Grist needs nerfing. And a lot of it.

Tremayne

@Mainloop25 - maybe I’m unable to communicate my view properly due to English not being my first language.

But I’m certainly not following your point. Overpowered effects at a cheap price which requires even stronger effects for less in the next set, is a recurring problem in the recent sets from WebCore (in my opinion). Do you share that opinion? If not then the whole debate about Grist being a symbol is rather mute, I would think.

Secondly, Grist is part of the PM2 planeswalker set. They are all dual-color PW with a total mana bonus of 10. Just as the new Kaito is. So it would seem that alone is a strong indication for the “vague nebulous problem”. So I’m not dreaming up a problem, I’m highlighting a very real problem. A problem I think needs addressing by WebCore.

Thirdly, it seems (at least to me) that the defence of Grist focus on the cards as the problem. So maybe Grist current design is not a problem per se, but is a catalyst to highlight the problem with the cards. This is something interesting that I’ll have to consider some more.

Side note - There maybe a discrepancy between the first and third paragraphs, a change of opinion you might say. Perhaps there is, but if so that is because of this discussion that new opinions are formed.

Janosik

@Mainloop25 said:
Yes she is stupid overpowered and maybe too much, but any meaningful change to lower that power will be too negative a reception to be worth it

The Kiora nerf had a reaction and was worth it... The GTA/Ghalta nerf had a reaction and was worth it.

Also it's worth pointing out here that not everybody who paid cash money for Grist is going to be outraged; I paid cash for her and I think a nerf is warranted to balance her properly in the context of the game.

@Mainloop25 said:
First we have to identify what the issue is, and then what's causing it. One of my issues when facing her is that she can easily ramp into her first, which will bring a Ghalta into play, which then will fill her hand and bring in a Rakdos and Atraxa.

To me, that's a Ghalta/Rakdos problem, not a Grist problem.

You could be right here. Even post nerf, Ghalta is still extremely powerful (I would say 'too powerful'). The thing is... Are we only ever going to have to deal with those two cards being too powerful for Grist, or is Webcore going to continue to print new Standard cards on this sort of power level for Grist to abuse? Only they know the answer to that for definite, but I'd say signs point to yes. I don't know how many people paid $80 for Rakdos, but if enough of them did, they'd do it again. Dragonhawk certainly isn't the kind of card you'd make if you were committed to ending power creep.

@gozmaster said:

...So my point is, is she costing you /your team points?

It's certainly been most gratifying in this thread to learn that nobody ever loses points in a game! The funny thing is that when you look at the overall player coalition leaderboard run by @Larz70, it doesn't seem to confirm that data. Some of those lost points are a result of the continued instability of the game (which does have a habit of crashing at the most awkward moments!), but not all of them.

Sure, we all win a lot of the games we play, but one reason for that is because a lot of our games are played against The Wandering Emperor or Nahiri the Harbinger (real examples from today's Standard TG!). I still find myself occasionally playing against Nissa, Sage Animist in Legacy coalition events... Nissa and the rest of the Origins 5 PWs have been kept deliberately underpowered by the devs as a design choice (good for giving newbies the feeling of progression perhaps, but there's no reason I should play against them in Platinum tier!)

The existence of (too) many underpowered cards and planeswalkers in the game is not a good reason for not addressing overpowered ones. If you think the 'real problem' here is not that Grist is too powerful, but instead some fundamental, systemwide problem with the entire game, you can't fix that problem by not nerfing Grist, so perhaps let's limit ourselves, for the moment, to the problem at hand.

Sarah

@Mainloop25 said:
Yes she is stupid overpowered and maybe too much, but any meaningful change to lower that power will be too negative a reception to be worth it

That hasn’t stopped them in the past.

gozmaster

@Janosik said:
The existence of (too) many underpowered cards and planeswalkers in the game is not a good reason for not addressing overpowered ones. If you think the 'real problem' here is not that Grist is too powerful, but instead some fundamental, systemwide problem with the entire game, you can't fix that problem by not nerfing Grist, so perhaps let's limit ourselves, for the moment, to the problem at hand.

That's just it , I DON'T think she's overpowered.

Yes she's strong, VERY strong But not stronger than Dakkon, Again, I point to the reality of her impact against peoples' win rates.

Will people lose to her? Sure. Should she be "middled" to allow for those folks to never lose a point in game? Um.. no. Again, SHE's Fine.

Now, if in a few months the data bears out that people are losing even... what 20% of their games to an OP Grist.? Then I'd be happy to concede the issue, but again, I'm not hearing or seeing an impact in the meta that would call for ANY Adjustment to her.

It's an "Eye of the beholder" problem right now.

I'm hearing... "I "THINK" she's too powerful, and the other walkers in game aren't as good as her. And she should be nerfed to make her more middle like all the other walkers."

Why?

That's no fun, I like (And MANY players like) Playing with stronger walkers. We aren't complaining about the "power creep" because it's fun for us.

But again, if we're seeing a big impact to overall win rates facing her, then I believe that warrants a potential change, but (broken record time) we're NOT seeing those losses.

Further...

I took a poll in my server (giggle) about Nerf or No Nerf for grist...

About 75% of the calls were for NO NERF.

The other 25% admitted, it's not that they're losing to her, but they "THINK" She's too strong.

And frankly, that's not a good enough reason to take her down.

Respect my. man, you are a very smart guy and I value your thoughts on this matter, i do...

However, Until and unless we have data showing a SIGNIFICANT upswing in lose rates or something else that hinders game play besides "I don't like it"... I'm all ears ... Till then...

Leave my Grist alone.

Anywho...

To SPOILERS!

gozmaster

@Sarah said:
That hasn’t stopped them in the past.

I'd hope they learn from their mistakes.

Again, a MINORITY is complaining, the majority loves her, JUST the way she is. Leave her be.

Janosik

@gozmaster said:

@Sarah said:
That hasn’t stopped them in the past.

I'd hope they learn from their mistakes.

Again, a MINORITY is complaining, the majority loves her, JUST the way she is

Well, I for one am convinced by these objective facts