Grist needs nerfing. And a lot of it.

Stratus

So, Grist went unnerfed for the Duskmourn update. I will repeat in more detail what is wrong is with it at the moment and hope @Magic:PQ Support Team can read this, because there are glaring problems with the PW and they matter to the game experience.

0) In game mana bonuses are actually at the moment W(+1) U(0) B(+4) R(+2) G(+3). That is net plus 10, which is more than any monocolored PW, which is out of line from the general mana bonus principles since usually two-color PWs get a net plus 8.

1) The first ability is too cheap for its ability. Only 6 loyalty for reanimation? That’s insanely cheap and creates a snowballing mana advantage in case of bringing back high-value creatures (so many options for that even in Standard). It should not be this easy to spam repeatedly value on the board.

2) The second ability annihilates practically all opposing relevant supports. While some support degradation is okay, the current magnitude saps the juice out of all the strategies that would otherwise be suited to tackle Grist. To kill supports so widely kills also the strategies more reliant on spells and combos forcing to play mirror matches against Grist.

3) The third ability is also too cheap for its effect. With right amount of graveyard fill this kills opponents outright. To compare with: Dakkon and Liliana of the Veil have costlier ultimates and they are not impossible to come back from. If you want to keep this as same as possible, at least put a max cap for the numbers or restrict the scope of what gets exiled. The magnitude of creating Insect tokens is at the same time both an aggro move and a huge anti-aggro move that turns tables quickly for aggro and midrange players. It’s not rare to witness getting dealt 50 or over 60 damage and equally many Insect tokens forcing to have an answer the very next turn or perish.

In conclusion: there are clear oversights in this PW’s mana bonuses and its general power level considerations that I’m surprised this version has been let live so long. This PW needs a lot nerfing work to be done.

Machine

I predicted to my team mates that this topic would sooner or later pop up. I think you nailed it with all 4 of your points. Grist is way too powerful. And, in addition to all that you mentioned here, he also has one of the biggest HP stack of all the walkers out there.

Tremayne

I agree with you - I’m just not sure this is actually the problem. Grist is just a symptom of the classic problem MTGPQ faces every time a new developer takes charge of the game. I’m of course talking about Power creep.

There are serious power creep issues across the last 3 rotating sets and Dusk seems to ramp it up instead of dialing it down. Bloom was focused on small creatures so it wasn’t as glaringly obvious (usually power creep comes in the form of high P/T creatures with low cost) but there are some powerful effects there that are fast (and cheap).

Don’t get me started on PM2 which is great because PM2 revitalises old mechanics, but awfully imbalanced when looking at the effects to mana cost.

I don’t know if the power creep is a result of inexperience or if it is the devs answer to players complaining about slow and tedious matches. If it is the last then bigger, cheaper and broad-ranging effects for low cost is not the way to fix the very old problem of a slow and cumbersome UI.

Tremayne

BTW the new Kaito also have a total of plus 10 to mana bonus. So Grist is on par.

Is it a new normal? Then again the latest Chandra (hopes beacon has only plus 9). So not sure what the devs are up to

NickBKK

I have already started worrying about the upcoming Liliana.

naabaldan

Nerf Liliana of the veil
Nerf Dakkon
Nerf Ajani PMA
Nerf Teferi Chronoclast

No!

I played a lot against Grist since made available and never lost or match or an objective.

Those bubble decks were more of a thread.

We've lost some powerful control cards with the latest set rotation that needs to be filled. That would be my solution.

Machine

@Tremayne said:
BTW the new Kaito also have a total of plus 10 to mana bonus. So Grist is on par.

Is it a new normal? Then again the latest Chandra (hopes beacon has only plus 9). So not sure what the devs are up to

That's a strange conclusion. If Grist has an abnormal mana bonus and the new Kaito has it too, than Grist is OK? No, both are deviating from the norm that dual color walkers have a total mana bonus of +8.

Tremayne

@Machine - I think you are missing the point. I would have thought that the OP was right about the total mana bonus was wrong.
My expectation was also that a dual walker was supposed to have a total of 8, but apparently the devs are releasing several dual-walkers with a total of 10, so this lead me to the conclusion that the mana bonus was perhaps not 8 but 10 from now on.

Do I agree with this change? Well, as a player I’m not sure it is a good idea.

It could just be that the devs are running low of ways to get players to spend money on MTGPQ, so with this move they have made a lot of old walkers (even more) obsolete.

Janosik

@Tremayne said:
(usually power creep comes in the form of high P/T creatures with low cost)

We are, indeed, deep in the wilds of Power Creep right now in MTGPQ, but this is not really the form that power creep takes in MTGPQ.

The problem is not making slightly larger creatures for slightly smaller costs, the problem is the enormous advantage generated by cards like Rakdos, Patron of Chaos, or Demolition Field, or Dragonhawk. I name 3 cards there but there are many more cards which are clearly overpowered in the top tier of Standard atm... nerfing just these 3 cards won't fix anything . The top tier of cards in Standard generate so much value at the moment that you can use any old thing as a win condition.

Do Webcore know what they're doing? Hard to say. I suspect they knew what they were doing when they charged $80 for Rakdos, Patron of Chaos.

Am I looking at Overlord of the Balemurk right? It gives you a completely free card, of any cost, every turn, and it's going to cost you 3 mana to put into play on the turn you draw it? (Or is it 6 mana? I find Impending confusing). Does that seem like a good idea? Blossoming Tortoise deserved a nerf, but this is OK? I see they're selling Overlord of the Floodpits for money. Do we think they knew they'd pushed the power level of that card too?

Back to Grist specifically... I do think Grist's power level ranks alongside the tier 1 of Standard cards which I would describe as clearly overpowered. Blowing up 3 supports is clearly way above the power level of most support destruction cards, past or present, and grabbing a Ghalta, or Rakdos, or Overlord from the graveyard for 6 loyalty is... well let's just say... very cheap. Ghalta, btw: still way overpowered post nerf.

TBH... I'm not sure the game is totally broken at the moment because of these broken cards. I own all of them, and I have some fun playing against Greg when he has a bunch of them too. Not so much fun in all the games where Greg is trying to play with fair cards, which Greg loses badly, but MTGPQ has always been like that, hasn't it... when you get to the top, you expect to win the vast majority of your games.

Two things to watch out for tho:

1) We have quite a lot of new recruits coming into the FTA discord atm (big shout to @Sarah who is recruiting like an absolute trooper right now!) and they are getting really destroyed by these overpowered cards. Hard to grow the player base when new recruits aren't having fun (mind you, I suspect pitting new recruits up against impossible odds right from the start is probably a deliberate strategy to get the whales spending ASAP...)

2) You can't power creep forever, or the game will absolutely break.

TheHunter

@naabaldan said:
Nerf Liliana of the veil
Nerf Dakkon
Nerf Ajani PMA
Nerf Teferi Chronoclast

No!

I played a lot against Grist since made available and never lost or match or an objective.

Those bubble decks were more of a thread.

We've lost some powerful control cards with the latest set rotation that needs to be filled. That would be my solution.

PMA Ajani was nerfed, because it was stupid powerful and ruining the game experience. There's nothing wrong with recognising a card or a walker is overpowered and needs balancing for the sake of the player experience. I have Grist and enjoy playing with it, but I also think it's A1 and A2 abilities are too cheap by far. Remember when we thought Nicol Bolas God Pharoah was a horrible beast to face? It looks like a joke now, with a +7 net mana bonus and an A3 similar to Grist's A1 but costs 21 loyalty!

naabaldan

Ok, besides the fact that I stil don't think we should nerf PW's:
What happens to the community when one is nerfed? complains.

One complain for sure: "I spend real money, now the pw is worthless!"

Until a PW is not so overpowered that I lose match after match a nerf is not needed.

We have currently at 160! PW's and before we start calling for nerfs we should better ask for rebalanced old or older PW that are neglectated by far. Like 5% to 10% of all PW are used heavily the rest is hoping for a event were their abilities are usefull.

Janosik

@naabaldan said:
Ok, besides the fact that I still don't think we should nerf PW's:
What happens to the community when one is nerfed? complains.

And here we are, still playing the game, what, 7 or 8 years after all those complaints about Kiora being nerfed?
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/51575/hey-devs-stop-placating-the-whining-noobs
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/51538/stop-complaining-about-everything

Sometimes things are unpopular with some people, yes, but are those people a majority, and is that change good for the continued health of the game?

naabaldan

Btw I am not complaining.

This will happen when the nerf is done.

How many active users has this forum and how many users are actively playing mtgpq? I wonder what number the majority is...

Tremayne

@Janosik - you are right the problem right now is not insanely high P/T-creatures for ridiculously low mana cost (but that was the easy way to spot a power creep - at least in the old days) but the insanely powerful effects at very low costs.

I haven’t begun looking at the overlords but impending seems to only affect the overlord card and reduce their own P/T thereby making cheap overlords weak creatures with possibly strong effects.

@naabaldan - yes we are a very small percentage of the player base (I hope) but still my view is guided by what I think is good for the game and particularly what improves the chances of getting new players to join (and stay apart of) the community/game.

naabaldan

Ok, did you try to set up a new account to start all over again? What PW's you will choose first to take the most advantage from being a masterful member of this community?

I did.
My choices were
Ajani PMA maxed
Tamiyo maxed
Dakkon maxed
Lord Windgrace maxed
Liliana of the Veil Level 1
Sarkhan Unbroken maxed
And finally Grist Level 52

The account is now 18 month old and I did not spend any real money.
Still at bronce level.

Without a vital PW and with a very limited number of cards it isn't that easy to build decks that are able the be perfect in coalition events. A powerful PW is much more essential than playing with all available card including pma, pma2 and DSK.
Think about it.

Tremayne

@naabaldan - interesting experiment. Can’t say I have done that - frankly I don’t have the time. Maybe you have more recent experiences of the issue discussed here.

However, do you seriously mean that a new player has to be able to play perfectly in coalition events? That seems totally skewed in my view.

Of course my experience as a new player was in an app that was very young, but isn’t a new player supposed to be focused on the story mode? How long did that take you to get through on your new account?

I’ll stop since we are definitely bordering on going off topic.

Machine

@Tremayne said:
@Machine - I think you are missing the point. I would have thought that the OP was right about the total mana bonus was wrong.
My expectation was also that a dual walker was supposed to have a total of 8, but apparently the devs are releasing several dual-walkers with a total of 10, so this lead me to the conclusion that the mana bonus was perhaps not 8 but 10 from now on.

Do I agree with this change? Well, as a player I’m not sure it is a good idea.

It could just be that the devs are running low of ways to get players to spend money on MTGPQ, so with this move they have made a lot of old walkers (even more) obsolete.

Then let us agree that this game has crossed the boundary and finds itself now in power creep territory. Something I said months ago when Villainous Wealth was spoiled. I don't think this is the way the game should go. History already has proven what happens. Newer players will bail even faster because the can't keep up with all the power they have to face. I also warned the @Magic:PQ Support Team , but never received a reply to that, of course.

Janosik

@Janosik said:
Am I looking at Overlord of the Balemurk right? It gives you a completely free card, of any cost, every turn, and it's going to cost you 3 mana to put into play on the turn you draw it? (Or is it 6 mana? I find Impending confusing). Does that seem like a good idea? Blossoming Tortoise deserved a nerf, but this is OK?

Incidentally.... it turns out I was not looking at Overlord of the Balemurk right, since it puts cards into your hand, not into play ^_^

Xibvert

I'm okay with Planeswalkers with scatter mana bonuses having a higher total. When people have the choice between a planeswalker having 5/5/0/0/-2 verses 4/3/2/1/-2 they usually prefer the first option because you get more from matches in your best colors. Since you'll often have to the option to choose your best color as the color you match with your swap you can get more mana and you're also getting more value from adding conversion to your best colors even though the total bonuses are the same. If all they're doing is swapping out that -2 for a 0 on the mana bonus pattern that tends to be less useful then that doesn't seem like a problem. It's more trying to make things more even for planeswalkers with scattered mana bonuses to be able to keep up in terms of mana produced with the planeswalkers who have more focused mana bonuses. You were already avoiding matches in that -2 color any, now you get an extra 2 mana when you make that worst case match that you're still avoiding anyway because you'd rather be matching in the color that's 4 or 3. I've thought for a while that they should take the spread of the mana bones into account when deciding the total mana bonuses rather than basing it solely on how many colors the Planeswalker is.

Machine

@Xibvert said:
I'm okay with Planeswalkers with scatter mana bonuses having a higher total. When people have the choice between a planeswalker having 5/5/0/0/-2 verses 4/3/2/1/-2 they usually prefer the first option because you get more from matches in your best colors. Since you'll often have to the option to choose your best color as the color you match with your swap you can get more mana and you're also getting more value from adding conversion to your best colors even though the total bonuses are the same. If all they're doing is swapping out that -2 for a 0 on the mana bonus pattern that tends to be less useful then that doesn't seem like a problem. It's more trying to make things more even for planeswalkers with scattered mana bonuses to be able to keep up in terms of mana produced with the planeswalkers who have more focused mana bonuses. You were already avoiding matches in that -2 color any, now you get an extra 2 mana when you make that worst case match that you're still avoiding anyway because you'd rather be matching in the color that's 4 or 3. I've thought for a while that they should take the spread of the mana bones into account when deciding the total mana bonuses rather than basing it solely on how many colors the Planeswalker is.

You are overseeing the fact that Grist has 4 positive mana bonuses. All of them are boosted by 2 by Sunken Citadel, increasing all 4 of them by 2 for a total of +18. Dual walkers with +8 in total and +5 in their main colors only get an additional +4 from the Citadel.

naabaldan

Add Hall of Gemstone to your + mana bonus list