*****Victor Mancha (Victorious)*****

entrailbucket

Chasm/Hulk was actually a hard counter to SW/Colossus. It was impossible to kill the immortal guys using the defensive duo.

Ok, what happened to the meta before Okoye? I think that was Gambit...I can't remember what happened to him, though.

What about the one before him? Oml/Phoenix? Hmmm. What about all those Bishop teams everybody ran in shield sim?

Well, surely if we go back further we'll find more examples of an overpowered meta team that was addressed by power creep. XForce/4thor? Sentry? 3* Spiderman? Magneto? Ragnarok?

Huh. Maybe the metagame really does only change if there's a nerf or a very hard counter (that the current team can't beat).

turbomoose

The first pic of this character looks like Christopher Walken to me

Second picture I agree is very much Syndrome

Daredevil217

@entrailbucket said:
Chasm/Hulk was actually a hard counter to SW/Colossus. It was impossible to kill the immortal guys using the defensive duo.

Ok, what happened to the meta before Okoye? I think that was Gambit...I can't remember what happened to him, though.

What about the one before him? Oml/Phoenix? Hmmm. What about all those Bishop teams everybody ran in shield sim?

Well, surely if we go back further we'll find more examples of an overpowered meta team that was addressed by power creep. XForce/4thor? Sentry? 3* Spiderman? Magneto? Ragnarok?

Huh. Maybe the metagame really does only change if there's a nerf or a very hard counter (that the current team can't beat).

I said that nerfing is one of the three ways the meta can shift, lol. Sometimes I think you just like arguing for the sake of it without reading. If you read what I wrote, we’re actually in agreement. I just don’t agree that nerfing is the ONLY way the meta can shift.

GrimSkald

@entrailbucket said:
Chasm/Hulk was actually a hard counter to SW/Colossus. It was impossible to kill the immortal guys using the defensive duo.

Ok, what happened to the meta before Okoye? I think that was Gambit...I can't remember what happened to him, though.

What about the one before him? Oml/Phoenix? Hmmm. What about all those Bishop teams everybody ran in shield sim?

Well, surely if we go back further we'll find more examples of an overpowered meta team that was addressed by power creep. XForce/4thor? Sentry? 3* Spiderman? Magneto? Ragnarok?

Huh. Maybe the metagame really does only change if there's a nerf or a very hard counter (that the current team can't beat).

Gambit was nerfed. He was too good - you could generally fire his red by turn three without even matching red and frequently that would set up the end of the game. In the current meta if he was back to pre-nerf levels he would still be OP though there are combos that would give him trouble, and I don't think he was so OP that many boosted characters wouldn't be better than an unboosted Gambit.
He was nerfed all the way down to like D tier, too. I have to say, I'm really glad that didn't happen to Chasm - he still has some solid uses.

entrailbucket

@Daredevil217 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Chasm/Hulk was actually a hard counter to SW/Colossus. It was impossible to kill the immortal guys using the defensive duo.

Ok, what happened to the meta before Okoye? I think that was Gambit...I can't remember what happened to him, though.

What about the one before him? Oml/Phoenix? Hmmm. What about all those Bishop teams everybody ran in shield sim?

Well, surely if we go back further we'll find more examples of an overpowered meta team that was addressed by power creep. XForce/4thor? Sentry? 3* Spiderman? Magneto? Ragnarok?

Huh. Maybe the metagame really does only change if there's a nerf or a very hard counter (that the current team can't beat).

I said that nerfing is one of the three ways the meta can shift, lol. Sometimes I think you just like arguing for the sake of it without reading. If you read what I wrote, we’re actually in agreement. I just don’t agree that nerfing is the ONLY way the meta can shift.

99% of the time it's a nerf. A hard counter basically has the same effect, plus they're awful at making those successfully. Your third case, power creep, has happened like twice ever (the transition to 4* and the transition to 5*).

If you want the metagame to change (without a new star tier), you're asking for a nerf. Characterizing players who are sick of 100% m'Thor 100% of the time as "whiners" who are "begging" for a nerf seems to indicate how you feel about them.

Otherwise... they can continue to release good characters who are completely DOA because the game is dominated by one overpowered character.

BlackBoltRocks

And here we go again. For once it's not entrail's fault; twas lupus caerulus who put words in his mouth. Entrail was simply pointing out how overshadowed Victor (and the majority of 5s) is by Jane. No way does that equate to calling for a nerf to Jane.

As for Syndrome...I just can't see a use for his Locked tile mechanisms. You'd rather just steal them or get rid of them altogether.

His Black, as some people here have pointed out, would be so much better if it instantly destroyed Shrapnel tiles like 3* Victor does.

His Blue seems like he's just oppressing himself. Why reduce the stuns, especially given how many characters spam special tiles? It'd be so much better if he did something like convert enemy special tiles to Charged tiles or even Shrapnel tiles instead. If it were the latter, then this power could fuel the other two.

His Red is fully dependent on Shrapnel tiles to do damage, and there are only 3 ways to achieve that: 7 Black AP (creates up to 3 tiles); his passive Blue, which requires him to tank); or 6 Red AP (creates 2 tiles). He should really just be passively creating a Shrapnel tile at the start of each turn.

Seems like 5/3/5 is the way to go. I'll champ him and use him regardless cos I like trying out new characters, but right now he looks like a dud, especially in this era of Ascension, where 3* characters are scaling way beyond their 5* counterparts.

KGB

@BlackBoltRocks said:
His Blue seems like he's just oppressing himself. Why reduce the stuns, especially given how many characters spam special tiles? It'd be so much better if he did something like convert enemy special tiles to Charged tiles or even Shrapnel tiles instead. If it were the latter, then this power could fuel the other two.

I read his Blue as doing 2 separate things (450 - 5 covers):
1) If the enemy team doesn't use special tiles (as lots don't) he gives you a 4 turn stun and 8905 damage.
2) If the enemy team does use specials, it locks up to 6 of them and decreases the stun time down to 1 based on number locked and does the 8905 damage.

So the stun + damage part is there so it's worth spending 8 ap on and to give him a solid power vs non special tile using teams (4 turn stun is very handy). The locking part is as you say pointless vs SAP users but will have value against CDs/Repeaters.

KGB

Daredevil217

@entrailbucket said:

@Daredevil217 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Chasm/Hulk was actually a hard counter to SW/Colossus. It was impossible to kill the immortal guys using the defensive duo.

Ok, what happened to the meta before Okoye? I think that was Gambit...I can't remember what happened to him, though.

What about the one before him? Oml/Phoenix? Hmmm. What about all those Bishop teams everybody ran in shield sim?

Well, surely if we go back further we'll find more examples of an overpowered meta team that was addressed by power creep. XForce/4thor? Sentry? 3* Spiderman? Magneto? Ragnarok?

Huh. Maybe the metagame really does only change if there's a nerf or a very hard counter (that the current team can't beat).

I said that nerfing is one of the three ways the meta can shift, lol. Sometimes I think you just like arguing for the sake of it without reading. If you read what I wrote, we’re actually in agreement. I just don’t agree that nerfing is the ONLY way the meta can shift.

99% of the time it's a nerf. A hard counter basically has the same effect, plus they're awful at making those successfully. Your third case, power creep, has happened like twice ever (the transition to 4* and the transition to 5*).

If you want the metagame to change (without a new star tier), you're asking for a nerf. Characterizing players who are sick of 100% m'Thor 100% of the time as "whiners" who are "begging" for a nerf seems to indicate how you feel about them.

Otherwise... they can continue to release good characters who are completely DOA because the game is dominated by one overpowered character.

The thing is I don’t really see players whining about Thor in droves (so please don’t put words in my mouth). That was more in reference to Chasm/Bishop dominating pretty much EVERY thread (I was one of those whiners btw). Thor being complained about in every thread is really like 1-2 people. If she was getting the kind of backlash Bishop got… I’d be assuming nerf. I mean it could still happen. But it will probably be awhile. The fact that not one counter has been released to her kit yet is telling to me. The kind of backlash Thor gets is the kind Thorkoye or BRB/Kitty got. More, “ugh PVP is boring”. Versus “PvP is unplayable!” At least that’s my take. That’s usually the case with dominant glass cannon metas versus defensively oppressive metas.

Either way it’s whatever to me. I really like Thor and did the moment she was released (her straight chaos is fun). But if she’s nerfed (or more likely a new meta is released) I’m ready to ride the next wave.

@GrimSkald said:

@entrailbucket said:
Chasm/Hulk was actually a hard counter to SW/Colossus. It was impossible to kill the immortal guys using the defensive duo.

Ok, what happened to the meta before Okoye? I think that was Gambit...I can't remember what happened to him, though.

What about the one before him? Oml/Phoenix? Hmmm. What about all those Bishop teams everybody ran in shield sim?

Well, surely if we go back further we'll find more examples of an overpowered meta team that was addressed by power creep. XForce/4thor? Sentry? 3* Spiderman? Magneto? Ragnarok?

Huh. Maybe the metagame really does only change if there's a nerf or a very hard counter (that the current team can't beat).

Gambit was nerfed. He was too good - you could generally fire his red by turn three without even matching red and frequently that would set up the end of the game. In the current meta if he was back to pre-nerf levels he would still be OP though there are combos that would give him trouble, and I don't think he was so OP that many boosted characters wouldn't be better than an unboosted Gambit.
He was nerfed all the way down to like D tier, too. I have to say, I'm really glad that didn't happen to Chasm - he still has some solid uses.

This right here is so true. Chasm was a great nerf. I see him at 1800 up in shield sim way more than Thor. Which is impressive for a nerfed character (but also speaks to how OP Chasm was pre-nerf). I was skipping those teams hunting for Jane but they were hard to find. I love that they kept his core in tact. Wish I had a 550 myself because he has so many useful tools still.

entrailbucket

A "glass cannon" in this game doesn't usually have 400,000HP. I'd be fine with a true glass cannon character, who 550d out at 70 or 80k.

I do see people complaining about her. I also see people complaining about how objectively useful, strong new characters (like this guy) are weak or useless, and that's because of her.

I suspect that daredevil complained about Chasm and Bishop, but not m'Thor, because he invested significant resources into maxing her out, but not the other two. (Fwiw my m'Thor is 550 as well, and I hope they nerf her into "usable only when boosted," so others can get a chance to shine).

Bowgentle

Come on, she has 400k at 672, not 550.
Shang has 138k at 550, and he's the very definition of a glass cannon AND HE TRUE HEALS.
Let it go.

entrailbucket

Ok. Let's get back to Victorious. Anybody excited to run him in the current meta?

revskip

@entrailbucket said:
Ok. Let's get back to Victorious. Anybody excited to run him in the current meta?

Why would you? You can just run mThor and a boosted. Or mThor and Shang and shield earlier.

DAZ0273

@turbomoose said:
The first pic of this character looks like Christopher Walken to me

Second picture I agree is very much Syndrome

I was looking for a Christopher Walken movie quote here and the best I could come up with was "Less talkie-talkie, more ping pong" so you gotta picture Syndrome with a table tennis bat to get the full effect.

concillado

Regarding the primary feeder change for Gertrude from Ultron to Victor and including Karolina Dean in this feeder scheme, I cannot fathom why, oh why?, they didnt just use Karolina as link between Victor3/5?... unless the devs have secret wet dreams for Karolina feeding a new 5*? ;-)

I have obtained a ludicrous amount of Karolina covers in my Classic pulls, so I am of course biased by this ;-)

bluewolf

@MoosePrime said:

@entrailbucket said:

@tiomono said:
Do charged tiles count as enemy special tiles for the purpose of locking? If so you won't get a cheap stun vs drThor but you may be able to slow her roll.

I don't think anybody "owns" charged tiles, but maybe?

They are "owned" in some aspect. 4* Gamora will count purple charged tiles created by her teammates as "friendly special tiles" for the auto-downing passive of her black.

To hazard a guess, I do not think 4Gam thinks the tiles are owned by her team. I think the game is looking to make sure all the basic purple tiles are covered by friendly SAPs.

Web tiles would be another tile that are ownerless yet special and I’m curious how she treats those.

I bet if you ran 4Gam against Mthor and could get enough black AP/purple specials out, you could down someone regardless of who made any purple charged tiles. Good luck, of course, given Mthor board shake constantly churning the tiles and bringing in fresh ones. You’d need a lot of black AP stored up, most likely.

Daredevil217

I apologize for my part in taking yet another thread off topic going back and forth with EB. I realize it’s the same arguments in every thread. So I’ve put him on ignore for a while in hopes of doing my part in keeping things on topic. Again, I apologize.

I think people are focusing on the alternate black because it’s the most unique power in the kit. But I think his best utility will be the 4 turn stun for 8 AP. I don’t know that there is a better stun in the tier. And stun is one of the best base powers in the game. So I think he’ll be better than people think. I’ll be curious to see how often you get the 4 in practice. Against Colossus/Omega for example you’ll lock the CD and then get all 4 turns. Same with Colossus/Scarlet Witch and her repeater. Chasm/Hulk and Thor/Shang don’t rely on specials, so you’ll get the 4 there as well.

My hope is once Omega/Switch’s tiles are locked, they don’t create new ones and I believe they will. It says “if one doesn’t exist”. It does exist. It’s just locked. Having them function this way could actually give some utility because locking would be better than matching a tile like that that just comes back next turn (in the case of OR, even when he’s stunned!)

Edit: Just locked Pestilence Spores with Bag-Man and sure enough it created a new tile the next turn. Locked tiles really should prevent new ones from occurring while one is on the board. That would be a decent buff to one of the worst mechanics in the game.

DAZ0273

@concillado said:
Regarding the primary feeder change for Gertrude from Ultron to Victor and including Karolina Dean in this feeder scheme, I cannot fathom why, oh why?, they didnt just use Karolina as link between Victor3/5?... unless the devs have secret wet dreams for Karolina feeding a new 5*? ;-)

I have obtained a ludicrous amount of Karolina covers in my Classic pulls, so I am of course biased by this ;-)

I suspect you have answered your own question!

DAZ0273

@Daredevil217 said:
I apologize for my part in taking yet another thread off topic going back and forth with EB. I realize it’s the same arguments in every thread. So I’ve put him on ignore for a while in hopes of doing my part in keeping things on topic. Again, I apologize.

I think people are focusing on the alternate black because it’s the most unique power in the kit. But I think his best utility will be the 4 turn stun for 8 AP. I don’t know that there is a better stun in the tier. And stun is one of the best base powers in the game. So I think he’ll be better than people think. I’ll be curious to see how often you get the 4 in practice. Against Colossus/Omega for example you’ll lock the CD and then get all 4 turns. Same with Colossus/Scarlet Witch and her repeater. Chasm/Hulk and Thor/Shang don’t rely on specials, so you’ll get the 4 there as well.

My hope is once Omega/Switch’s tiles are locked, they don’t create new ones and I believe they will. It says “if one doesn’t exist”. It does exist. It’s just locked. Having them function this way could actually give some utility because locking would be better than matching a tile like that that just comes back next turn (in the case of OR, even when he’s stunned!)

Edit: Just locked Pestilence Spores with Bag-Man and sure enough it created a new tile the next turn. Locked tiles really should prevent new ones from occurring while one is on the board. That would be a decent buff to one of the worst mechanics in the game.

So you created Schrödinger's Pestilence Spore?

Bowgentle

So he's completely useless, cool.

KGB

@Daredevil217 said:
I think people are focusing on the alternate black because it’s the most unique power in the kit. But I think his best utility will be the 4 turn stun for 8 AP. I don’t know that there is a better stun in the tier. And stun is one of the best base powers in the game. So I think he’ll be better than people think.

I agree with this line of thinking. That 4 turn stun will be his best power by far. Not sure if it's best in tier though unless you mean pure 5 star character since an ascended Polaris gets the same 4 turn stun for 1 less AP and generates strikes (vs his extra damage). Plus there is ascended 4 star Iceman with 4 turns for 6 AP and so on.

KGB

P.S. I just saw your report that locking up pestilence spores doesn't prevent a new one from being made. That's a disappointment for sure as it would have helped against not just Omega but also 5 star Switch etc.