PVP Supports: Feedback Thread

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  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,744 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 2 July 2024, 22:00

    I just fought a Dr. Thor and Chi team that fired Shang's purple it's first three turns. I still won, but come on. That's really what we are doing?

  • WilliamK1983
    WilliamK1983 Posts: 1,007 Chairperson of the Boards

    At this point I'd be fine with no supports in the game at all.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,956 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Borstock said:
    I just fought a Dr. Thor and Chi team that fired Shang's purple it's first three turns. I still won, but come on. That's really what we are doing?

    I wonder how folks would like it if they started putting (optimized) supports on PvE enemies? Imagine some of the challenge nodes with Infinity Stones...

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,276 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Borstock said:
    I just fought a Dr. Thor and Chi team that fired Shang's purple it's first three turns. I still won, but come on. That's really what we are doing?

    Between this and Spectacular Strategy it seems like we are in need of a support that reduces enemy the enemy Crit multiplier to 0.0 so that all critical matches do 0 damage :)

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,956 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Scofie said:
    I think there are 2 schools of thought here: Playing for placement and playing for wins. It seems the first group are in general, unhappy with supports in PvP and the second group are, generally happy, though this is based upon one event.

    My view - I was never competing for anything other than T25 at best or T50. For the Trenchcoat event I finished 51st after dropping 2 places in the last seconds. My score was not great, I got hit way more than before, but wins were easier and quicker. I played an extra few matches as a result.

    Overall it was pretty much the same for me. I can see the need for more shields now though and understand how it could be very expensive HP-wise. But the extra rewards from shielding aren't worth the HP to me, so I'll not bother much and I'll take the hits and lost points and hit back a bit more. It's added a bit more thinking and a bit more trying to beat the team in front of me rather just playing with my best characters.

    I think we're seeing a few different groups of players.

    Competitive high-end PvP players seem to universally hate this. We already play fast, and supports can make fights go faster, but that's often not necessary. Supports can also make fights significantly slower, or cause us to take much more damage, because we're fighting against other high level players with optimized support stacks. It basically just injects a bunch of randomness into almost every fight.

    Noncompetitive players seem more split, and I think it's strictly down to how well they've optimized their own supports, vs how well other players at their tiers have done so. If you're a lower-tier player and you've been paying attention to supports/had the opportunity to earn them/have the key ones levelled up, you're going to have a massive, MASSIVE advantage over more casual players who didn't do those things.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,744 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 3 July 2024, 00:41

    Another fun one: I just lost to that dang 1*-5Spidey three times in a row because boosts let them start with 12 purple.

    I hate this.

  • _TrashPanda
    _TrashPanda Posts: 101 Tile Toppler

    @dianetics said:

    @obikenobi12 said:
    Yeah i just ocnfirmed this. Maybe the devs should make it so supports don't trigger when the supported character is stunned at the start of a match. I had thought this was happening but it was just because the other enemies didn't proc their starting ap stuff because the % chance didn't go. My bad...sorry if i mislead anyone. Even still, i think Chasm is still a good character to use against teams with the start of battle AP gains since he drains enemy AP and you can use supports that also drain enemies AP too

    We don't want this at all. Either supports are in or out, and we don't want 1 single character able to bypass that. Then we are stuck back to a year ago.

    Agreed. It would suck for Chasm era to come back. He's already still too prevalent in SIM as it is

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Borstock said:
    I just fought a Dr. Thor and Chi team that fired Shang's purple it's first three turns. I still won, but come on. That's really what we are doing?

    This happened to me also. The only saving grace was that the AI still sucks at using Shang's purple but it still hit hard and hurt and I won by my fingertips.

    At this point I can't decide if this is all crazy fun or terrible disaster.

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 535 Critical Contributor

    @Borstock said:
    Another fun one: I just lost to that dang 1*-5Spidey three times in a row because boosts let them start with 12 purple.

    I hate this.

    Were you forced to take these fights?

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Borstock said:
    I just fought a Dr. Thor and Chi team that fired Shang's purple it's first three turns. I still won, but come on. That's really what we are doing?

    This happened to me also. The only saving grace was that the AI still sucks at using Shang's purple but it still hit hard and hurt and I won by my fingertips.

    At this point I can't decide if this is all crazy fun or terrible disaster.

    Or just pick your targets better like 99% of us have too anyway. I easily climbed to goals without hitting a single juggs and Spider team. Just like I have to avoid many other teams pre supports in PVP.

    Eh, it happens. I made it too and with a terrible boost week to boot, I was just commenting on a shared experience not wailing into the cold night about the injustice of it all. Like I said, I'm not even decided on this yet, it is waaaay too early to say this is the end of the world.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    I wonder how folks would like it if they started putting (optimized) supports on PvE enemies? Imagine some of the challenge nodes with Infinity Stones...

    I would love it. I mean imagine having to actually take notice. I'd also love it if the green node whose name I cannot remember was infinite. So it added 50 levels to the AI every time you cleared it. Make it less about pure speed and who was prepared to go further and use their roster. PVE is a joke at our level now, I'd welcome things to make it harder and not just about speed.

    Bring back Heroic PvE? I quite liked it when we did that Boss Event when it was use only Dark Avengers. Of course some of the affiliations are still chock-a-block with great characters but taking on PvE with the Runaways might be interesting or something.

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 535 Critical Contributor

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Borstock said:
    I just fought a Dr. Thor and Chi team that fired Shang's purple it's first three turns. I still won, but come on. That's really what we are doing?

    This happened to me also. The only saving grace was that the AI still sucks at using Shang's purple but it still hit hard and hurt and I won by my fingertips.

    At this point I can't decide if this is all crazy fun or terrible disaster.

    Or just pick your targets better like 99% of us have too anyway. I easily climbed to goals without hitting a single juggs and Spider team. Just like I have to avoid many other teams pre supports in PVP.

    It's too easy to say, "just skip more." It is possible ... and IME, common ... to get saddled with an endless loop of the same 3-5 targets. Skip all you want, you're going to see an endless loop of A, B, C ... and in some events some boost weeks, in which a singular optimal team emerges, those Qs may very well be all the exact same. And not fights you would choose, if given a choice. Thus my question to Borstock ... it may sound silly to do the same thing and eat an adverse result 3x, but he may not have had a choice.

    Was to avoid or escape this problem are several ... play very late in the event, stay at a low (sub 800) score, take a break and come back several hours later, take one of the fights and win or lose ... but these aren't always possible or desirable.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    Maybe the Devs could consider taking the 1* out of the boost list and see if that helps?

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,846 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 3 July 2024, 14:46

    @DAZ0273 said:
    Maybe the Devs could consider taking the 1* out of the boost list and see if that helps?

    So every tier below 5 should suffer because they did this thing?

    I realize people leave the 1 tier quickly but an ascended 1-2 or 1-3 Spidey or Juggs or Yelena can be a very good choice especially boosted. The players who are ascending them should be able to use them.

    They painted themselves into a corner (not the first time) by not correctly assessing the value of these characters who are easily leveled as 5s and with cheap hard hitting powers are monsters who are better than like 3/4 of the natural 5s.

    Then supports came in. In pve my best choice is often a supported 1-5 boosted Spidey with a support giving me purple to start. In PvP even unsupported he’s incredibly good boosted (some ap boosts helped). Now with supports….yeah.

    Selling 1-5s for $20 was way too low really unless you failed to assess their play value accurately. As reward engines, fine. But many are much more than that.

  • 658_2
    658_2 Posts: 235 Tile Toppler

    Rebalances come out at a snail’s pace because the devs have to be careful not to release a power out of band, but support combos giving 12 ap, 83k extra health, crit multipliers up to 3.4x….kosher.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bluewolf said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    Maybe the Devs could consider taking the 1* out of the boost list and see if that helps?

    So every tier below 5 should suffer because they did this thing?

    I realize people leave the 1 tier quickly but an ascended 1-2 or 1-3 Spidey or Juggs or Yelena can be a very good choice especially boosted. The players who are ascending them should be able to use them.

    They painted themselves into a corner (not the first time) by not correctly assessing the value of these characters who are easily leveled as 5s and with cheap hard hitting powers are monsters who are better than like 3/4 of the natural 5s.

    Then supports came in. In pve my best choice is often a supported 1-5 boosted Spidey with a support giving me purple to start. In PvP even unsupported he’s incredibly good boosted (some ap boosts helped). Now with supports….yeah.

    Selling 1-5s for $20 was way too low really unless you failed to assess their play value accurately. As reward engines, fine. But many are much more than that.

    Obviously an unpopular suggestion, lol!

    Personally I haven't seen a single 1* that isn't 5* Ascended. I can't tell you what it looks like below my MMR. I don't even know if people are using their non 1s ascended to 5* in lower tiers, maybe they are but I dunno.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,956 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:
    Maybe the Devs could consider taking the 1* out of the boost list and see if that helps?

    I don't think this is a "1* at 672"-exclusive problem. Being able to start with a free cast of something like boosted ascended Killmonger's red, or Karnak's blue, or 4* Nightcrawler purple is just as problematic, if not more so.

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