a lot of it.

Tremayne

@Mainloop25 - maybe I’m unable to communicate my view properly due to English not being my first language.

But I’m certainly not following your point. Overpowered effects at a cheap price which requires even stronger effects for less in the next set, is a recurring problem in the recent sets from WebCore (in my opinion). Do you share that opinion? If not then the whole debate about Grist being a symbol is rather mute, I would think.

Secondly, Grist is part of the PM2 planeswalker set. They are all dual-color PW with a total mana bonus of 10. Just as the new Kaito is. So it would seem that alone is a strong indication for the “vague nebulous problem”. So I’m not dreaming up a problem, I’m highlighting a very real problem. A problem I think needs addressing by WebCore.

Thirdly, it seems (at least to me) that the defence of Grist focus on the cards as the problem. So maybe Grist current design is not a problem per se, but is a catalyst to highlight the problem with the cards. This is something interesting that I’ll have to consider some more.

Side note - There maybe a discrepancy between the first and third paragraphs, a change of opinion you might say. Perhaps there is, but if so that is because of this discussion that new opinions are formed.

Janosik

@Mainloop25 said:
Yes she is stupid overpowered and maybe too much, but any meaningful change to lower that power will be too negative a reception to be worth it

The Kiora nerf had a reaction and was worth it... The GTA/Ghalta nerf had a reaction and was worth it.

Also it's worth pointing out here that not everybody who paid cash money for Grist is going to be outraged; I paid cash for her and I think a nerf is warranted to balance her properly in the context of the game.

@Mainloop25 said:
First we have to identify what the issue is, and then what's causing it. One of my issues when facing her is that she can easily ramp into her first, which will bring a Ghalta into play, which then will fill her hand and bring in a Rakdos and Atraxa.

To me, that's a Ghalta/Rakdos problem, not a Grist problem.

You could be right here. Even post nerf, Ghalta is still extremely powerful (I would say 'too powerful'). The thing is... Are we only ever going to have to deal with those two cards being too powerful for Grist, or is Webcore going to continue to print new Standard cards on this sort of power level for Grist to abuse? Only they know the answer to that for definite, but I'd say signs point to yes. I don't know how many people paid $80 for Rakdos, but if enough of them did, they'd do it again. Dragonhawk certainly isn't the kind of card you'd make if you were committed to ending power creep.

@gozmaster said:

...So my point is, is she costing you /your team points?

It's certainly been most gratifying in this thread to learn that nobody ever loses points in a game! The funny thing is that when you look at the overall player coalition leaderboard run by @Larz70, it doesn't seem to confirm that data. Some of those lost points are a result of the continued instability of the game (which does have a habit of crashing at the most awkward moments!), but not all of them.

Sure, we all win a lot of the games we play, but one reason for that is because a lot of our games are played against The Wandering Emperor or Nahiri the Harbinger (real examples from today's Standard TG!). I still find myself occasionally playing against Nissa, Sage Animist in Legacy coalition events... Nissa and the rest of the Origins 5 PWs have been kept deliberately underpowered by the devs as a design choice (good for giving newbies the feeling of progression perhaps, but there's no reason I should play against them in Platinum tier!)

The existence of (too) many underpowered cards and planeswalkers in the game is not a good reason for not addressing overpowered ones. If you think the 'real problem' here is not that Grist is too powerful, but instead some fundamental, systemwide problem with the entire game, you can't fix that problem by not nerfing Grist, so perhaps let's limit ourselves, for the moment, to the problem at hand.

Sarah

@Mainloop25 said:
Yes she is stupid overpowered and maybe too much, but any meaningful change to lower that power will be too negative a reception to be worth it

That hasn’t stopped them in the past.

gozmaster

@Janosik said:
The existence of (too) many underpowered cards and planeswalkers in the game is not a good reason for not addressing overpowered ones. If you think the 'real problem' here is not that Grist is too powerful, but instead some fundamental, systemwide problem with the entire game, you can't fix that problem by not nerfing Grist, so perhaps let's limit ourselves, for the moment, to the problem at hand.

That's just it , I DON'T think she's overpowered.

Yes she's strong, VERY strong But not stronger than Dakkon, Again, I point to the reality of her impact against peoples' win rates.

Will people lose to her? Sure. Should she be "middled" to allow for those folks to never lose a point in game? Um.. no. Again, SHE's Fine.

Now, if in a few months the data bears out that people are losing even... what 20% of their games to an OP Grist.? Then I'd be happy to concede the issue, but again, I'm not hearing or seeing an impact in the meta that would call for ANY Adjustment to her.

It's an "Eye of the beholder" problem right now.

I'm hearing... "I "THINK" she's too powerful, and the other walkers in game aren't as good as her. And she should be nerfed to make her more middle like all the other walkers."

Why?

That's no fun, I like (And MANY players like) Playing with stronger walkers. We aren't complaining about the "power creep" because it's fun for us.

But again, if we're seeing a big impact to overall win rates facing her, then I believe that warrants a potential change, but (broken record time) we're NOT seeing those losses.

Further...

I took a poll in my server (giggle) about Nerf or No Nerf for grist...

About 75% of the calls were for NO NERF.

The other 25% admitted, it's not that they're losing to her, but they "THINK" She's too strong.

And frankly, that's not a good enough reason to take her down.

Respect my. man, you are a very smart guy and I value your thoughts on this matter, i do...

However, Until and unless we have data showing a SIGNIFICANT upswing in lose rates or something else that hinders game play besides "I don't like it"... I'm all ears ... Till then...

Leave my Grist alone.

Anywho...

To SPOILERS!

gozmaster

@Sarah said:
That hasn’t stopped them in the past.

I'd hope they learn from their mistakes.

Again, a MINORITY is complaining, the majority loves her, JUST the way she is. Leave her be.

Janosik

@gozmaster said:

@Sarah said:
That hasn’t stopped them in the past.

I'd hope they learn from their mistakes.

Again, a MINORITY is complaining, the majority loves her, JUST the way she is

Well, I for one am convinced by these objective facts

RUR_PL

I would like to see some slight change in her first to restrict her to resurect only creatures with mana cost to max 12-15 mana. At this point this ability is too powerful if she can summon on board any creature (see Ghalta combo).

naabaldan

Next pw 147 life
161 PW over all

Here is a different view
This games existence is based on earning money. We spend money things we want to own.
Are you willing to spend money on another pw that does not attract you at all?
The only reason would be to have a complete collection.

Conclusion:
We will see pw's with a larger life pool
Stronger abilities and more
The team is surely aware of the spiraling effect.

I am fine with that

As I stated earlier
Nerfing a pw should only be done because of a serious impact to the game
Otherwise it will spoil the investment made

Sarah

It’s pretty obvious that the content creators are worried about losing credibility if a product they recommended people buy with real money is nerfed and that’s understandable!

They could just say “See, I told you this was very good! Aren’t you glad you got to use it pre-nerf?” but I’m not sure they have thought of that.

I think understanding motivations is important here. There are people who worry about the health of the game and there are other people worried about losing face.

Ampersand

@Sarah said:
[...]

I think understanding motivations is important here. There are people who worry about the health of the game and there are other people worried about losing face.

I do not think it is wise to assume or impute the motivations of others unless you have a SIGNIFICANT amount of facts and data to support your assumption. Most of the time, the assumer's biases taint their perceptions of the other's "motivations".

naabaldan

__I do not think it is wise to assume or impute the motivations of others unless you have a SIGNIFICANT amount of facts and data to support your assumption. Most of the time, the assumer's biases taint their perceptions of the other's "motivations".
__
Well said. But what do you want to tell us?

gozmaster

@Sarah said:
It’s pretty obvious that the content creators are worried about losing credibility if a product they recommended people buy with real money is nerfed and that’s understandable!

Um... "Losing credibility"?

Have you SEEN my "Dack in the Vault" video?

What credibility? lol

And so we're clear, my motivations (I won't speak for the other content creators) is just to have fun reviewing and playing a game I love.

Hopefully I give some useful stuff to people that helps them win more.

Oh.... and of course to TAKE OVER THE WORLD AND SUBJECT ALL THE NERDS UNDER MY TYRANNY OF LOOP-FILLED OPPRESSIVE GAME TACTICS!!!!

MWUAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!

(I JUST need to figure out how to monetize that on youtube though...

i'll keep you all posted. )

gozmaster

@Janosik said:
Well, I for one am convinced by these objective facts

I think your facts aren't the same facts I'm looking at, thus not quite that "objective".

Again, have data? I'm in.

Have opinions? Well that's juuuuuust not good enough, because then the collective opinions to "not nerf" far outweigh those opinions that call for it.

And despite what you choose to believe, (again respectfully my friend) that's for you and the smaller group to bear.

Just as if, there was an majority calling for the nerf, as opposed to me in the minority of "no nerf" , I'd have to live with it.

Again, the ultimate decision is on WC.

We'll wait to see what they do, but as far as all the feedbackk I've collected...

Again, Sigh... She's fine.

Janosik

@gozmaster said:
Have opinions? Well that's juuuuuust not good enough, because then the collective opinions to "not nerf" far outweigh those opinions that call for it.

Cmon, Goz, this whole "You're opinions mean nothing but I objectively know you're wrong" routine is getting a bit much now ^_^

gozmaster

Oh, @Janosik , I'm not saying your opinions not valid man, Not what I was saying at all, just that if a small (Vocal) group doesn't like a thing, doesn't mean it should be adjusted.

Again, if there is enough data the proves out the issues, I'm game, make the needed adjustments, But I don't think we're seeing that here.

But Only Webcore has those answers.

Janosik

@gozmaster said:
Oh, @Janosik , I'm not saying your opinions not valid man, Not what I was saying at all, just that if a small (Vocal) group doesn't like a thing, doesn't mean it should be adjusted.

Again, if there is enough data the proves out the issues, I'm game, make the needed adjustments, But I don't think we're seeing that here.

But Only Webcore has those answers.

Goz... Neither of us know what % of the player base out there think Grist could do with a nerf, but this 'small vocal group' terminology is rather loaded with an unspoken assumption that nobody agrees with us, isn't it? Perhaps you're assuming that every MTGPQ player who hasn't posted in this specific thread thinks Grist doesn't need a nerf? Awfully big assumption, innit? I'm not assuming they all agree with me... I'm just raising my concerns. Ixnay on the allsmay ocalvay oupgray, please!

I have no doubt that in the informal conversations you have with your friends, that a lot of them tell you they like playing with OP planeswalkers. I'll let you in on a little secret.... when I'm grinding for crystals midweek, I like playing with OP planeswalkers too! Those PM2 cards are hella expensive, and while there's some great ones there's oh so few of them in a very big set, and I'm sure the last thing we all want is for those daily grind games to take up more of our time! (Note to Webcore: maybe make things a bit cheaper so we don't all burn out, thx!) I would just question whether the sum total of all these conversations you have translates to a) irrefutable knowledge of what the entire player hivemind thinks, and b) in itself a good reason not to fix a problematic area of the game anyway.

I expect you're right that Webcore does, indeed have the data. It's hard for us players to tell how many more games Grist is winning compared with other planeswalkers (I'll be honest, I did giggle a bit when you said you hadn't lost against Grist in the last few coalition events, given that the last two were SoFT1 and SoFT2!), but I expect Webcore are keeping track of that. If I was them I'd probably look into whether players coasting on the extreme power of Grist is cutting into their profits, too ^_^

Mainloop25

@Tremayne said:
@Mainloop25 - maybe I’m unable to communicate my view properly due to English not being my first language.

But I’m certainly not following your point. Overpowered effects at a cheap price which requires even stronger effects for less in the next set, is a recurring problem in the recent sets from WebCore (in my opinion). Do you share that opinion? If not then the whole debate about Grist being a symbol is rather mute, I would think.

Secondly, Grist is part of the PM2 planeswalker set. They are all dual-color PW with a total mana bonus of 10. Just as the new Kaito is. So it would seem that alone is a strong indication for the “vague nebulous problem”. So I’m not dreaming up a problem, I’m highlighting a very real problem. A problem I think needs addressing by WebCore.

Thirdly, it seems (at least to me) that the defence of Grist focus on the cards as the problem. So maybe Grist current design is not a problem per se, but is a catalyst to highlight the problem with the cards. This is something interesting that I’ll have to consider some more.

Side note - There maybe a discrepancy between the first and third paragraphs, a change of opinion you might say. Perhaps there is, but if so that is because of this discussion that new opinions are formed.

I was saying that because "powercreep is real" is just a statement with nothing behind it. Now, you did bring new information to support your claim in this comment, so I can address that now.

First paragraph: That's an interesting point, and I'll admit I haven't thought enough about it. To me this is more of an issue with the cards in Standard right now. What is Grist right now? To me she has a big gravitational pull because of cards like Ghalta, Rakdos, Demolition Field, and other cards that are at a similar level. That reminds me of when Dakkon first came out and everyone was running Faithbound Judge, and/or M5/Rocco/Xander builds. Calls to nerf Dakkon were few and far between sure, but the idea behind the nerf was to tune down the effectiveness of those combos. Then Liliana came out, and the calls to nerf her were strong there (admittedly I was one of them). The meta eventually sorted itself out as new cards came in and others rotated out.

I think that the power level of MKM and OTJ together turned out to be too high, and the consequence of single-card gem conversion bombs like Ghalta and Tempt end up warping the power level, which I think they recognized, and have been avoided since. This makes me believe that they are aware of some mistakes that were made in the design phase, and will slowly work themselves out.

Second paragraph: I just don't really agree that the mana bonus spread is that big a deal. Grist's mana gains wouldn't even be an issue if she didn't have access to green. Being able to boost her mana bonuses across the board with Sunken Citadel is a consequence of Sunken Citadel's strength and shouldn't count against Grist. Kaito 3 and Kaito 2 have essentially the same mana bonuses, but their abilities aren't that powerful so neither PW gets as much use as Grist.

Third papagraph: What seems to be thought of as the biggest problem with Grist is the ease of pulling powerful creatures out of the graveyard for such a low loyalty cost. But would we be this worried about it if the creatures themselves weren't so absurdly powerful? I don't think so. The ability would either have to be severely nerfed or completely redesigned in order to make this not an issue, but the player base would IMO be justifiably upset by this, and why I think it's just a bit too late to do this.

I think at this point the only way to combat this is for Webcore to be more mindful of the type of effects that creatures have, especially on ETB, and not make the mistake of giving us overpowered creatures in the future.

Mainloop25

@Janosik said:

@Mainloop25 said:
Yes she is stupid overpowered and maybe too much, but any meaningful change to lower that power will be too negative a reception to be worth it

The Kiora nerf had a reaction and was worth it... The GTA/Ghalta nerf had a reaction and was worth it.

Also it's worth pointing out here that not everybody who paid cash money for Grist is going to be outraged; I paid cash for her and I think a nerf is warranted to balance her properly in the context of the game.

@Mainloop25 said:
First we have to identify what the issue is, and then what's causing it. One of my issues when facing her is that she can easily ramp into her first, which will bring a Ghalta into play, which then will fill her hand and bring in a Rakdos and Atraxa.

To me, that's a Ghalta/Rakdos problem, not a Grist problem.

You could be right here. Even post nerf, Ghalta is still extremely powerful (I would say 'too powerful'). The thing is... Are we only ever going to have to deal with those two cards being too powerful for Grist, or is Webcore going to continue to print new Standard cards on this sort of power level for Grist to abuse? Only they know the answer to that for definite, but I'd say signs point to yes. I don't know how many people paid $80 for Rakdos, but if enough of them did, they'd do it again. Dragonhawk certainly isn't the kind of card you'd make if you were committed to ending power creep.

@gozmaster said:

...So my point is, is she costing you /your team points?

It's certainly been most gratifying in this thread to learn that nobody ever loses points in a game! The funny thing is that when you look at the overall player coalition leaderboard run by @Larz70, it doesn't seem to confirm that data. Some of those lost points are a result of the continued instability of the game (which does have a habit of crashing at the most awkward moments!), but not all of them.

Sure, we all win a lot of the games we play, but one reason for that is because a lot of our games are played against The Wandering Emperor or Nahiri the Harbinger (real examples from today's Standard TG!). I still find myself occasionally playing against Nissa, Sage Animist in Legacy coalition events... Nissa and the rest of the Origins 5 PWs have been kept deliberately underpowered by the devs as a design choice (good for giving newbies the feeling of progression perhaps, but there's no reason I should play against them in Platinum tier!)

The existence of (too) many underpowered cards and planeswalkers in the game is not a good reason for not addressing overpowered ones. If you think the 'real problem' here is not that Grist is too powerful, but instead some fundamental, systemwide problem with the entire game, you can't fix that problem by not nerfing Grist, so perhaps let's limit ourselves, for the moment, to the problem at hand.

More people will be upset than not, and I don't think they can afford to upset the paying customer base at this point. I totally agree that some changes are worth it. I was around for the Baral nerf. Upset a lot of people. Many players quit over it. But it was necessary, for sure. But I think if you ran a poll on that card, or pre-nerf Ajani, or maybe even Veiliana, the majority would have been in favor. I think most people were in favor of the GTA nerf, though I do think it was partly because none of those cards were paid exclusives.

"Are we only ever going to have to deal with those two cards being too powerful for Grist, or is Webcore going to continue to print new Standard cards on this sort of power level for Grist to abuse? Only they know the answer to that for definite, but I'd say signs point to yes."

I am not so sure about that. I think they quickly realized that these single-card conversion bombs like Ghalta/Tempt/Golden Wish were too strong, and we haven't seen them since. However, if they do end up giving us more in the next set, then I'll eat my words and be right with you there. (Though I love mass conversion cards and personally have lots of fun with them, so I kinda do want them to keep making them. Selfish, I know)

Dragonhawk is strong but not nearly as oppressive as Ghalta or Rakdos. At least you can still put things into play without the resignation of knowing that it's going to be wiped off the board at the end of your opponent's turn, like against Rakdos. Dragonhawk is probably an acceptable power ceiling of creature design, and Webcore shouldn't go past that ceiling, in my opinion.

"The existence of (too) many underpowered cards and planeswalkers in the game is not a good reason for not addressing overpowered ones. If you think the 'real problem' here is not that Grist is too powerful, but instead some fundamental, systemwide problem with the entire game, you can't fix that problem by not nerfing Grist, so perhaps let's limit ourselves, for the moment, to the problem at hand."

By that same logic, nerfing Grist won't fix it either. I do think this issue boils down more to card design than Grist's design. Like I said before, maybe she is too overpowered if we look at just that as an idea. But the consequences of any sort of nerf go beyond just the in-game experience.

Sarah

“ More people will be upset than not, and I don't think they can afford to upset the paying customer base at this point.”

There are a lot of things that they can’t seem to afford, aren’t there?

• beta testing & quality control
• customer service and social media relations
• a dedicated discord server
• new story mode

Janosik

@Mainloop25 said:
More people will be upset than not, and I don't think they can afford to upset the paying customer base at this point.

I do wish the content creators would stop presenting their opinions about what every player thinks as objective fact, and I worry that because they have such a close relationship with Webcore, Webcore are more likely to take their words on face value. Please remember that some of us are actually out here talking to players while the content creators are spending hours squirrelled away in their video production dens wrestling with editing software!